The Instigator
brian_eggleston
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Con (against)
Winning
15 Points

Homos that rape underage girls should not face prosecution

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/25/2011 Category: Science
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,810 times Debate No: 18040
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (8)
Votes (5)

 

brian_eggleston

Pro

For those who don't know, Homo floresiensis are diminutive hominoids who are known to have lived on the Indonesian island of Flores as recently as 13,000 years ago, when it is believed a volcano wiped them out. [1]

However, Flores is very remote and largely unexplored so it quite possible that some Homos survived the eruption and their decedents are living on the island, undiscovered, to this day.

It is my intention to capture some of these Homos and breed them in captivity for sale as pets.

However, it occurred to me that this plan might present me with some legal difficulty in the future if I sold a Homo to a family that had an adolescent daughter as a member.

That's because adult Homo floresiensis females only reach 3' 3" in height and, to a male Homo, a human girl who has just reached puberty might bear more than a passing resemblance to a sexually mature female Homo [2,3] and it might well attempt to have sexual intercourse with the girl.

Now, if this horny Homo was brought before the courts and successfully prosecuted for rape, the family could then sue me for supplying them with a p´┐Żdophile pet.

So my argument is that Homos who rape underage girls should not stand trial because they cannot be held liable for their actions, nor are they be capable of defending themselves, in the same way has modern humans are, and therefore, any trial would be unfair.

Thank you.

[1] http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
[2] http://www.sciencemag.org...
[3] http://www.sciencephoto.com...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Con

I thank my opponent for this very interesting debate on a controversial scenario.

After reading through my opponent's arguments a few times, I found what I thought was the resolution which was:

Resolution: Homos [Floresienses] who rape underage girls should not stand trial because they cannot be held liable for their actions, nor are they be capable of defending themselves, in the same way as modern humans are, and therefore, any trial would be unfair.

My opponent gives three reasons to support the resolution. Here are my rebuttals:

1) Cannot be held liable for their actions
My opponent does not give any reason why Homo Floros cannot be held liable for their actions. Raping a member of any species is wrong and the offender must be held liable by the species which the offender raped. If any species rapes a human, then they must face the human justice system.

In the late 1300s, a bull was convicted for killing a five year old boy [1]. A French donkey was accused of savagely attacking a farmer, but was acquited when the farmer testified that the donkey was usually gentle [1]. When a pig killed an infant child by eating its arm and face, it was locked up with human defendents, convicted, and had its own arm and face cut off as a punishment [1]. I assume that it was later turned into a sausage and eaten. If pigs, bulls, and donkeys are held responsible for their actions by humans, so too should the Homo Floro.

All animals have their own justice system. Bears don't usually attack humans but when a bear cub is taken, mama bear will bite [4]. Humans must protect themselves the same way. Homo Floros must be treated with respect, but when a Homo Floro rapes a human, humans must put that rapist in jail.

2) Not capable of defending themselves
This is not accurate as Homo Floros are perfectly capable of defending themselves. They were advanced people who used fire for cooking [5]. They could certainly use fire in war. They also manufacturing sophisticated stone tools and hunted pygmy elephants [5]. Either way, their ability to defend themselves must not outweigh the fact that they committed an act of violence upon a Homo Sapiens. Homo Sapiens therefore must adequately dispense justice.

3) They might have intercourse with a young girl thinking that she was a sexually mature female Homo Floresiences
This is extremely unlikely. Source [2] shows a female Homo Floro while source [3] shows a human girl. Upon opening both sources side by side, it can be seen that the two females look nothing like each other. The only similarity is their size.

More specifically, the human girl is clothed and far less hairy than the female Homo Floro. The two also have hair on different parts of their body. While the Homo Floro has hair on her face and upper arms, the human girl only has hair on top of her head. These are few of the many differences. The only similarity is the size. I ask my opponent: Do male monkeys mistake human girls for monkeys and attempt to have sexual intercourse with them despite being the same size?

To answer Con's contention, I would like to ask the voters to open sources [2] and [3] and see if it is more likely than not that the voter would mistake one for the other.

Sources

[1] http://socyberty.com...
[2] http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com...
[3] http://www.ayushveda.com...
[4] http://tvtropes.org...
[5] http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
Debate Round No. 1
brian_eggleston

Pro

I would like to thank F-16_Fighting_Falcon for accepting this challenge and, in so doing, giving me the pleasure of debating with him once again.

My opponent disseminated my argument and posted three rebuttals which I would like to respond to in turn as follows:

Liability for Homos' Actions
=================

There ought to be accountability for Homos' actions, I agree, but the Homos themselves should not be held legally liable. For example, if an unscrupulous owner trained his pet Homo to go out and burgle and shoplift and pick-pocket and the police spotted the Homo with a swag bag full of stolen loot over its shoulder and followed it back to its owner's home, surely it would be the owner they would arrest and not the Homo?

The Homos' Inability to Defend Themselves
===========================

During the Napoleonic Wars between Britain and France (1803-1814) a French ship was wrecked off the coast of Hertlepool in North East England. The sole survivor was the ship's pet monkey, which was washed ashore, bedraggled but alive.

For the purpose of amusement, the monkey had been dressed in a miniature military uniform and, not being sure what a Frenchman looked like, the locals of the town assumed the monkey was one of the crew, accused it of being a French spy and put the unfortunate creature on trial.

Now, just like a Homo floresiensis, that simian sailor was unable to adequately defend himself and the poor, innocent little monkey was wrongly found guilty and duly hanged.

http://www.hartlepoolunited.co.uk...

Now, imagine if a young teenage girl falsely accused her pet Homo of rape and the hominoid was brought to trial: it would be her word against the Homo's word and the Homo's word would be "ugggh" – not a very convincing defence, I'm sure you'll agree.

It would be wrong to allow this sort of miscarriage of justice to tarnish our admirable legal systems.

A Case of Mistaken Identity?
==================

The first picture I posted was of an adult human woman with an adult Homo floresiensis female.

The second picture I posted was also of an adult human woman with an adult Homo floresiensis female. Here it is reproduced once more, but this time with its title: http://www.sciencephoto.com...

You see! Even my opponent couldn't tell the difference between an adult Homo female and an adolescent human female, so what chance would a male Homo have?

For all these reasons I duly reaffirm that Homos that rape underage girls should not face prosecution.

Thank you.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Con


It is indeed a pleasure to debate Brian on one of fun topics. Hope this debate was as enjoyable to him and the voters as it was to me. Here are my responses:


1) Who is liable?
My opponent does not want to be held liable for the actions of his pet Homo Floro which I will name "Kanye". Since he had two rounds to name his Homo Floro and hasn't named it yet, it falls on me to name it.


Now, my opponent does not want to be held liable for Kanye's actions as evidenced by his statement:

"Now, if this horny Homo was brought before the courts and successfully prosecuted for rape, the family could then sue me for supplying them with a pædophile pet."

My opponent also does not want Kanye to be held responsible for his own actions as my opponent feels that Kanye can't defend himself and cannot be held liable for his own actions.

My opponent also agrees that there ought to responsibility for a Homo Floro's actions with this statement:

"There ought to be accountability for Homos' actions, I agree, but the Homos themselves should not be held legally liable."

My question then is: Who will be held liable for Kanye's actions?
Not my oppoent, not Kanye and certainly not the victims. If Kanye is not prosecuted, we will have rampant rape of human girls and a new hybrid species will emerge. Note that rape will occur not due to mistaken identity but due to Homo Floros like Kanye intentionally raping human girls. To stop this, all Homo Floros must be prosecuted before a human judge.

2) Homo Floros can defend themselves very well
My opponent tells an interesting story about a French monkey which was accused of being a French spy and hanged. This analogy is inadequate for two reasons:

(a) Homo Floros are far more intelligent than monkeys.
My opponent's source says that Homo Floros are extremely intelligent. "Given that Homo floresiensis is the smallest human species ever discovered, they out-punch every known human intellectually, pound for pound"[3]. How dare my opponent compare it to a monkey??

(b) The English would most certainly have hanged a human French spy.
The hanging took place not because the spy was a monkey, but because he was French. So this is not an analogous situation to Kanye being prosecuted. The monkey in my opponent's example was treated like a human, so too will Kanye.


3) Mistaken Identity

"You see! Even my opponent couldn't tell the difference between an adult Homo female and an adolescent human female, so what chance would a male Homo have?"

I have no idea where in the world my opponent gets that from, since I never commented on his pictures. However, open these two pictures, [1] http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com...;[2] http://www.ayushveda.com... if you can tell that [1] was a Homo Floro and [2] was a human girl, I will have won this point.


Even if an exceptionally stupid Homo Floro mistakes a human girl for one of its own, it must still be prosecuted as it committed a crime against a human being and violated human laws. It doesn't matter whether or not it knew that it was breaking the law.

Conclusion
When a Homo Floro rapes an underage girl, he knows that it is a human girl. He must be held accountable for his actions in a human court. Even if he doesn't know that it is a human girl, so what? Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it. Humans must still prosecute him.

[3] http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
Debate Round No. 2
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by JustCallMeTarzan 6 years ago
JustCallMeTarzan
This is *almost* as bad as my recreational incest one.
Posted by randolph7 6 years ago
randolph7
@brian Yeah, I caught that. I like the light hearted debates. The 5 round ones between two really good debaters with all those $12 words are exhausting to follow. :)
Posted by brian_eggleston 6 years ago
brian_eggleston
It was intentional - I wanted an eye-catching title!

The only problem is that I had to continue to refer to Homo floriensis as "Homos" right through the debate, and it's not a correct abbreviation otherwise modern humans, Homo sapiens, should equally be referred to as "Homos"!
Posted by randolph7 6 years ago
randolph7
This debate is not what I thought it was when I read the resolution :) I suspect that was intentional, no?
Posted by randolph7 6 years ago
randolph7
Am I not supposed to post ideas out there? Sorry, if I breached etiquette.. didn't know.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 6 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
@Randolph: Hey, I was going to say that! Never mind, found another way to counter.
Posted by randolph7 6 years ago
randolph7
The homos might not have the same language but even your source, Brian, said that they were pound for pound the most intelligent of the homo genus. Still defendants in trials are represented by counsel even if it wasn't intelligent enough to offer a defence.
Posted by brian_eggleston 6 years ago
brian_eggleston
Age restriction: 18+
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by airmax1227 6 years ago
airmax1227
brian_egglestonF-16_Fighting_FalconTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Very creative debate. Con effectively rebuts Pro's arguments by ultimately pointing to 'the pet's' sufficient intelligence to be held accountable.
Vote Placed by Cerebral_Narcissist 6 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
brian_egglestonF-16_Fighting_FalconTied
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Reasons for voting decision: As usual a very amusing debate, Con has the edge with the arguments however.
Vote Placed by kohai 6 years ago
kohai
brian_egglestonF-16_Fighting_FalconTied
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Reasons for voting decision: CON shown that other animals have been prosecuted and have justice systems. Also, CON shown that they were intelligent and could Defend themselves.
Vote Placed by Double_R 6 years ago
Double_R
brian_egglestonF-16_Fighting_FalconTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con countered Pros case effectively. The issue of who should be presecuted is one that must be addressed, and Con showed that homos are capable of defending themselves. Very entertaining debate.
Vote Placed by quarterexchange 6 years ago
quarterexchange
brian_egglestonF-16_Fighting_FalconTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro showed that "homos" are intelligent creatures that could not possbily mistake a human girl for a "homo" girl no more than a human can mistake another human between a monkey. It couldn't happen by mistake meaning the homo floresiensis should bear full responsiblity for it's actions