The Instigator
LLAMA
Con (against)
Winning
37 Points
The Contender
MaStErDeBaTeR44
Pro (for)
Losing
24 Points

Homosexuality is a Choice.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2010 Category: Science
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 10,965 times Debate No: 11787
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (28)
Votes (10)

 

LLAMA

Con

It has come to my attention that there are people in this world who view the state of being homosexual or bisexual a choice that people can make. For example, the very well known politicians, Sarah Palin and Bill Richardson both believes this.(1 and 3)

This belief however, is a very false misconception but unfortunately is a very widely accepted theory to the origination of homosexuality and so, is a very large problem in society. I am a person with first hand experience and for a fact KNOW that homosexuality is definitely NOT a choice. Every single other member of the LGBT community knows that in their heart also.

A staggering 59% of the population believe that it is a choice for a man to be attracted to another man or a woman to another woman.(2) Sadly, this ignorance is quite widespread and is quite sickeningly untrue. I must commend the population though for the decrease in this misunderstanding as the people who thought homosexuality was a choice in 1977 took up 87% of the population.(2)

I await my opponent for their response and am intrigued to see what their opinion would be on this topic.

1.
2. http://www.westernherald.com... (statistics in 7th paragraph)

3.
MaStErDeBaTeR44

Pro

Hello. I am Mr.DeBatEr (I don't mean to be offensive by the username at all, I am a serious individual). I chose to accept this debate, because it is one of great controversy. This is my first debate in debate.org, and I'll see how this goes. :)

I'll start by stating, that my opponent has to prove that it is NOT a choice 100% of the time, by him being CON. All the PRO side has to do, is state that sometimes it is not a choice, and that it overrules the times where it is not a choice

CONTENTION 1) Of course, it is scientifically proven that some people are born with the homosexual "germ", so to speak. This doesn't mean they turn gay. Some people go all their lives without saying that they're homosexual. Hiding it, so that they don't feel embarrassed. Others, think it's cool to be different, and so, they choose their own path, even though it's not the one it's meant to be.

http://www.religioustolerance.org...
http://www.suite101.com...;'

CONTENTION 2) There is living evidence of people who have chosen to live part of their lives in a straight manner. This is the strongest evidence PRO can come up with; living proof. Ricky Martin, recently said he's gay, but in fact, he dated a woman in the past, so even though he is gay, he chose to be straight. This is the proof that should get the PRO side to win the debate, since you can't argue this, essentially
http://news.softpedia.com...;
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Now to attack my opponent.

He does not bring up a case, yet all he brings up is the population of the people that believe being homosexual is a choice. This is not a case, and something that I can not attack.

1) ". I am a person with first hand experience and for a fact KNOW that homosexuality is definitely NOT a choice"
You may be a person with an experience, but there are others that take the choice to be homosexual, as I have stated in my case. You are one, out of millions that are with this condition.

2) " KNOW that homosexuality is definitely NOT a choice"
It wasn't a choice for you, but who are we to judge by saying that it's not a choice for everyone? Everyone's different, you can't judge for them

With this, I believe, that even though science proves that you are born gay, some people take a different path, and go against what nature really has in them, and take a choice to go the opposite way.

~Mr.DeBaTeR44
Debate Round No. 1
LLAMA

Con

Thank you to my opponent for accepting this debate challenge and for writing such an interesting argument.

I would like to state that as my opponent said, it is my goal to prove that the state of being homosexual is not a choice and purely a natural occurrence. The purpose of this argument was to have someone debate the fact that people choose to be attracted to people of the same gender.

"Contention 1"
Homosexuality is not a "germ" as my opponent stated and people can not "turn gay". It is true what my opponent says about people saying that they're gay for attention, but that does not mean that they actually are, and were not able to choose to have an attraction to people of the same gender.

Homosexuality is not a germ at all, in fact is it genetic. (1) There are many factors which play into sexuality such as having older brothers, having a gay twin and brain activity to name a few. (1) However, there is no exact reason for why people are gay, but, many organisations such as The American Medical Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, The American Academy of Paediatrics, and The National Association of Social Workers all state that homosexuality should not be treated as a mental disorder that they oppose attempts at conversion therapy and that sexual orientation is not a choice and can not be changed. (Video 1 [Source 6] from 2:30 to 3:02)

"Contention 2"
While my opponent has his example of Ricky Martin, my point in this debate is that the state of being homosexual, meaning the physical attraction and not the lifestyle, or love life, is what I'm arguing for. My argument is that people can not choose to what gender they are attracted to.

The article that my opponent provides is not fact based, rather, an outing done by Ricky Martin's skin beautician. Therefore, it might not be entirely true. The article also states that, "...he was never publicly seen in the company of any potential girlfriend..." and does not say that he ever DATED a woman. There is no proof in this article that he chose to charade his sexuality in a falsified relationship or that he's even gay at all.

Now, my article (2) is an actual statement from Ricky Martin confirming his sexuality. It also states that the birth of his children convinced him to come out. The children, he had through a surrogate mother. (3) The next article I have (4) talks about (and proves the existence of) his girlfriend, Rebecca De Alba. The relationship was not a charade for the press as the article states and merely Ricky discovering his sexuality as many men do since most have a hard time accepting it. There are also a lot of risks to the process which force people further into the closet and keep people from admitting it, which may be why Martin didn't come out. (5) I for one had two relationships with girls before I came out, both very long lasting, but there was no physical attraction to them and they ended up being friendships rather than dates. It does not mean that the person chose or chose not to be gay.

Attacks:
My first round argument was to state that this belief in homosexuality being a choice is a problem, not to state a case.

1: "...there are others that take the choice to be homosexual..."
People can not make a choice to be homosexual or not. It is a biological occurrence and is not a choice that people can make. (See "Contention 1" and "Video 2:30 to 3:02")

2: "Who are we to judge by saying that it is not a choice for everyone? Everyone is different, you can't judge for them."
Actually, if you ask a homosexual, they will state that they did not have a choice to be gay or not. Besides, who would want to choose a life where they encounter hatred, violence, bigotry, and judgement all directed at them on a daily basis? The only choice that homosexuals have is to be out or not and I am not arguing that. I am arguing that homosexuals have no choice in their attraction to members of the same sex. If the viewers of this debate would like some examples, please feel free to view Video 2 (Source 7), or Video 3 (Source 8), or Video 4 (Source 9). All of these videos are from actual gay people (or bisexual) speaking out against the ignorance of people assuming "gay is a choice". I would say the same thing these people say and I have always been gay. It was never a choice whatsoever.

I await my opponents response.

1. http://lakeweedatarrowhead.net...
2. http://www.tmz.com...
3. http://www.tmz.com...
4. http://justthedish.blogspot.com...
5. http://gayteens.about.com...
6.
7.
8.
9.
MaStErDeBaTeR44

Pro

Thank you to my opponent for being so quick in responding :) good luck CON

1st off= Defending my case

1) ". It is true what my opponent says about people saying that they're gay for attention, but that does not mean that they actually are, and were not able to choose to have an attraction to people of the same gender."

My opponent has agreed here that people turn gay for attention, this therefore means that he also believes that people do choose to be homosexual, going against what he's supposed to be debating.

2) "Homosexuality is not a germ at all, in fact is it genetic"

I am quite aware of this, but I could not think of the word, that I can now, so I stated "So to speak" after the words. I am well aware that it is genetic, and not a germ.

3) "While my opponent has his example of Ricky Martin, my point in this debate is that the state of being homosexual, meaning the physical attraction and not the lifestyle, or love life, is what I'm arguing for"

That is exactly why I brought it up. Ricky Martin is a living example of having the choice to be straight. He chose to be straight for so long, and therefore this living proof should get PRO the win.

4) "People can not make a choice to be homosexual or not. It is a biological occurrence and is not a choice that people can make."

This is not true at all. Answer me this con. Why is it that we have so many people that choose to be homosexual, when they aren't really? We can all choose what we can be, not just because you are homo means you have to be that way. You may deny it, and go with the flow, as happens so long.

And I quote Ann Landers and a website (last one shown in my sources list)

Ann Landers said it, and millions of people believe it. The problem is, the data's not there to support it. There are three ways to test for inborn traits: twin studies, brain dissections, and gene "linkage" studies.(6) Twin studies show that something other than genetics must account for homosexuality, because nearly half of the identical twin studied didn't have the same sexual preference. If homosexuality were inherited, identical twins should either be both straight or both gay. Besides, none of the twin studies have been replicated, and other twin studies have produced completely different results.(7) Dr. Simon LeVay's famous study on the brains of dead subjects yielded questionable results regarding its accuracy. He wasn't sure of the sexual orientation of the people in the study, and Dr. LeVay even admits he doesn't know if the changes in the brain structures were the cause *of* homosexuality, or caused *by* homosexuality.(8) Finally, an early study attempting to show a link between homosexuality and the X- chromosome has yet to be replicated, and a second study actually contradicted the findings of the first.(9) Even if homosexuality were someday proven to be genetically related, *inborn* does not necessarily mean *normal*. Some children are born with cystic fibrosis, but that doesn't make it a normal condition.

This should prove that the PRO should win this debat

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ATTACKS.

My opponent did not defend his case, therefore please cross-supply my attacks to his case in the first round.

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http://www.mentalhelp.net...
http://www.suite101.com...
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
http://lesbianlife.about.com...
http://www.dosomething.org...
http://www.leaderu.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
LLAMA

Con

1-2"My opponent believes people choose to be gay"
Why my opponent would believes such a thing is confusing to me as I very clearly stated my opinion in this debate. In fact, when my opponent says "choose to be homosexual", is he referring to the gay lifestyle? Might this be the source of his confusion? We are debating the state of being homosexual, the physical attraction, and not the lifestyle.

People can choose to have sex with whoever they like, but the attraction to a certain gender, however, is determined at birth, as proven by(1). We CAN all choose with whom we sleep with, but we can NOT choose with whom we are physically attracted to. If you are born physically attracted to females, then you shall always be attracted to females; if you are born attracted to males, then you will be attracted to males. It's your genetic code. Celebrities mask their sexuality all of the time; why? Because of the social pressure they face from the media and the many forces that do not appreciate them for who they really are. Now, would anyone CHOOSE to be belittled and insulted on a near daily basis? Would anyone choose to be the victim of general hate-speech? Actually, people who identify as gay, bisexual or lesbian are FIVE times more likely to miss school due to feeling unsafe and FOUR times more likely to commit suicide. Homosexuals earn up to 14% less than their straight peers and 18% of employers would fire a homosexual, 27% of employers would refuse to hire a homosexual and 26% would refuse to promote a homosexual. (2) Would anyone CHOOSE to endure this? I don't think so. Genetics are a definite; they can never be changed, no matter how hard you try. (Video 1 2:30 to 3:02) Up until now, I have not seen any evidence from the CON supporting his claims that your natural attraction can be changed.

3"Ricky Martin chose to be straight."
As for Ricky Martin, he did not CHOOSE to BE either straight or gay. There is no proof of this. People live in fear of their sexuality because of all the hatred and violence they may face (2), the possibility of being rejected by their friends and even family and the fear of facing judgement everywhere they go. Because of this homophobia, Ricky Martin held in his sexuality. Most people even experiment too to determine if their feelings are true or not. I am a living example of this too, and I in fact did not choose to be gay, so were the people that I highlighted in the videos in my last argument, I'll re-post those for reviewing.

4"We can all choose what we can be, not just because you are homo means you have to be that way."
I would like to point out my opponents rather derogatory use of "homo" and that using the word in that way is actually quite an offensive little slur.

Now, to the manipulated data. Twin studies actually show that in identical twins, if one is gay, then the other is also gay 75% of the time.(1) My opponent stated that since they weren't both gay 100% of the time that genetics are not the cause. This is very false as even in identical twins, the genomes are not exactly the same within that twin set, there are differences which account for that other 25%.(3) Still, having that 75% relation in the twins is a much higher result than if genetics played no role. Additionally, in fraternal twins, both twins were gay 1/3 (33%) of the time, this is also a much higher statistic than if genetics played no role as fraternal twins have much different genomes than identical twins do but still, more identical genomes than two separately born children.

There is also a difference in brain activity in gay men compared to straight people.(1) The findings of this study showed that the shaping of the brains of gay men more closely resembled straight women than gay men. This is because of Fraternal Birth Order Effect.(5)

"Just because it's genetically related does not make homosexuality normal."
This statement by my opponent actually is also false, as not only does homosexuality occur in humans, but it occurs in many animals throughout the animal kingdom and is in fact a very normal behavior.(4) To conclude, we are not debating whether homosexuality is normal or not, but rather being attracted to a member of the same sex is not a choice for the person. I am going to repeat my statement that many psychological organizations state that sexuality is unchangeable and a change should not be attempted.(6)

1 http://lakeweedatarrowhead.net...
2 http://www.now.org...
3 http://www.scientificamerican.com...
4 http://news.nationalgeographic.com...
5 http://www.thedenverchannel.com...
6 http://archive.psych.org...
MaStErDeBaTeR44

Pro

MaStErDeBaTeR44 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
LLAMA

Con

As the Pro did not post a third round rebuttal, this argument will be a closing statement.

Homosexuality, being the attraction to a member of the same sex, is not a choice. There may not be definite concrete evidence to directly prove it to be genetic, but, there is definitely more than enough to indirectly prove it to not be a choice. That is the argument here.

To start, there is all of the scientific studies done which were listed previously. The twin study, which concluded with results (a 52% chance of the second of an identical twin set to be gay if one is gay, and a 22% chance for the second to be gay in fraternal twins) that would just not have been the case if genetics played no role in sexuality. (1)

Homosexuals also have different brain structures than heterosexuals. Gay men's brains more resembling that of a straight woman and lesbian women having brains resembling those of straight men. (1) How is it even humanly possible for someone to make a choice on their own sometime during their teenage years and then manage to reshape their brain structure?! It is simply not a possibility.

The difference in brain structure from homosexuals to heterosexuals is believed to be caused by both environmental and genetic factors. A combination of the two. This is because in twin studies, the identical twins were only both gay 52% of the time and that is a higher result than the 15% of two children who are not related whatsoever. The 22% in fraternal twins also points to a genetic cause as it would "run in the family", so to speak. (2)

Lastly, conversion therapy (the next best thing to "making the choice" yourself) scarcely has success in turning a gay person straight. If it were a choice to be homosexual, then wouldn't it just take a bit of convincing, persuading and maybe some homophobia statistics to convince that person otherwise about their "choice"? If it were that simple, then there definitely wouldn't even be any gay people on the planet! Why would anyone choose to have a certain quality about them that would subject that person to judgement, hate, and even in some cases, violence? In samples of patients of conversion therapy, the best success rate found in converting homosexuals to heterosexuals was 0.5%. This occurred in eight out of 202 people who looked to Schroeder & Shidlo to change their sexuality. Unfortunately, those who claimed to manage to change had already been "ex-gays". Most other "ex-gay ministries" and other groups have success rates of a shockingly productive rate of 0%. (3) Again, if homosexuality was a choice, wouldn't it be fairly easy, or at least somewhat successful, to convince the person otherwise? Shouldn't there be something more than a generously reported 0.5% success rate?!

The American Medical Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, The American Academy of Paediatrics, and The National Association of Social Workers all state that homosexuality is not something that can be treated with conversion therapy, is not a mental disease at all and therefore does not require any treatment, that sexuality is unchangeable and is not a choice. Along with all of those scientists, so many people will tell you that being gay was never a choice for them. Heterosexuals can of course say the same that it was never their choice to be straight. Tons of people know this for a fact in their hearts, and if you ask yourself the question, "When did I ever choose what gender I am attracted to?" you can find the same answer. There was never a choice. There never will be a choice. People discover their sexuality and a choice is simply not something that occurs, and people can know this even without the mounds of scientific evidence that proves the "Choice" theory blatantly incorrect.

1. http://lakeweedatarrowhead.net...
2. http://www.thetech.org...
3. http://www.religioustolerance.org...
MaStErDeBaTeR44

Pro

MaStErDeBaTeR44 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
28 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MaStErDeBaTeR44 7 years ago
MaStErDeBaTeR44
Too bad I couldn't respond in the last rounds :/
I unfortunately had to attend a tournament that lasted for 3 days, and afterwards, time was lacking due to the fact that I had a lot of tests

Nevertheless, great debate ;)
Posted by Koopin 7 years ago
Koopin
Why the forfeit? And whats up with Llama's sources?
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 7 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Also, Pro conceded the argument in the first round.
"With this, I believe, that even though science proves that you are born gay, some people take a different path, and go against what nature really has in them, and take a choice to go the opposite way."
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 7 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
Pro's R1
Contention 1: Does not address the debate topic as it concerns actions not feelings.
Contention 2: Same as above.

Pro's position is only possible by confusing feelings and attractions with actions, which is not valid.
Posted by russianmaster999 7 years ago
russianmaster999
but my main point here is to ask if either one or the other of your own views like on the topic not just what people say or research might say I would like to know what you would personally might say just to comes up to your mind
Posted by russianmaster999 7 years ago
russianmaster999
you could have homosexuality as a choice but is it the neccesarry choice of anyone some people might be forced into it and its no a choice then people doing it...i have no clue how homosexuality would be presented in a way presentable
Posted by MaStErDeBaTeR44 7 years ago
MaStErDeBaTeR44
I agree, a topic that causes quite controversy. but that is why we are here, correct? To debate and prove our side?
Posted by micktravis 7 years ago
micktravis
A couple of things come to mind. I'm not sure Masterdebater can claim victory by showing that one person chose to be a homosexual. The debate is about the population in general, and is not intended as a universal categorization.

More interestingly, I'm curious to know when Masterdebater chose to be straight. I can't remember ever doing so myself - I just found the opposite sex appealing from as early as I can remember. If I were inherently attracted to men but knew I was supposed to be attracted to women (and had listened to all the unscientific religious pronouncements out there) I could see how I might fool myself into thinking maybe I was just making the wrong choice, but honestly I can't imagine that I could wake up tomorrow and decide to be gay. Not in the same way I could decide to start jogging.

Being gay is about who you are attracted to and who you fall in love with. If I went out and slept with a man tomorrow I would be no gayer than I am today.
Posted by LLAMA 7 years ago
LLAMA
Of course we do, I was simply stating that in my argument, I was clear on the topic that was to be debated.
Posted by MaStErDeBaTeR44 7 years ago
MaStErDeBaTeR44
we all have rights to questions, right llama? :P
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