The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
Edril
Con (against)

How Can Any Intelligent Person Believe That god is Good?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/11/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 238 times Debate No: 105733
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

Taken from - http://howgodworks.com...;
Are you a Christian believer? Do you believe that your God is a good and moral being? In this post, I would like to show you something surprising about your thinking – you will find yourself seeing the world from a different perspective after reading this.

What I would like to propose to you is simple: the only way that you can believe that God is “good” and “moral” is to use a process called doublethink. You must allow yourself to believe two contradictory ideas simultaneously. Or you must hold on to one belief, while forcing yourself to ignore all of the evidence that contradicts your belief.

Think about the story of Noah’s ark in the book of Genesis. God declares in Genesis 6 his premeditated intention to kill every living thing on earth:

17 "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

Then the Bible records in Genesis 7 that God actually did murder everything on earth:

"21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."

Is murdering every living thing on earth right or wrong? Obviously it is wrong – it is absolutely evil. God is clearly a monster in this story.

To know that God wiped out “every living thing on the face of the earth”, but to also believe that God is good, is a perfect example of doublethink.

Many Christians will, incredibly, try to justify God’s actions in this story. The fact that they do this is fascinating, because it demonstrates how distorted religious thinking can be. A Christian, in trying to justify God’s actions in this story, might say:

God had to punish them… they deserve to die for committing acts of sin

Think about how irrational a statement like that is. First, let’s remind ourselves that the story of Noah’s ark is a myth. None of this actually happened as described in the Bible. But within the context of the myth, this god is omnipotent and omniscient. He therefore has a hundred options available besides global mass murder of every adult, child, infant, animal and plant on the planet (except, in the myth, those on the ark). For example:

* God could have created mankind correctly to begin with, since God started with a blank sheet of paper in the Genesis myth.
* God could have planned better, since according to Christians God has a plan for everyone.
* Instead of starting with Adam, God could have started with Noah and avoided the mass murder.
* God could have come down to earth and created an education system to remediate the evil he did not like. Through education, God could have taught people how he wanted them to behave.
* God could have sent Jesus at this time, rather than later.
* And so on

Global mass murder is always evil. This makes the mythological god in the Bible a monster. The plague on the firstborn in Exodus 12 is another example of monstrous evil:

"29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle."

The fact that a Christian can say that God is good, while also seeing undeniable examples of his monstrosity in the Bible, is a great example of doublethink.

RULES:
Prove that god is not evil and do not reroute the "doublethink" this article is talking about.



dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
Edril

Con

To clarify the wording of the debate, considering you chose pro (arguing for) and proceeded to argue that God is not good and is instead evil, I'm assuming the notion is "God is evil" and I will argue against this as con.

If the Christian god exists as defined by the bible that you quoted, then the concept of "morally good" can only be defined as an adjective or adverb meaning "in accordance with God's will".

God is infallible and is therefore incapable of acting against his own will, since that would be a mistake.

Therefore, everything God has done, including mass genocide, is morally good because it was in accordance with God's will.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

I can't even argue with a total idiot like you. Bye.
Edril

Con

Pro's last argument was ad hominem (ironically enough) and seems to me to also be a forfeiture.

I wonder if Pro considers executioners to be evil. They kill people, albeit with legal authority. If the God of the bible existed, then he would have ultimate authority in all matters.

I'd be interested in Pro's definition of objective morality.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Edril 1 month ago
Edril
@Sometimes_smart
If God is personal, then morality based on his will is subjective reality. If you use the term god interchangeably with reality itself, then it doesn't have a moral dictation. Either way, we are bereft of objective morality.
Now to switch sides.... No, good is not contingent on the existence, or even the potential existence of evil. No one has been able to show the logic of this non sequitur to me.
God, if all powerful and all good, wouldn't allow evil to exist. Why did he make like contingent on it's mass killing of other lives (metabolism). Why are greed, lust, malice, etc. hardwired into our minds? No one chooses to have the urge to steal, rape, or murder.
You can have free will without having the option of choosing evil, just like you can have free will without the possibility of an infinite amount of logically possible thoughts that we are currently unable to have.

Even the popular christian viewpoint allows for perfected paradise while also having free will: heaven. Heaven is a perfect paradise, with zero evil and suffering as well as free will.

One last thing, could you specifically define what free will is? Because, if you really pay attention, free will makes no sense. You don't choose your thoughts, they simply arise in your consciousness. You are a spectator, at best, of your thoughts just like you are a spectator of these words.
Posted by backwardseden 1 month ago
backwardseden
23. Yes. And they are solvable - but we gotta get rid of religion as part of it.
24. Ignored
25. Hell doesn"t exist.
26. No. B.S.
27. No.
28. *yawn*
29. No.
30. You FINALLY asked a good question here. That"d be up to each individual.
31. Boring.
32. Sin---doesn"t---exist. Your bible contradicts (not a surprise) itself to prove this.
33. 100 million% true and atheists are BY FAR more moral than christians.
A. false
B. true
C. It is not evil to rape according to you god. According to atheists it is evil to rape. However AGAIN evil does NOT need to exist.
34. Sexuallity for christians is not sacred, its absurd. "Why would they then allow homosexuality which they believe profanes sexuality." The bible gives no "why" Therefore its absurd for your unproved god AND christians to be against gays.
Ah yes, why don"t we all pass laws that should deny equality to those that are religious and believe in god? After all, it is they that hunt down the gays in numbers only with mammoth amounts of $$$$$ here in this country as they so lovingly trot their steps. Without their pathetic cowardly hateful religion, as god hates even children for jeez sakes, with their thankfully failing and fading numbers and $$$$$, yep, you can count on it, the issue of being gay here in this country would fizzle like a log cabin without the syrup and everybody who is gay would be accepted as being normal. Indeed it is religion and god that is highly abnormal because of all of its needless inspired hate. Now hate me all you want. That's exactly what your god demands.
a. Rape is not a sin according to god.
b. "All sin is an act of falling short of God's glory." that"s why sin doesn"t exist.
c. boy did you miss the mark.

Anymore idiotic preschool questions/ statements that go WOOF from a screaming owl? Wow. Stunningingly boring.
Posted by backwardseden 1 month ago
backwardseden
2. You can"t prove god exists. And prove it. And who cares?
If you believe in god in no way do you have Free Will.
https://www.youtube.com... An All Knowing god versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
https://www.youtube.com... Free Will With god
https://www.youtube.com... How god Favors Evil
https://www.youtube.com... Does god allow Free Will?
3 - 7 is ignored you need to prove it because you cannot prove god.
8. christ is not the messiah and you cannot prove he even existed. So a,b,c are ignored.
9. People are far too good for god.
10. god in no way let"s man be free. Are you joking? Or are you just plain ignorant and stupid? What are the stupid 10 commandments listed 3 times and changed 3 times?
11. Ignored.
12. Objective morality exists within all of us, not god, not christ, they are evil and hate. They hate children.
13.ignored.
14. You"d have to determine what is right and wrong. But through others who are good, not god and christ, and abandoning ALL religion is the only way for worldwide peace along with a fe other things.
15. No. because no god(s) are proved.
16. An unproved god is always wrong.
17. Your god would not use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.
18. Duh. no.
19. Duh. no.
20. Duh. no.
21. YOUR god IS genocide.
Oh you really want numbers? Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan combined. Here's some examples... 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813 etc etc etc
22. Ignored.
Posted by backwardseden 1 month ago
backwardseden
@sometimes_smart or never_wise Just as I thought" absolutely 0% answers for the questions posed to you the typical christian sweaty piece of a$$ wipe. But that"s true of all christians with no surprise. All you are is a pathetic idiot moron who cannot possibly follow his god even if he wanted to. Here"s a perfect example" Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." So since I do not believe and am trying to sway you, then you come on down here and stone me to death. AND you stone all others who do not believe as well. YOU follow YOUR god"s scummy orders! Oh but wait you are not going to do it? Why____? Why not____?
Also pay attention to these vidies since you think you are so smort, sorry smart"
https://www.youtube.com... - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?
https://www.youtube.com... - top 10 reasons why the bible is repulsive

Now its time to destroy you with your idiot #"s" Oh and some (obviously) will be ignored as they have to do with either the same thing that"s been REPEATED or evil, or previously EXPLAINED:
1. Totally 100% false. Only in god"s world. You do not see that anywhere close to that in Buddhism, Hinduism, the aborigines, the Inca, Gaia Mother Earth, nearly all native American Indian Indian tribes before YOUR sad pathetic religious christian brethren sweaty pig wipen them out. Evil is NOT a necessity. Evil is NOT a requirement, Evil is NOT a need. Only according to YOUR god it is. Pathetic. So every question you state that brings up evil will be ignored.
Posted by sometimes_smart 1 month ago
sometimes_smart
17. Is one of the functions of the old testament to record history?
18. Does the bible support all of the accounts which occur within it?
19. Does a history book support all of the accounts it records?
20. Do history classes support the holocaust simply because they mention it?
21. Does God support genocide simply because He destroyed the amalachites when they threatened Israel?
a. Didn't groups like the philastines continuously raid the Israelites after warnings until God finally said enough?
22. Would it be evil for God to destroy all life because humans are evil?
23. Wouldn't you agree that the problem with the world is mankind?
24. Does justice make God evil?
25. Isn't the idea of fire when talking about hell figurative for judgement?
26. Should we take everything in revelation literally?
27. Wouldn't separation from God and eternal goodness be in itself hell?
28. Hell is not eternal torture by fire, it is eternal torture by isolation from the most high.
29. Shouldn't a rapist who admits that he would be lost without God and repents be allowed in to heaven to experience God?
30. Shouldn't an atheist who claims that he doesn't need God be barred from him for all eternity?
31. Did Christ simply pay the price for the moderate sinners, or did he pay the price for all sinners?
32. Sin is a disease
a. Christ is the antidote
b. If you reject the antidote won't you die of the disease?
33. Atheist can definitely live moral lives apart from God.
A. God provides an objective morality.
B. Anyone can obey objective laws regardless of whether or not they affirm them.
C. It is evil to rape, but that does not mean that Atheists are forced to rape.
34. Sexuality for a Christian is sacred. Why would they then allow homosexuality which they believe profanes sexuality.
a. Homosexuality is a sin, but so is lying, and so is rape.
b. All sin is an act of falling short of God's glory.
c. All people miss the mark... They are shadows of God.
Posted by sometimes_smart 1 month ago
sometimes_smart
@backwardseden

That was a very emotional response. Instead of an emotional drabble filled with logical fallacies, I will state my points coherently and succinctly.

1. In order to have good acts, there must be such a thing as evil acts.
2. There are essentially 3 different possible worlds God could've made
a) A world where humans always choose good.
b) A world where humans always choose evil.
c) A world where humans can chose and have free will.
3. If you have free will concerning morality, then by definition, there is a potentiality for evil acts. Note: God did not create evil, he created a potential for evil which is actualized by humans with free will.
4. If there are evil actions, then there must be a moral to appeal to.
5. If God created all life, then He has the right to destroy it if it becomes evil.
6. God is completely holy, so He cannot tolerate evil.
7. Hell is not eternal torture, it is eternal separation from God.
8. Christ paid the price for all, so all are welcome to the salvation.
a. Does the severity of the crime determine whether or not you receive salvation, or is it the willingness to let someone else pay the price your stead?
b. If you live life without God, why would you be upset when you inherit eternal separation from him?
c. Should my neighbour be barred from salvation if he did a couple more things wrong than me? Am I not more righteous than him?
9. Are humans worthy to question the character of a sovereign God? I think Job did that once.
10. If God lets man be free, can you blame God when man does evil? Are you free to blame?
11. Is it wrong for a perfectly holy and good to judge evil? Would it be better if He ignored it?
12. Does justice exist without an objective morality?
13. Does evil exist without an objective morality?
14. Does moral accountability exist if determinism is true?
15. Isn't judging a God for judging ironic?
16. Is what is wrong for a human wrong for God?
Posted by backwardseden 1 month ago
backwardseden
Is hating gays and wanting to stone them to death evil? Y____? N____? Is deliberate unwarranted genocide evil? Y____? N____? Is hating children evil? Y____? N____? Is believing in different gods a warrant for death? Y____? N____? Is not believing in YOUR god worthy of being stoned to death? Y____? N____? All of these your god has freely admitted to and instigated. Ah yes indeed and if you do not know that then indeed you know NOTHING about your god. Now get this smarty" YOUR god could have easily whisked all of those things away and brought in an era of peace, love, harmony, kindness, care for each other etc etc etc. Nah. He chose that list above all that evil, anger, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy (in which he has admitted to several times for all of them) Jealousy? Jealousy is nothing more than anger as disguised fear. And even worse is this god of YOURS neatly passed down these emotions to man so in turn man could learn to hate. Even worse is that since YOUR god has these emotions, it means he carries around all this baggage with him AND it means he"s imperfect. Great going god. Great going you for worshiping that thing.
I get it also because your sad pathetic religion teaches forgiveness" You have a person who rapes, beats, tortures 6 five year old girls (who in which were ALL CREATED by your god btw), and kills them, and it knowingly brought before the bench. According to your sad horrific religion, you are to forgive this monster if he finds christ and or god. WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK. But if I am to keep to myself, do good as always, not bother anyone, ESPECIALLY NOT KILL ANYONE and NOT find YOUR sad pathetic whimpering god or christ, I am to be doomed to this make believe hell and be denied a place in heaven. Well goodie for me. All the more reason for me to deny YOUR god and christ.
Oh and btw, Atheists as a whole are a lot more peaceful than those who believe in god. BY FAR. Google a simple "Who is more peaceful atheists VS those who believe in god".
Posted by backwardseden 1 month ago
backwardseden
@sometimes_smart - More like never_wise should be your login.
Who cares what the "bible" teaches? Did it ever even install to your microchip He-Man She-Ra bionic trunder pus brain that the bible is actually "wrong"? Wow. What a thought. But then again its rather clear that you do not have the power to thin, rationalize, reason, use common sense, nor use logic because you, your god, your religion nor your bible requires a sliver of an atom of it.
You are sitting here by yourself with only a few, extremely few padlocked christians trying to justify the MURDER of innocent babies still suckling on their mother"s breasts because that"s exactly what happened during the great flood according to YOUR bible in which never happened. YOU are trying also also justify the MURDER of children and pregnant mothers. So SHEBANG wow and like that YOUR god has committed abortions in which you christians are horrified at. Wow what a super major hypocritical contradiction in which YOUR bible is filled with thousands of super major hypocritical contradictions and inconsistencies thus making it unreadable in which YOUR god would NOT use text form the worst form of communication possible to begin with. Duh. (not doing so well are yah snookums? Oh and btw, you just like every person who has ever lived cannot even prove that your god even exists. Wow. What a major blow to you.)
So your god did in no way create all living things as you have 0% proof of it. Its just your maw spewing off that it did. No what you say is "I don"t know". Because you don"t know. No one does. Too bad that those three simple words are terrorist words to christians because YOUR god must be perfect in every way possible. A little hint for you... (psttt sorry according to YOUR printed text, he isn"t.)
Punishment for evil acts. Let"s look at that" Do you believe that" Is killing evil? Y____? N____? Is slavery evil? Y____? N____? Is rape evil? Y____? N____?
Posted by sometimes_smart 1 month ago
sometimes_smart
@ Edril

Not necessarily. For the Christian, God is prime reality. He is considered to be perfectly holy, and perfectly good. Since the Christian believes that he created all things and is prime reality, it follows that his nature is what defines the objective morality of all things. Thus, since we know that objective morality is defined by the author of all things (including space and time) and we know that God is completely holy and his nature completely good, it must follow that God is the source of objective morality.

The dilemma you raised is that objective morality is external to everything including God. But if you think of God in terms of prime reality, or "the really real", you see that he is actually the ultimate external source for everything.

I may have over complicated it, but I believe the foundation of the claim is sound. There is also the divine command theory you can research.
Posted by Edril 1 month ago
Edril
Sometimes_smart, if morality is bound to the existence of God, then it is still subjective, with God being the subject.
Objective morality, if it exists, by definition, would have to exist whether God agreed with it or not. It would have to exist even if God didn't exist. Else, it wouldn't be objective.
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