The Instigator
Nicoszon_the_Great
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Finalfan
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Homogeny between Christianity and Evolutionary Theory, including the Big Bang and all such theories

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Finalfan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/10/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 914 times Debate No: 45612
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (1)

 

Nicoszon_the_Great

Pro

I believe that the theories of evolution, biological and astronomical, can exist within the Christian faith. According to the Bible, Genesis Chapter one, God created the earth in seven days.

My first argument is that the translation of the word 'day' is a misinterpretation. This video () describes the mistranslation. I would like to note that this video should not be take from start to finish, I refer only to the part of it that covers this point. The basic idea is that the original Hebrew term used in Genesis has several meanings, two of which being 'day' and 'an unknowable period of time' and when being translated into Greek, then Latin, then the various forms of English it was simplified down to 'day'. So by placing the translation 'an unknowable period of time' where 'day' is stated during the first chapter, the theory that the Earth was formed over a very long period of time and that species developed over very long periods of time stands.

My second point is the positioning of the events of creation. In Genesis, it says that God first created the heavens and the Earth, planetary/solar/and galactic formation; he made the firmament, the formation of the atmosphere; he divided the waters and the land, pangea's formation; the development of plant life, then fish, then animals, then birds and finally man. This coincides with evolutionary theory very closely.

My third and final argument the symbolism of the second chapter of genesis. Many theologians and religious authorities have stated that Genesis, chapter 2 is a more symbolic message rather than an accurate representation of history. This is bolstered by the fact that the second chapter directly contradicts the first chapter by placing the creation of man before the creation of all other semi-sentient life which comes before the creation of woman even though chapter one clearly states that Man and Woman were created AFTER all other creatures as well as simultaneously.

I look forward to debating this and am willing to debate with either a creationist or atheist/agnostic who does not share my belief.
Finalfan

Con

Since I do not need to convince you that evolution is provable fact. I hope to help you understand that the Hebrew bible cannot coexist harmoniously with evolution, or even the big bang! I have read that many Christians including cardinals and arch bishop's have been slowly adapting their religion to fit the concept of evolution into their doctrine. When a Christian does not accept evolution it is because the obvious contradictions to the central tenants of their faith! Here is my understanding of Christianity at its core and why it does not fit into the model of our observable existence:

1. God willed the universe into existence. This interpretation is literal or just filling the gap in an attempt to explain "the beginning"! Whether 6 day's means 24 hour days or era's. It would not explain the time necessary for evolution to take place! Human evolution took place 5 million years ago. This process was not random chance but a series of mutations spanning millions of years while adapting to environment! 6000- 12000 years is a far cry from the time it took to evolve into what we are today!

2. God created Adam from mud and eve from his rib. The Adam and Eve story is the catalyst for original sin. Regardless if you believe the story to be literal or not it is one of the pillars that keep Christianity intact. Evolution has no room for Eden. Summary: no talking snake = original sin does not exist!

3. The central tenant in Christianity is John 3:16; where it clearly shows the "savior" had destroyed "original sin"! Millions of Christians today (and billions who have died) all believed and worshipped this savior! So I ask; Savior from What? How could Jesus play this role if Adam had never eaten the fruit?)

4. Noah's flood: Despite 49% of Americans believing in the story of Noah. No observable evidence supports the concept. None at all! Noah's ark is eclipsed by evolution where the exodus of man did not occur (along with the migrating of animals from Mount Ararat) Again very important story to illustrate the lack of validity in the bible! All while using the same procedures that prove evolutions legitimacy!

5. In conclusion: No "Original Sin", "Savior", or "hell"= No Christianity

Now to address "The big bang theory"! The evidence for this does not coexist with the Christian God. In fact they are both opposing answers to the question "Where did the matter come from that created the stars?" The big bang theory is not quite as provable as evolution but it does give an answer to the mystery of how we got here. I see all God's in history as "the God's of the Gaps"! They fill in when evidence does not support your notions! Like where does rain come from? Until we discovered CLOUDS, we made up a rain God. As our understanding of our world and universe grows the need for GOG (God of Gap) shrinks. We live in a time where very few gaps remain (The beginning, the end, Consciousness, or the illusion of free will or sin) The bible does provide a gap filled but as the pattern goes.. just because we do not know.. does not mean GOD! I tell you this because the big bang theory to me is just a slightly more possible reason for the famous gap known as "Genesis"
Debate Round No. 1
Nicoszon_the_Great

Pro

I would like to point out that I may have failed to display the purpose of this debate. I am not searching for an argument on the validity of christianity, but rather one on if christians can follow the theories of evolution. Any statements made that sum up to 'no because you're wrong' aren't progressive or warranted in this discussion.

Now, towards your arguments against the word usage in genesis. To say that "Whether 6 day's means 24 hour days or era's. It would not explain the time necessary for evolution to take place!" I disagree. As I stated before, the original hebrew word 'yom' can mean an 'unknowable period of time' meaning that the writer had no direct way to translate the exact amount of time elapsed during creation. I'm sure we both can agree that the early civilisations had no need for the words 'billions' or 'millions' so this does in fact allow for the time period in which evolution takes place. The first chapter of Genesis describes six simplified stages of planetary evolution, rather than six days, years, thousand years, millions or billions.

The symbolism of the second chapter of genesis, the chapter in which Adam and Eve are created and eat the apple, is very direct. And like you said, earlier Christians who had no way of grasping the science of creation did take this as the one and only truth, however this fact does not mean that the christian faith itself must think so as well when evidence is so prominent.

As to your third argument, it is irrelevant to such a debate. The Eden story describes, through symbolism, man's tendencies to sin. These tendencies are what Christ saves us from, but once again this isn't relevant.

Noah's flood is, I admit, a mystery to me. I've no true evidence to support it nor will I attempt to. Perhaps it's symbolic or just an over exaggeration of a post-ice age flood. I will give you this part of the debate.

I'm sure you've heard the argument 'well what made the big bang?! It MUST be God!'
I would replace 'must' with 'may'. As you said, the big bang is not quite provable yet, and until we begin exploring deeper into space we'll have to deal with that. However, the theory itself does not remove the necessity for a god UNTIL someone can prove where the singularity and all the matter and energy it held came from. I will state that there is a chance I am wrong, however you share that chance.

I would also like to point out that the bible itself is NOT a science textbook, therefor some misinterpretation or misinformation towards scientific subjects is forgivable. The ignorance of the reader is the dangerous factor.
Finalfan

Con

I would like to point out that I may have failed to display the purpose of this debate. I am not searching for an argument on the validity of Christianity"

Unfortunately that is exactly what this debate is about. The reason they are not homogeneous is because they are opposing positions in our understanding of the universe. The bible proposes the genesis story while science proposes the Big bang theory and evolution. Believing that they can fit together harmoniously is a fallacy! It would be just like believing that our current understanding of reproductive science can work together with proponents of the "stork theory" to understand where babies come from!

" 'yom' can mean an 'unknowable period of time' meaning that the writer had no direct way to translate the exact amount of time elapsed during creation"

The human being who wrote the book of Genesis did so from the earth with limited knowledge of the planet and zero knowledge of anything outside of our atmosphere. He wrote Genesis from a geocentric perspective. To him the Earth was an endless plane and he had written that the sun, moon, and stars were all created at the exact same time. The earth and light were created before the stars! He even made plants before he made the sun. He wrote God said "Let there be light"! He wrote this without an understanding that our sun was a star. Or that The sun is what makes the day/ night cycle. Or that plants could not exist before sunlight! Also somehow, it took God 4 days to create the earth and only an instant to create the vast Universe! Do you see How Genesis is the "stork theory" compared to the big bang?

"The first chapter of Genesis describes six simplified stages of planetary evolution, rather than six days, years, thousand years, millions or billions."

I'm sorry but you are reaching! Genesis only shows the lack of credibility of the author when contemplating the origins of our universe. It is in no way compatible with the big bang theory or evolution! If you accept evolution or BBT. You are implying that the bible is not an accurate account of our beginnings!

"As to your third argument, it is irrelevant to such a debate. The Eden story describes, through symbolism, man's tendencies to sin. These tendencies are what Christ saves us from, but once again this isn't relevant."

Not irrelevant.. tantamount! The story of Adam and Eve does not represent human sin. In fact Adam and Eve were without sin. It was the snake that introduce this concept. If Lucifer did not tempt Adam and Eve to eat the fruit.. then there is no Original sin. This is the glue that holds the Christian house of cards together! Jesus Died for the sin of Adam. That is the story. You can't backpedal and make this fit if you do not believe in the literal interpretation of Adam and Eve. Same thing with Noahs Flood. If you are telling me that never happened. Why believe anything the bible says? The flood was suppose to be our Exodus story where we are all part of Noah's lineage! How can something like that be wrong but end up in a book known as the "perfect word of God"? Can you not see why this is unsettling to me?

I never said that "God" has nothing to do with our origins. I'm just saying it is not the "God" from the old testament and the people who wrote about "God" did so from their imagination! The bible presents myths and fables while science produces facts and evidence. Two completely different schools of thought and absolutely not compatible!

Ken Hamm, Frank Turek, and Ray Comfort are representing your view. While Richard Dawkins, Robert Krauss, and Bill Nye are representing my view. I have seen debates between all cndidates in this same argument where it becomes painfully obvious that they cannot piece Christianity and Science together. Just thought you should know this is not just a debate between us. It is very public. If you decided to watch those debates. I think you would have a better understanding of where I am coming from. I am not trying to demean your faith. I am simply implying that you are wrong in your assumption!
Debate Round No. 2
Nicoszon_the_Great

Pro

Nicoszon_the_Great forfeited this round.
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Nicoszon_the_Great

Pro

Nicoszon_the_Great forfeited this round.
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Nicoszon_the_Great

Pro

Nicoszon_the_Great forfeited this round.
Finalfan

Con

Finalfan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Nicoszon_the_Great 2 years ago
Nicoszon_the_Great
3 months later, I willfully state that I lost this argument big time and actually came around to rejecting christianity all together.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Finalfan, we all have a clue. To say we don't have a clue is to be willfully ignorant. I was searching untill I found Jesus was knocking at my door all along wanting to come in and be my life. His life is eternal life which He wants to give to you. He came down from heaven to seek and to save those who are lost. You can stop searching and stop being lost and be found by Him. Stop pretending you can't hear Him knocking at your hearts door. If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Receive him by faith as your Saviour. He is the Light of the world. Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
He came to His own (the Jews) and His own did not recieve Him, they crucified Him. He rose from the grave because He had no sin to hold him in death, He died to pay for your sins so you could be pardoned from paying in hell forever. To all who receive Him, He gives the power to become the sons of God. Why not stop searching and stop being frustrated? Let Him find you. He knows where you are and he loves you.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
of course you hope hell fire is not real when you don't want to admit that you deserve to die and pay for your sins in the fire of hell, and you don't want Jesus Christ to be your life, your Saviour, your Lord because you know He will change you and you will have to agree with God in taking sides against your own sin no matter how much pleasure your sin gives you. People are sadly prone to love their sin all the way to death and fire of hell. God loves you and wants you to be saved. He made the way for you to be saved by dying in your place after He came down from heaven to pay for your sins with his own blood. You don't have to pay in fire of hell unless you finalize your death insisting God's payment for your sins was not for you. God will let you have your own way if you insist, and you will be rejected from His heaven forever if you insist. I hope you will reconsider. God wants you to reconsider and receive Jesus as your Saviour.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
@Lifemeansgodisgod: Although I do have beef with the concept of Hell and Sin. I hardly KNOW what is real or not. You could very well be right. I just truly hope not. My empathy does not allow for the reality of hell. I do not believe anyone deserves eternal torture no matter how rebellious or sinful! I apologize for calling you westborough! I have been using that as a default for Christians who believe in hell. My attitude was embarrassing and I should not let my own struggles cause such rude behavior. So I was hoping to let the past not reflect on who I am or want to be. I am searching just like you! I just have not found it yet and have been frustrated and discouraged. To be fair.. When I said none of us has a clue. That was the most honest I could possibly be!
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 3 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Finalfan, You did well in this debate, though previously you said nobody has a clue. How did you suddenly become so knowledgeable when you had no clue a few days ago? Yes, I am very confident of the fact that you deserve to burn in hell the same as me. You know they crucified Jesus because of His preaching, right? He pointed out the hypocracy and sins of the religious leaders, He called them names fitted to their attitudes and sins, and He never backed down except to wait for the right time for Him to give Himself up for death to pay for your sins (and mine}. We both deserved to burn in hell before He paid for our sins, and we all the more deserve it if we reject His payment for our sin. Try to be reasonable and not insulting. When Jesus called the religious leaders names, He was being reasonable. You calling me "Westboro" is hysterical, the same as when you commented on my debate insisting none of us have a clue, cussing like a devil, (slang, cussing, same thing) and insulting me hysterically. Yes, hysterically.....the term is suited and appropriate for the way you are acting toward me.. Come to my debate "You deserve to burn in hell the same as me" and feel free to comment or vote, but please try to be reasonable and not hysterically insulting.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
Its ok. Clearly I was not your target opponent. I have been dealing with that a lot in debates. Where people accept them with very little knowledge on the subject! I do want to thank you for at least giving me the opportunity to address this heavy topic. Hopefully you found someone to better facilitate your debate!
Posted by Nicoszon_the_Great 3 years ago
Nicoszon_the_Great
By the way, thank you Finalfan for debating, I apologise that I never responded.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
@lifemeansgod: Whoa there Westborough!
Posted by Nicoszon_the_Great 3 years ago
Nicoszon_the_Great
"Judge not, lest ye be judged" comes to mind as you tell me that I'm going to hell, my fellow christian.
Posted by Finalfan 3 years ago
Finalfan
You would demand "proper" evidence for evolution while never actually using the same logic with your own beliefs! That is why you can believe something while understanding that you DO NOT KNOW! Only a fool would claim that he does!
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Actionsspeak 3 years ago
Actionsspeak
Nicoszon_the_GreatFinalfanTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited first, but the youtube video will count as a source.