The Instigator
BlackHomophobicAtheists
Pro (for)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
Talkingisfun
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Homophobes' views on gays are CORRECT. Gay supporters are WRONG and misguided

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
BlackHomophobicAtheists
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/28/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 958 times Debate No: 81688
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (23)
Votes (2)

 

BlackHomophobicAtheists

Pro

Polls in the 1970s and 1980s, "show the majority in U.S believed gays were made gay, not born gay. "Most people in the 1970's and 1980's did not accept homosexuality

Today, The Gallup polls show most Americans who support gays believe gays were born gay, "Not made gay.

gays and Lesbians Born, Not Made"
Gallup poll

http://www.gallup.com...

Scientists in the most homophobic country believe gays were made, Not born

Google

Ugandan 'Scientists' Claim Gays Are 'Made, Not Born'"

The Homophobic Atheist Rapper was shunned by the atheist community Because he believes befriending gays could lead to unwanted come ons

Google this

Atheist."Rapper."Homophobe." Should the "atheist movement" withhold support?

http://www.advocate.com...;

The question is, who's right? "Homophobes or gay supporters?

The largest and most reliable study on twins shows homosexuality is caused by mostly unique reactions to enironmental factors including but not limited to experimentation, peer pressure, gay pornography, bad experiences with the opposite sex, sexual abuse, childhood abuse, childhood gender nonconformity, biological randomness,ect. "In other words, gays are MADE gay, not born gay.

Neither Genes nor Choice:
Same-Sex Attraction Is Mostly a Unique Reaction to Environmental Factors
[Journal of Human Sexuality 3:81-114 (2011)]
by Neil E. Whitehead8

It looks like the majority from the 1970s and 1980s were CORRECT

The majority in U.S in today's society are WRONG

Homophobes are CORRECT

Gary supporters are WRONG

The homophobic atheist rapper is CORRECT too. "

The pro gay atheists who opposed and shunned the homophobic atheist rapper were WRONG

According to gay teen expert Ellen Friedrich, Gays commonly develop crushes on their straight friends

Google
'5 types of straight crushes'

Homophobia rooted in unwanted sexual advances (Angela pilot 2011)
Talkingisfun

Con

Even though the topic is not very clearly stated, it can be boiled down to one statement: Homosexuality is a choice, in which my opponent is pro and I am con. In this argument I will first address the arguments made by con, after which I will give my own arguments. However, I will acknowledge that it is a very complex topic. There are undeniably environmental factors that have an impact too. However, genetics are also very relevant, and people most certainly don't choose to be gay.

Pro starts of with some polls of what Americans think. Those can be entirely ignored, because opinions (which the polls measure) are completely irrelevant where facts are concerned. Even if a poll showed that 100?% of people thought the earth was flat, it would still be round. Similarly, even if 100% of people thought that being gay is a choice, that would simply mean that all people are wrong.
After this pro mentions a report by Ugandan 'scientists', who made a report for the government. The government is notoriously anti-gay which causes an enormous bias, and the paper is not peer reviewed. We can therefore ignore this too.
A random rapper is an even worse source, so can be ignored too.

The only valid argument that Pro made was the referencing of the study by Neal E. Whitehead. However, this is by no means definitive prove. It's just one paper. I could easily give you opposing papers that gives an opposing argument: Look for instance at the paper by Sanders, A R et al, called "Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation" (published in Psychological medicine, May 2015, Vol.45(7), pp.1379-88 [Peer Reviewed Journal]), which states that "Our study results provide further evidence for early (prenatal) biological influences on variation in male sexual orientation.". (Full disclosure, it also mentions that environmental factors have an influence).

Another clear indication that homosexuality is natural and something you're born with is the behaviour of rams: Up to 1 in every 10 rams is homosexual. I think that it is extremely unlikely that the rams decided to become gay, and a natural explanation makes most sense. There are also some other indications that this is the case, such as the fact that there were observable differences in the homosexual ram's brains: https://www.newscientist.com...

Finally, a logical argument: Being gay is not easy. There are gay people even in countries where it's punishable by death. There is no logical reason for anybody to become gay voluntarily. This leaves two options open: Somebody forced them to be gay (highly unlikely) or they were born gay (possibly in combination with some environmental factors).

With that I have countered all of Pro's arguments and given my own. I look forward to Pro's response.
Debate Round No. 1
BlackHomophobicAtheists

Pro

"

"Even though the topic is not very clearly stated, it can be boiled down to one statement: Homosexuality is a choice"

This is a straw man fallacy.

That was a nice attempt to make it easier for yourself but this homophobe is way too smart to let that slide. Being made gay doesn't mean they chose to be gay. Even the study I cited clearly says it's "neither a choice or inborn". The homophobes in the 1970s and 1980s also believed gays were made gay, not born gay.

"However, genetics are also very relevant"

This is FALSE

The largest, most reliabe, unbiased study on twins shows the causes of homosexuality is MOSTLY unique reactions to environmental factors, not genetics. Also, the evidence for genetic causes of homosexuality is weak at best.

"Those can be entirely ignored, because opinions (which the polls measure) are completely irrelevant where facts are concerned"

Con doesn't seem to understand why opinion polls of homophobes and gay supporters matter in this debate. The whole purpose of this debate is to show that the opinions of homophobes turned out to be correct because the results from the largest, most reliable study on twins show gays are mostly made gay, not born gay in which is exactly what homophobes believe. My point is to prove that homophobes believe gays are made gay, not born gay. The gay supporters believe gays were born gay, not made gay.

"After this pro mentions a report by Ugandan 'scientists', who made a report for the government. The government is notoriously anti-gay which causes an enormous bias, and the paper is not peer reviewed"

Again, con doesn't seem to understand. The purpose of me mentioning Ugandan scientists is to show that homophobic scientists in the most homophobic country turned out to be correct about gays being made gay, not born gay. Again, the largest, most reliable, unbiased study on twins shows the causes of homosexuality is mostly unique reactions to environmental factors in which means they were made gay, not born gay.

The same thing goes for the homophobic rapper. The homophobic rapper turned out to be correct about refusing to befriend gays eliminates unwanted come ons by gays.

According to gay teen expert Ellen Friedrich, gays COMMONLY develop crushes on their straight friends

My point is, homophobes' views on gays turned out to be correct and gay supporters' views on gays turned out to be wrong regarding the causes of homosexuality.

Con is completely disregarding the fact that the study I cited is the MOST RELIABLE THUS FAR. Therefore, the studies that he mentions are irrelevant. It's common sense to rely on the most reliable study

1. LARGER studies give a better representation of the subjects. The study I cited is THE largest
2. Studying twins to determine the causes of homosexuality is by far the best method and gives the most accurate results
3. The study I cited also consist of the most diverse subjects in which also is a far better representation of the subjects

Con seems to be forgetting about my premises.

Studies prove the opinions of homophobes turned out to be correct and the opinions of gay supporters turned out to be incorrect.
Talkingisfun

Con

Okay, let's address every point here. First of, I was accused of making a strawman fallacy. I admit that I didn't fully understand your argument, and I apologize.

I will however continue to ignore the polls, homophobic rapper, Ugandese scientists who were working for a homophobic government and the 'gay teen expert'. Opinions don't change the facts, and neither does a random rapper. The Ugandese scientists obviously had a huge bias and the point that the the 'gay teen expert' made is just completely pointless: someone having a crush on you won't make you gay.

However, after this you continue to state that the study you used is the 'largest, most reliable, unbiased study'. It may be the largest, but I would dispute the 'most reliable' and 'unbiased' claims. First of all, Dr. Whitehead is widely known as a Christian scientist [1], and the position of Christianity on homosexuality is well known [2].

Furthermore, there are more recent studies that do show that a certain stretch on the x-chromosome is related to homosexuality [3] (See the study I referenced earlier). Of course this study alone is not enough evidence either, but it does show that the study that pro used is far from definitive or certainly true.

What I will admit, and never denied, is that environmental factors play a role too. At least a significant part of that may be explained by epigenetics (certain genes being turned on and off by environmental factors) [4] [5]. However, genetics can't be ignored, and stating that 'Gay supporters are WRONG and misguided' is definitely not true. Even if it is not entirely genetics, the 'gay supporters' who blame it on genetics almost certainly have a solid case, backed up by science.

Pro claimed 'Homophobes are CORRECT' and 'Gary supporters are WRONG' (I assume he meant gay), and this is evidently not true. The only evidence Pro presented that was not completely worthless was one paper of a biased scientist which even acknowledges that genetics plays a role. Furthermore, Pro ignores the evidence that there are stretches of DNA on the X chromosome that play a part, as well as the fact that homosexuality can be found in many types of animals.

In his next argument, I hope that Pro addresses the biases in the study, responds to the studies that I have presented (including the ones about epigenetics), responds to the argument about sheep and provides some more solid examples that being gay is completely decided by environmental factors, and not by genetics. I will remind pro that the burden of proof lies on him, and I look forward to his new argument.

[1] http://www.transchristians.org...
[2] http://www.christianbiblereference.org...
[3] Sanders, A R et al "Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation" (published in Psychological medicine, May 2015, Vol.45(7), pp.1379-88 [Peer Reviewed Journal]
[4]: The biological basis of human sexual orientation: is there a role for epigenetics?, Ngun, Tuck C ; Vilain, Eric, Advances in genetics, 2014, Vol.86, pp.167-84 [Peer Reviewed Journal]
[5]: http://www.nimbios.org...
Debate Round No. 2
BlackHomophobicAtheists

Pro

Con fails to understand that the purpose of me mentioning random homophobes and polls of homophobes opinions is to highlight their opinions to show that their opinions turned out to be correct according to the most reliable study on homosexuality thus far.

. "Whitehead is widely known as a Christian scientist [1], and the position of Christianity on homosexuality is well known [2]."

Thus is a ad hominid fallacy. Fallacies don't win arguments

Attacking the person instead of the claim is flawed logic. Using con's logic, every gay person who argues in favor of gay marriage is wrong because they are gay. Secondly, it's possible that con is lying about whitehead. Where are the sources?

"Furthermore, there are more recent studies that do show that a certain stretch on the x-chromosome is related to homosexuality"

the best way to determine if a trait is genetic is to research twins. the larger the study is, the more accurate it is likely to be. therefore, the study that I posted is the most reliable because it is a study on twins and is the largest

the study con is referring to didn't involve twins and even if they did, its nowhere near as large as the study that I cited. Researching twins is by far the best way to learn if a behavior is genetic or not. Therefore, the study that I cited is by far the most reliable study thus far

"The only evidence Pro presented that was not completely worthless was one paper of a biased scientist"

Again, con is spewing an ad hominem attack. Con is attacking the person instead of the claim. If con wants to prove that their claims are flawed, prove that the claims are flawed instead of attacking the person who made the claim. I'm not claiming every gay person is biased because they're gay.

Again, the most reliable study proves that the homophobes' claims are in fact CORRECT. Con would like everyone to deem any claim by any homophobe "invalid" and "bias" not by examining the claim. but by simply not liking the person who stated the claim.

Using con's logic, it's literally impossible for a homophobe to state a valid claim.

"In his next argument, I hope that Pro addresses the biases in the study"

Con hasn't even proved the studies are biased. All con knows is the scientists don't embrace behaviors that commonly triggers deadly std epidemics.

In conclusion, I proved that homophobes are right about the fact that the majority if not all gays are made gay, not born gay. I also proved that gay supporters are wrong for believing that all gays were born gay. Con attempted to downplay the largest, most reliable study on twins by attacking everything but the study itself.
Talkingisfun

Con

Talkingisfun forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Talkingisfun 1 year ago
Talkingisfun
Oh dang. I accidentally forfeited the last rounds. My sincere apologies. This was not because I was convinced, but merely because I forgot.
Posted by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
Oh, you again.
Posted by BlackHomophobicAtheists 1 year ago
BlackHomophobicAtheists
Homophobes were even right in the 1970s. Homophobes opposed gay bath houses. The police began to shut down gay bath houses in which led to the Stonewall Riots. Gays were able to keep the gay bath houses open in the name of rights.

Gay bathhouses turned out to be HIV distribution centers in which profoundly contributed to the worst STD epidemic in human history.

During the early days of HIV before a mass number of gays were infected, homophobes Warned gays to stop having sex. Gays refused to stop having gay sex and as a result, the HIV epidemic switched into full blown and ended killing thousands of gays and innocent victims who are receiving blood donations

Homophobes are right about everything. Gays are better off listening and obeying homophobes. Now HIV is mostly infecting gays in committed serious relationships in which includes gay marriages.

I think I will start a new debate called,' Gays are better off obeying homophobes' lol
Posted by BlackHomophobicAtheists 1 year ago
BlackHomophobicAtheists
Homophobes were even right in the 1970s. Homophobes opposed gay bath houses. The police began to shut down gay bath houses in which led to the Stonewall Riots. Gays were able to keep the gay bath houses open in the name of rights.

Gay bathhouses turned out to be HIV distribution centers in which profoundly contributed to the worst STD epidemic in human history.

During the early days of HIV before a mass number of gays were infected, homophobes Warned gays to stop having sex. Gays refused to stop having gay sex and as a result, the HIV epidemic switched into full blown and ended killing thousands of gays and innocent victims who are receiving blood donations

Homophobes are right about everything. Gays are better off listening and obeying homophobes. Now HIV is mostly infecting gays in committed serious relationships in which includes gay marriages.

I think I will start a new debate called,' Gays are better off obeying homophobes' lol
Posted by BlackHomophobicAtheists 1 year ago
BlackHomophobicAtheists
My argument is still valid because I clearly cinveyed, environmental factors are the most prevalent because without environmental factors, there is no trigger man. Therefore, gays are made gay by the environmental factors. The trigger man is responsible for the crime. In this case, environmental factors are the trigger man.

How could homophobes possibly be on the wrong side of history when we're the ones who were right? Again, homophobes always believe gays were made gay by their environment...

As science prevails, it becomes more and more clear that homophobes are right about damn near everything concerning gays.

A study by CDC shows the majority of HIV infections occur within gay, serious committed relationships. That obviously includes gay marriages. Homophobes warned gay supporters that gays are too promiscuous to be allowed to get married. Gay marriage is literally increasing a deadly STD among gays.

I think gays and date supporters will be viewed by future generations as a bunch of lost, delusional people who were all wrong about gays .
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
Ok, but this is what predisposed means...so you must agree that there is a genetic component, even if you think it needs to be triggered, which means that you are homophobic of a genetic trait...flawed.
Posted by BlackHomophobicAtheists 1 year ago
BlackHomophobicAtheists
It's funny that you gays are disregarding the largest, most reliable study of all time. On top of that, it's the largest study on twins in which makes the results as accurate as they can possibly be.

What were the results?

Some of the causes of homosexuality are as follows

Experimentation, sexual abuse, child abuse, bad experience with the opposite sex, childhood gender nonconformity, biological randomness, and peer pressure,

The truth is, most gays were likely damaged into becoming gay. It's a result of mostly negativity.

Gays are broken people.... homophobes are right
Posted by BlackHomophobicAtheists 1 year ago
BlackHomophobicAtheists
Magicaintreal,

What you fail to understand is, even with the gene present, environmental factors usually have to trigger the behavior. The gene simply increases the chances of a particular reaction triggered by environmental factors. Therefore, environmental factors are still the most prevalent. Without the environmental factors, there's nothing to trigger the behavior.

The same goes for schizophrenic people. A person could have a schizophrenic gene but certain environmental factors triggers the schizophrenia
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
MagicAintReal
How is thi sspeculation?
"Combining inequalities (3.8) and solving for h demonstrate that h<(1+G)/(2+G) is required to support polymorphism, which means that allele a has to be sufficiently recessive. Decreasing h broadens the conditions for the maintenance of variation (see figure 3a)."

Where did they speculate???

Be honest, did you read this peer reviewed study not based on speculation?
It literally refutes you EXACTLY and you have not answered how this is speculation. Answer.
Posted by Talkingisfun 1 year ago
Talkingisfun
The largest study of brothers (including twins) actually found a significant link. (see my argument). I haven't mentioned it there, but over 400 pairs of brothers (including twins) were researched there.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Sciguy 1 year ago
Sciguy
BlackHomophobicAtheistsTalkingisfunTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited the round and that means the racist, no, Atheists wins. I tip my hat to you BlackHomophobicAtheists.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
BlackHomophobicAtheistsTalkingisfunTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con ff a round, so conduct to Pro.