The Instigator
kms25
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Hardcore.Pwnography
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Honest and poor is better than being dishonest and rich

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Hardcore.Pwnography
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/23/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 42,957 times Debate No: 20602
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (3)

 

kms25

Pro

I am definitely pro for being honest and poor vs. being dishonest and rich. Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies. On the other hand comes the poor vs. rich factor. Money comes and goes. There will always be money in the world. In the industry, if a person is "dishonest" they aren't going to be making as much money as they would be if they were being "honest." In fact, at least every single person has lied at least once in their lives which considers them at that moment being dishonest but imagine always being dishonest. That person will never be trusted with anything, money, jobs, or any kind of responsibility and money can only bring so much happiness. If a person is honest, they can always be trusted and although they would be poor, money will come to those who deserve and earn it most.
Hardcore.Pwnography

Con

Thank you for instigating this debate.

As Con, I will argue that being dishonest and rich is better than being honest and poor.

But first, let's refute what Pro has said.

Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies.
This is a contradiction. How can a person have honesty if everybody lies? You can't have both. How can someone be honest when everyone is dishonest? This just doesn't make sense. Please pick one.

On the other hand comes the poor vs. rich factor. Money comes and goes.
This really depends on how you spend your money. If you save your money, the money will only come and never go. Please elaborate further.

In the industry, if a person is "dishonest" they aren't going to be making as much money as they would be if they were being "honest."
That is not true. Let's look at insider trading. http://www.google.ca...

Insider trading is when you have connections with a company, and know what is happening within the company before the public does, giving you an advantage. This is a dishonest practice but can make you lots more money than if you were honest.

Or we can look at theft. Theft is a dishonest practice. But if you rob the right places, you can make more money in a day than most people make in a year. Dishonesty makes you much more money than being honest.

That person will never be trusted with anything, money, jobs, or any kind of responsibility and money can only bring so much happiness.
First, you don't need to be trusted with money when you have millions of dollars sitting in the bank, nor do you need a job. And second, money can buy happiness. What makes you happy? Whatever makes you happy, you can buy. For example, cars, houses, etc.

If a person is honest, they can always be trusted and although they would be poor, money will come to those who deserve and earn it most.
This does not always happen. This was the whole basis for the occupy protests. Many people are honest workers, like a construction worker. These people are paid minimum wage. Compare this to a CEO who practices insider trading and frauds. He would make more in a day than these people would make in their life time. Therefore, money does not come to those who deserve and earn it most.

Now, let's get into arguments.

C.1: Worry Free

When you have millions sitting in the bank, you have no more worries. You don't worry about oh, will I have enough money for my next bill? Enough money for food next week? etc. You always have enough money. You never need to worry about money problems again. In fact, almost all problems are a result of money. You can live a worry free life just by living off the interest for the rest of your life.

Furthermore, who recognizes your honesty anyways? It's not like someone will reward you for being honest. There is really no point in being honest. You might get friends, true, but with so much money, you can easily "buy" friends. Any benefit that can result from you being poor is also prevalent in you being rich. Therefore there is no benefit to being poor.

Also, when you are poor, you meet a lot of issues in life. You would not be able to live a lavish and carefree lifestyle as someone who is rich.

Therefore, it is much better to be dishonest and rich than honest and poor.


Debate Round No. 1
kms25

Pro

Well thank you for giving your input but since you pointed out all my reasoning lets check our yours.

I said, "Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies."
- Honesty IS an important quality. but by definition, honesty is defined as fairness and straightforwardness of conduct and adherence to the facts. Being honest does not mean a person has never lied. If I was debating "truthfulness and poor verse dishonest and rich" then I would be contradicting myself but instead I am not, as the definition of honesty proves my reasoning.

Secondly, I said, "Money comes and goes"
- Money DOES always come and go. Whether your poor or rich, money will always be in the world yours or not. If you save your money you will always have money but if you spend your money, income will come to those who deserve it most; working, holidays, fundraisers, literally anything can bring in money.

Next I said, "If a person is dishonest they aren't going to be making as much money as they would be if they were being honest."
- This is true. You brought up insider trading which is a dishonest practice and yes it brings money but what happens when they get in trouble for their dishonesty. Also you said, "If you rob the right places you can make more money in a day then most people make in a year." If robbing companies makes a person rich but in a dishonest way don't you think there will be consequences like jail or worse, why even risk that. I am pretty sure nobody would want to rob a company to make money if the outcome was jail or an even worse consequence.

Another thing I said that you brought up was, "If a person is dishonest they will never be trusted with anything, money jobs ect and money can only bring happiness."
- First of all, YOU DO need to be trusted with money because if your not, your money can get in the wrong hands and if your money gets in the wrong hands all of it will disappear. Secondly, money can't buy happiness, yes cars and houses can make your happy but so can a family, friends, co workers, or your health. Money can't buy your health and yes money can help bring happiness but eventually you get to a point and you may find money doesn't matter as much as you thought after all.

Lastly, yes it would be great to have millions in the bank to live a "worry free life" but thats not true at all. Even with a lot of money in the bank, you still need to worry about bills, food, ect. You need to worry about your family, your life, your health. Yes, problems are a result in money, in fact, the divorce rate in marriages has gone up drastically because of the income some people make and in families with a lot of money, people spend it foolishly on gambling and ect. which I'm not even going to get into because that is a whole other argument but being rich isn't all fun and games. Oh and one more thing, although you wouldn't be rewarded for being honest don't you think it would feel much better knowing you didn't have to lie to get somewhere in life. You said, "There is really no point in being honest," when in fact being honest is a huge deal, it brings you friends, family, and a good life, with or without money and if your so willing to "buy" your friends, they will never be true to you instead they will only use you. Therefore it is much better to be honest and poor then dishonest and rich
Hardcore.Pwnography

Con

Let's jump straight into refutation.

R.1:

Let's look at your line of reasoning again: "Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies."

This is a contradiction, believe it or not. Look at your verb usage. "Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies."

Both the bolded terms indicate that it is the present tense. This is a contradiction because it is in the present tense. You cannot be honest, presently, right now, when everybody (which includes you) is lying right now, now a days.

True, being honest does not mean a person has never lied. But being honest does mean that a person is not lying. Basically, what I'm getting at, is you cant be honest and lie at the same time. This is what is you are saying because of the present tense verbs in your sentence. Therefore, it is still a contradiction.

Also, thank you for clarifying the second sentence of money flow for me.


R.2:

Please note that Pro concedes this point to me. Pro agrees that being dishonest brings in more money.


R.3:

Pro says: "I am pretty sure nobody would want to rob a company to make money if the outcome was jail or an even worse consequence."

That is easily refuted. There are accounting scandals and frauds all the time. The risk is jail, but however, people still do accounting frauds, essentially robbing the company, to make money.

Just look at WorldCom: http://www.guardian.co.uk...

Pro also brings up the point: "What if people are caught for their dishonest acts?"

Obviously, if you are going to commit accounting scandal or a heist, you are going to plan it out carefully, to minimize detection. Therefore, there is little chance of getting caught. However, if you are caught, by that time you will already have hundreds of millions of dollars in several offshore accounts which you can easily use to bail yourself out of jail, or bribe officials. Humans are naturally greedy. The likihood of someone accepting a bribe to release you is very high. Therefore, you can easily evade jail.

R.3:

First of all, why does someone need to be trusted with money, if he already has hundreds of millions in his back pocket? There is no need. It doesn't matter if no one will trust you with money. You already have tons of that.

Secondly, Pro agrees that "yes money can help bring happiness".
But apparently, there comes a point where money does not matter anymore. Really? When is that point? Money will always matter, no matter what. You will always need money in life, you cannot live without it. Therefore, money will always matter.

Furthermore, money can buy health. There are several expensive drugs that are vital to cure certain diseases that many poorer people can't afford. Those people will die because they don't have access to these drugs. People who are rich can buy these drugs and cure themselves. Essentially, buying health. Therefore, money can buy health.

Time to defend my arguments.

D.1: Worry Free

Please explain how you can possibly worry about a $100 energy bill when you have millions sitting in the bank. Someone who has minimum wage income would worry about these kinds of things. But to someone who has millions in the bank, $100 is small fry.

Pro also agrees with me: " Yes, problems are a result in money", problems come from the lack of money.

Pro also says: "although you wouldn't be rewarded for being honest don't you think it would feel much better knowing you didn't have to lie to get somewhere in life"

Firstly, depends on what you mean by somewhere in life. As the resolution is "honest and poor", you would not be anywhere in life, you would be poor, living in a ghetto. How would that make you feel better? What would make anyone feel better is living in a nice penthouse suite with hundreds of dollar bills in your back pocket, not living in the slums.

Pro also says: "Being honest is a huge deal".

It really isn't a huge deal. So many people lie on their resumes, because it really isn't a big deal. Marketers cheat consumers all the time with false advertising, because it isn't a big deal. Sales people exagerrate to potential customers because it isn't a big deal. CEO's exagerrate their company's earnings because it isn't a big deal.

In our world today, there are lies everywhere. Nobody thinks twice about it. This proves that in our world, honest isn't a huge deal at all. Therefore, being dishonest is not a big deal. Therefore, it is better to be dishonest and rich than honest and poor.

Oh, your last point: "being honest is a huge deal, it brings you friends, family, and a good life, with or without money and if your so willing to "buy" your friends, they will never be true to you instead they will only use you"

Being dishonest by cheating can get you a good life, because you have lots of money. You have a family whether or not you are honest, it doesn't really matter. You can be a serial killer and still have a family. IT is not as if being honest is the only way you can get a family. As for friends, I'm sure you can make friends with someone equally as dishonest as you.

C.2: Dishonest jobs

There are several jobs that require you to be dishonest. Such as a professional poker player for example. You play poker for a living. Poker is a game where you have to be dishonest in order to win and rake in chips, your income essentially. IF you be honest, you will not get an income, you will not get any chips. You cannot support your family. Being dishonest, though, however, gets you income. And the more dishonest you are, the more income you can get, and support and give a better quality of life to your family. It is much better to be dishonest rather than honest in this situation. I challenge pro to provide me a reason that remaining honest, when your job is a professional poker player, is much better than being dishonest.

Conclusion

Because of several dropped points from pro, I have won this debate. I have easily proved my BOP while Pro only manages weak arguments about morality. As Con, I believe that the basic principles of life come first. As humans, our first priority is self survival and self betterment. This can easily be done through dishonesty. As humans, it is only natural to take the easier path by being dishonest. Therefore, being dishonest and rich is legitimate and much better than honest and poor.


Debate Round No. 2
kms25

Pro

Not over yet..

"Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering now a days everyone lies."
- To end this, it is not a contradiction. You said in round 1 that the contradiction was that you can't be honest and lie at the same time when I clearly stated to you that to be honest doesn't mean a person has never lied before and now we are talking about past and present tense. "You cannot be honest, presently, right now, when everybody is lying right now, now a days." The correct usage of honest the way I used it was not in present tense, in fact, I simply stated a fact, "Honesty is a really important quality in a person." Period. Then I stated that, "Now a days everybody lies." Stating yet another fact, that almost every single person in their lives has lied at least once. You also stated, "You can't be honest and lie at the same time," when actually you can be honest and lie at the same time. For example, I can tell you that you make good points and your going to win this debate. First part is honesty, second parts a lie.

Secondly, I didn't agree with you that being dishonest brings in more money. You stated in round one that, "It depends on how you spend your money and that if you save your money the money will only come and never go." I simply said, that money does always come and go and that income will come to those who deserve it most.

Next, You stated, "If you are caught, by that time you will already have hundreds of millions of dollars in several accounts." This is a false statement because if a person committed a crime, scandal, or robbery the money would have been returned and the companies would have been insured and when they catch the person who has done the crime, the money that has recently been put onto their account regardless of if it was an offshore account would have notified the companies of this act therefore would have no money to get out of jail or bribe officials like you say. Humans may be greedy but they are also very stupid and with this, they cant get out of jail.

Next, how could you say someone with a lot of money doesn't need to be trusted with it? Funny you should say "It doesn't matter if no one will trust you with money. You already have tons of that," because if you are not trusted with money, like I said in round 2 it can disappear easily and if you stick to that reasoning above the "tons of money you have" will be gone in no time.

Secondly you ask, "When is there a point where money can't bring happiness." That point is when you have all the cars in the world, and the millions of dollars of houses, boats, and whatever else and you bought all your relationships with friends, family, co workers, and yet your still unhappy because even though you have nothing but the money in your life you can't buy happiness. Take a look at this,

http://finance.yahoo.com...

- "Only 10-12% of our happiness experience comes from money."
- "Real happiness comes when you have fulfillment, you have creative expression, you enjoy your work, you're engaged, you make other people happy, you have meaning and purpose in your life."

Also, I said, "Although you wouldn't be rewarded for being honest don't you think it would feel much better knowing you didn't have to lie to get somewhere in life," and you asked what I mean by somewhere in life. Clearly, it is somewhere where a person will want to be and somewhere that makes a person happy. You can't say that if a person is, 'honest and poor" then there will be nowhere in life because people who are rich do not live great lives like we assume. You can't say that poor people live in the ghetto either because that's discrimination. Not all poor people live in the ghetto and where exactly is the ghetto?

You state, "What would make anyone feel better is living in a nice penthouse suite with hundred of dollar bills in your back pocket, not living in the slums." This is an unrealistic fantasy, and although it looks like people who are rich live great lives I can promise you they are not as happy as it may seem.

You say being honest isn't a huge deal when in fact it is a huge deal. You say lying on a resume is not a big deal but a person can lie all they want on their resume, when it comes down to being hired or not and the owner asks the person to live up to the qualities and aspectations on their resume and they are unable to, how embarrassing is that going to be. False advertising is another huge deal that you gladly pointed out. You say it is not a big deal when it is. All the creams, hair products, makeup, weight loss machines and weight loss programs advertised online and on television are all a huge scandal when half of them don't even work and they are being dishonest. Companies like nutrisystem, proactive, and other companies that are honest make much more money than those scandals that are dishonest.

Lastly, you say cheating can get you a good life when thats not true and as much as you believe that a person can be a serial killer and still have a family. That so called "family" isn't going to want ANYTHING to do with that kind of a person. Serial killer probably wasn't the right example or correct terminology.

Overall, I do not believe you won this debate because a person can't live a life of dishonesty and be rich and still obtain happiness. For one thing money can only make you so happy, you will never be trusted with anything in your life, you will have no true friends, family, co workers, ect and living a life of dishonestly will get you no where in life, rich or poor. As humans you say, "it is only natural for self survival and self betterment," but did you know that as humans it is also only natural for humans to know right from wrong which clearly some humans aren't aware of. You say "It is only natural to take the easier path by being dishonest." It is also natural by taking the easier path and not lying your way through life. Therefore being honest and poor is the correct way and the proper way of living a much better life.
Hardcore.Pwnography

Con

The Honesty Contradiction

This is not even an important issue in this debate. However, clearly there is a contradiction.
According to google.com, honesty is: the act of being free of deceit and untruthfulness, sincere
http://www.google.ca...

Also according to google, a lie is: an intentionally false statement
http://www.google.ca...;

Now Pro says that you can be honest and lie at the same time. This clearly makes no sense. How can you be sincere, free of deceit and untruthfulness, if you are intentionally telling a false statement? If you are intentionally deceiving others? It is clearly a contradiction. You can't be sincere and deceitful at the same time.

When Pro says " I can tell you that you make good points and your going to win this debate. First part is honesty, second parts a lie.", obviously Pro was not sincere about the first statement, because if I have good points, how can I not win this debate?

Is dishonesty profitable?

A major point of the debate. If you look at round two, Pro says: "You brought up insider trading which is a dishonest practice and yes it brings money". Clearly Pro agreed with me here.

How bad are the consequences of dishonest?

Pro says: " if a person committed a crime, scandal, or robbery the money would have been returned and the companies would have been insured and when they catch the person who has done the crime, the money that has recently been put onto their account regardless of if it was an offshore account would have notified the companies of this act therefore would have no money to get out of jail or bribe officials like you say".

Really longwinded sentence, but basically, Pro says if you're caught, the authorities will take all your money and you can't bribe people anymore. The second part is related to the first statement, so if I can prove the first statement, I have also proven the second.

The whole point of an offshore account is so that the money is untracable. In accounting scandals, the money is always sent to an offshore account so that authorities will not be able to find the money and trace it back to them.

Therefore, an offshore account would not be found. Therefore, you would still have money. Therefore, you would be able to bribe people to get out of jail. Therefore, the consequences of being dishonest are not bad at all, as you still get to keep some of your profits after bribing to get out of jail.

As Pro says, "Humans may be greedy." Therefore, Pro agrees with me that officials will take a bribe to release the criminal.

Trustworthiness of a dishonest person?

Pro thinks that not being trusted with money ever again is a huge deal to someone who has millions of dollars in his back pocket. So what if people don't trust you with money anymore? You already have so much money, it doesn't matter to you if people don't trust you with money..

Pro also thinks your money will disappear easily, however pro does not provide any evidence to back this up. How will it disappear easily? "Your money will be gone in no time?" How foolish. With hundreds of millions in the bank, you earn millions a year on interest alone. The money would not be going anywhere soon.

Money = Happiness ?

Pro says that the point where money can't buy happiness is: "when you have all the cars in the world, and the millions of dollars of houses, boats".

First, it is not possible to have all the cars in the world. As it is impossible, it would never happen at all. Therefore, you would never reach that point in life. Therefore, money will always be able to buy happiness.

Furthermore, as to your yahoo source: it says that 10-12% of happiness comes from money.
There is not enough information here. IT does not detail the other factors that cause happiness.

For all you know, 10-12% may just be the biggest percentage of your happiness. For example, 12% would come from money, 8% from family, 10% from health, 10% from work, 10% from hobbies, etc. All under 12%, but in the end, adding to 100%, your total happiness. Thus, in this case, the highest percentage of happieness would come from money. Therefore, the source is not a credible source as it does not give you enough information.

Honesty = feels better?

Pro says that: " it would feel much better knowing you didn't have to lie to get somewhere in life" and that somewhere is "where a person will want to be and somewhere that makes a person happy."

The thing is, when you are honest and poor, you want to be rich and live nicely. Howvever, that isn't possible because you are honest and poor. Therefore, you would never reach where you want to be in life. Therefore, you would never feel much better knowing that you didn't have to lie to get somewhere, as you never got where you wanted to be.

And yes, all poor people (poor as being below the poverty line) live in slums and ghettos located in cities around the world. They wouldn't be living in slums and ghettos if they weren't poor.

Pro says, in response to my argument that living in a suite will make anyone feel better, with "it is an unrealistic fantasy, and although it looks like people who are rich live great lives I can promise you they are not as happy as it may seem."

Yes, it is an unrealistic fantasy for some, however, it would still make anyone feel better. And I don't know about you, but rich people certainly do look very happy and live great lives.

Honesty, a big deal?

resume: yes, you can lie all you want on your resume. But the point is, because you lied, you got hired, you got somewhere in life because you were dishonest. IF you were honest and told the truth, you might have been hired and you would never have gotten where you wanted to get.

false advertising: yes, but it works. It certainly gets much more consumers that if they were advertising the truth. Therefore, again, the benefit of being dishonest.

Pro drops my argument about CEOs exagerrating profits.

Therefore, the benefits of being dishonest outweight those of being honest, proving that honesty is not a big deal.

Cheating and family?

Pro does not seem to know what a family is. Family always back you up, no matter how lying, deceitful, and mean you are. That is just what families do. There is really no argument on this, as families always tend to support you no matter what.

Dishonest jobs

Pro drops this point completely and ignores it.

Conclusion

Therefore, because of several dropped points, I have won this debate. The main clash in this debate, I have shown above. On each of these major clashes, I have won. I have proved my points and disproved Pros. I have shown benefits of being dishonest, and Pro attemtped to show the benefits of being honest, however I refuted those completely.

Therefore, it is obvious that I have won this debate.

Vote CON.


Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
kms25Hardcore.PwnographyTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: the debate seemed to be a fight about which was more important, money or honesty, and the con showed how in today's society honesty can be less valued than money and showed that dishonesty may not equate to happiness as well as money does
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 5 years ago
RoyLatham
kms25Hardcore.PwnographyTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Consider "Good health is important when everybody is sick." It's not a contradiction because the issue is "importance" independent of the fact of wealth. The contradiction is in supposing that dishonesty can be "worry free." Con is in the position of making an extraordinary claim, and didn't provide extraordinary proof. It's spelled "nowadays." Both sides were clear and coherent. Nice debate.
Vote Placed by THEBOMB 5 years ago
THEBOMB
kms25Hardcore.PwnographyTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro dropped numerous points throughout the debate. Con also showed money=happiness, Pro failed to show how no money=happiness adequately.