The Instigator
backwardseden
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The Contender
TylerLamb
Con (against)
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How can anyone ignore all of the EXCUSES believers require?

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after 1 vote the winner is...
TylerLamb
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/14/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 382 times Debate No: 105842
Debate Rounds (5)
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backwardseden

Pro

Taken from: http://howgodworks.com...;
Have you ever thought about how many excuses and rationalizations believers have to come up with to explain their beliefs? Here is a simple example of the problem:


Someone: "Why won"t the resurrected Jesus appear to me?"

Christian: "Because that would take away faith."

Someone: "But the Bible says that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people. Obviously it doesn"t take away faith."

Christian: "Jesus doesn"t need to appear to prove his resurrection."

Someone: "Yes he does " I will not believe in Jesus unless I see the evidence, just like Thomas and Paul and hundreds of other people in the Bible needed to see the evidence. I am no different from Paul."

Christian: "Too bad " you will suffer eternal, conscious torture in a lake of fire in hell as a result of your disbelief."

Someone: "You believe that God/Jesus is omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipresent and perfect. How can such a being withhold the evidence that any normal person would require, knowing that I will end up suffering eternal, conscious torture in a lake of fire in hell as a result? He is violating his definition to do that."

Christian: "Too bad " It is not God"s will for Jesus to appear now. You are going to hell."

Someone: "The Bible says that God/Jesus answers prayers. In John 14:14 Jesus says: "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."" In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there," and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."" If nothing will be impossible for me, then why won"t the resurrected Jesus appear?"

Christian: "You take verses on prayer out of context. You view God as a cosmic genie who has to answer prayers."

Someone: "But it says right there, plain as day, that nothing will be impossible for me. How am I taking it out of context?"

Christian: "Jesus did say that he answers prayer, but I have no idea how many times I have to tell you that God answers prayers that align with His will."

Someone: "But if God only answers prayers that align with his will, then what Jesus said is wrong. What Jesus should have said, if Jesus is perfect and the Bible is infallible, is "nothing will be impossible to you, as long as it is God"s will already, and as long as it is actually possible." You have just proven that Jesus is imperfect and the Bible contains a flaw."

Christian: "No I have not, because""

Any normal, rational person can see the problem here. All of these excuses and rationalizations make no sense. They are so convoluted that believers end up violating other parts of their beliefs, which they then have to patch over, but that creates other problems" A believer"s brain is a mess of tangles and doublethink as a result. And that tells us that what believers believe is not true.

Everything in our universe tells us that God is imaginary. There is no indication that there is anything supernatural happening in our universe, and no reason to suspect that there should be.

But believers attempt to overlay our universe with a number of supernatural properties based on their beliefs. The beliefs include:

Whenever in () its me backwardseden saying something
* God and Jesus are real (HA HA TEE TEE now go ahead and prove it because NO ONE ELSE HAS)
* But all of the other gods humans have come up with are imaginary
* The Bible is the word of God (the god of the bible would not use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible)
* The Bible is infallible (HA HA TEE HEE)
* The Bible is the source for human morality and ethics (HA HA TEE HEE in no way can this possibly be true because if so then the entire human race is in a world of despair)
* God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, perfect, etc.(prove it)
* God created the universe, the earth, all species on earth and Adam and Eve (prove it)
* Macro-evolution never happens (prove it)
* The earth is approximately 6,000 years old. (HA HA TEE HEE)
* Noah"s flood happened 4,300 years ago. (HA HA TEE HEE)
* God created all human languages and scattered people a hundred years after the flood. (prove it)
* Jesus is God"s son, born of a virgin. (prove it)
* Jesus performed many miracles on earth. (jesus wasn't even the messiah)
* Jesus was crucified and died (there's no proof jesus even existed)
* Jesus came back to life three days after dying (prove it)
* Jesus proved that he is resurrected by appearing to hundreds of people (HA HA TEE HEE) (prove it)
* Jesus" resurrection proves that Jesus is God (nope)
* God needs 10% of everyone"s income as a tithe (HA HA TEE HEE)
* God does answer prayers (HA HA TEE HEE) (nope nobody can prove god exists)
* God does have personal relationships with people ((HA HA TEE HEE) (nope nothing like that is mentioned in the bible)
* Heaven and Hell are real places (HA HA TEE HEE) (prove iit)
* People have souls which are sorted into either heaven or hell after death (prove iit)
* All humans, even infants and small children, are sinful and deserve eternal, conscious torment in hell (prove iit)
* But by believing in Jesus humans get sorted into heaven, which is super-wonderful, and everyone else goes to hell for their eternal, conscious torment in a lake of fire. (prove iit and what MORON would want to?)
And so on"

The problem with all of these beliefs is that believers are constantly having to make myriad excuses and rationalizations to justify them, and many of the excuses and rationalizations are quite convoluted. Even worse, some of these beliefs directly oppose mainline scientific thought or are provably impossible. Others are morally obscene in their ramifications. Many are internally inconsistent.

Let me give you an example. Let"s say someone asks a question like this:

Someone: "How can God, who is defined as an omnibenevolent, omniscient, perfect being, create hell, which, as an eternal, conscious place of torment in a lake of fire, is absolutely evil? God would have to be an evil being to do this."

A rational person would answer: "God is imaginary and hell does not exist."

That is an incredibly simple, straightforward answer based on the real universe that we inhabit. Now look at how a Christian handles the same question:

Someone: "How can God, who is defined as an omnibenevolent, omniscient, perfect being, create hell, which, as an eternal, conscious place of torment in a lake of fire, is absolutely evil? God would have to be an evil being to do this."

Christian: "We sin because we are sinners, not the other way around. Sin is like a spiritual genetic defect. Babies may not have sinned yet, but they have that genetic defect. Every human being deserves to be in Hell. The reason that Hell seems so evil is because you don"t see just how atrocious and heinous sin is."

Someone: "Didn"t God create human beings? Why create them that way if he then has to create hell as this place of absolute evil?"

Christian: "God has to punish evil because He is holy, perfect, and just."

Someone: "But God created everything. Why create evil?"

Christian: "God did not create evil. Adam and Eve created evil when they ate the forbidden fruit."

Someone: "Why would someone put a forbidden fruit in a garden? And have you ever read Genesis 1:29-30?"

Christian: [I have no idea how anyone can rationalize this]

Someone: "If that is the case, why create earth at all? Why not just create heaven, and install every human in heaven immediately."

Christian: [I have no idea how anyone could rationalize this]

Someone "If that is the case, then why create humans at all, if you omnisciently know that you will have to create this absolutely evil place and send billions of people there? Isn"t God perfect and omniscient? Why does something perfect and omniscient need to create anything?"

Christian: [I have no idea how anyone could rationalize this]

Someone: "If that is the case, why didn"t God create Jesus as one of his first acts and forgive everyone immediately, and then let Jesus appear to everyone so they believe in him? Then no one goes to hell."

Christian: [I have no idea how anyone could rationalize this]

Someone: "If that is the case, why doesn"t God come down and set up schools to teach people how he wants them to behave? Or why doesn"t God get inside people"s heads and yell at them when they are about to do something wrong? Or anything else, rather than the absolute evil of hell?"

Christian: [I assume a Christian would say, "That"s why God wrote the Bible."]

Someone: "But when we read the Bible, many parts of it are insane. Like Deuteronomy 22:28-29, which says: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Only someone who hates women can say that. This verse equates women to property. It violates women"s right to autonomy. It validates rape rather than punishing it. It allows men to marry women without the women"s consent. Etc. This is evil."

Christian: [I have no idea how anyone could rationalize this]

And so on. The big problem believers face here is that an all-good being cannot also create a place of absolute evil. No matter how you want to rationalize it, either God is evil or hell is impossible. Again it tells us that what believers believe is not true. All of the contradictions make their beliefs impossible.

Why would anyone want to believe these things? Why, for example, would anyone want to believe in a being who created a place of absolute evil called hell?

The thing that many believers never realize is that they do not need to believe these things. None of these beliefs are true, and therefore it is possible to walk away from them anytime you choose to do so.

Have you ever considered turning your back on all of these irrational beliefs? Have you ever considered seeing our world and our universe as it really is? If so, the book How God Works can be a valuable resource for you.
TylerLamb

Con

* God and Jesus are real (HA HA TEE TEE now go ahead and prove it because NO ONE ELSE HAS)
It is a historical fact that Jesus existed. Whether or not you believe He was the son of God doesn't matter, it is a fact that He is real [https://www.xenos.org...]. As for the existence of God, it is impossible to empirically prove or disprove His existence. What we can do is determine which is more likely, the existence of God or His non-existence. I would argue that God's existence is more likely, given the fact that we exist. The universe hasn't always existed, modern science now recognizes that, there was one point where the universe suddenly came into existence. If the universe did not always exist, then it did not have to exist. Given that the universe does currently exist, something must have caused that. This is commonly referred to as the Big Bang Theory. The Big Bang has been touted by atheists as a proof of God's nonexistence, but they fail to realize that the Big Bang actually shows more evidence of God. To start with, the Big Bang was originally theorized by a Catholic priest and was referred to by atheists as "Creationism in disguise" until it was accepted as scientific fact. If there was a bang, something must have caused it. If the universe didn't exist before the Big Bang, something beyond our universe must have caused it, that something being God. It takes a lot of faith to believe the universe sprang from nothing, but to believe the universe came from God is immensely more rational [https://www.prageru.com...].

* But all of the other gods humans have come up with are imaginary
If I understand, the question here is asking why I should believe Christianity as opposed to other religions. To start with, let's address the verifiability of the Bible. Events in the Bible line up to events from history, and many historians consider the Bible to be a factual source. This is what differs Christianity from many other religions. In Greek mythology, they believed their gods lived on top of a mountain. We have scaled that mountain and found no such gods, so it stands to reason that Greek mythology is, in fact, mythology. Christianity offers a historical validity that other religions do not. There's also the spiritual aspect. Christianity identifies humanity as what it is, a group of sinners in need of salvation. Other religions, such as Islam, also recognize that humans are sinners but insist that the proper way to reach heaven is to avoid sin and do good deeds. Obviously this is not true, crimes are not forgiven because of the good someone has done and wrongs are not righted by moral actions. A sinner cannot become good on their own, we need God's forgiveness.

* The Bible is the word of God (the god of the bible would not use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible)
It sounds like you think Christians claim the God Himself wrote the Bible. I'm sure some believe this, but that's not what the Catholic Church supports that the books of the Bible were written by man, inspired by God. I also don't understand what you mean, calling text the worse possible form of communication. Would you rather this all be taught by word of mouth?

* The Bible is infallible (HA HA TEE HEE)
The Bible is infallible, as it was inspired by God. The problem is that man is fallible, and can fail in properly interpreting the Bible. Watch this for a more in-depth explanation [https://www.youtube.com...].

* The Bible is the source for human morality and ethics (HA HA TEE HEE in no way can this possibly be true because if so then the entire human race is in a world of despair)
I don't know anyone who claims that the Bible is the source of human morality and ethics, but I do know people who claim that God is the source of our morals and ethics so I assume that's what you meant. Christians believe this because a God determining what is and isn't moral is the only way to definitively say what is morally good or evil [https://www.prageru.com...].

* God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, perfect, etc.(prove it)
The only way for God to have created everything is if that all was true. So, unless you defeat my argument against God's existence, this has been proven.

* God created the universe, the earth, all species on earth and Adam and Eve (prove it)
I refer back to my earlier argument, that the existence of our universe argues in favor of God given that something that doesn't have to exist must have a reason for existing [https://www.prageru.com...].

* Macro-evolution never happens (prove it)
Catholic teachings are not contrary to macro-evolution and the church does not claim evolution is a farce [https://www.catholic.com...].

* The earth is approximately 6,000 years old. (HA HA TEE HEE)
I don't know what people you have been talking to, but this belief is not held by the Catholic Church. In fact, both Young Earth Creationism and evolution are compatible with the Church's teachings [https://www.catholic.com...].

* Noah's flood happened 4,300 years ago. (HA HA TEE HEE)
The Smithsonian supports evidence for Noah's flood, but it's closer to 7,500 years ago [https://www.smithsonianmag.com...].

* God created all human languages and scattered people a hundred years after the flood. (prove it)
Archeological evidence of the Tower of Babel has been found [https://aleteia.org...].

* Jesus is God's son, born of a virgin. (prove it)
The only way to prove this is with documentation, as is the case with most historical events. You have read the documentation and don't believe it, so there's nothing I can do to convince you.

* Jesus performed many miracles on earth. (jesus wasn't even the messiah)
The only way to prove these miracles is with documentation, which you don't believe. The best I can do is refer you to further readings or modern-day miracles [https://churchpop.com...].

* Jesus was crucified and died (there's no proof jesus even existed)
Again, it's a historical fact that Christ existed. It's also a historical fact that a group of women found Christ's tomb empty the Sunday after His crucifixion, and there are people who testify they saw Christ after His death [https://www.desiringgod.org...]. When telling of His resurrection, Christ's disciples began preaching in Jerusalem, where Christ was crucified and buried. This would not be possible if Christ was still in His tomb, as people could have checked.

* Jesus came back to life three days after dying (prove it)
Again, it's a historical fact that Christ existed. It's also a historical fact that a group of women found Christ's tomb empty the Sunday after His crucifixion, and there are people who testify they saw Christ after His death. When telling of His resurrection, Christ's disciples began preaching in Jerusalem, where Christ was crucified and buried. This would not be possible if Christ was still in His tomb, as people could have checked [https://www.desiringgod.org...]. From these men's testimony, there are three possibilities. Either they were lying, they were hallucinating, or they actually saw Jesus Christ. The Roman government persecuted the disciples for their claims, and 10 were killed as a result. Why would they subject themselves to this punishment by supporting something they know is false? This means they could not have lied. Did they hallucinate? This is also untrue due to the nature of their interactions. If it were one man who claimed he saw Christ, a hallucination would be a completely valid hypothesis. But there were multiple people who saw Christ at the same time and hallucinations are projected not to individuals, not groups. The disciples also documented that Christ ate and drank with them, as well as touching them. This cannot be done with hallucinations. The only option left is that Christ was resurrected and did appear in front of these men.

* Jesus proved that he is resurrected by appearing to hundreds of people (HA HA TEE HEE) (prove it)
I don't know where you're getting that Christ appeared to hundreds and cannot find any source claiming that.

* Jesus' resurrection proves that Jesus is God (nope)
This argument makes no sense, as it implied that Christ's resurrection could be because of a force other than God. I could respond if you clarify this some more, but as of now it's too vague.

* God needs 10% of everyone's income as a tithe (HA HA TEE HEE)
He doesn't, donations to the Church serve to keep the physical Chruch financially stable.

* God does answer prayers (HA HA TEE HEE) (nope nobody can prove god exists)
God doesn't answers prayers directly as that would too heavily impact free will (for instance, God wouldn't let me win the lottery just because I asked in prayer). God does, however, provide guidance and strength in times of need. This cannot be proven unless you experience it due to th personal nature of the issue.

* God does have personal relationships with people ((HA HA TEE HEE) (nope nothing like that is mentioned in the bible)
Again, this cannot be empirically proven due to its personal nature, here's a source that better describes our relationship with God [https://odb.org...].

* Heaven and Hell are real places (HA HA TEE HEE) (prove it)
This cannot be empirically proven as Heaven and Hell do not exist in nature, no philosophy cannot be proven with science.

I don't have enough characters to answer any more points, but I'd be glad to address any questions or arguments you may have.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"It is a historical fact that Jesus existed." Um no it ain"t my son. And according to what? You? How would you know? What graduating party of sneezits without the cheese did you come from did you graduate from to develop your overtones? Now you go right ahead and google "debunking jesus" and with a magic "wah lah" about 931,000 results POOF suddenly appear before your very eyes. Here's a few...
https://www.youtube.com... - The gospel according to Carrier
https://www.youtube.com... - Bart Ehrman - Bible Debunked in 4mins!
http://godisimaginary.com... - Notice that you ignore jesus
https://www.youtube.com... - Richard Carrier debunking christianity
https://www.youtube.com... - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?

No sorry it is impossible, period, to prove YOUR god"s existence. How do you prove him after all? What tests would you thus make up to demonstrate his and test existence? Could be something entirely different. Um no. What you say is "I don"t know" because you don"t know. And if anybody actually did, they"d be the only sextionaires on the planet. AND YOUR god would be the only one worshiped and idolized. So how come that hasn"t happened? Its because YOUR god is an unproven in ALL departments of superstition. No exceptions. None. and what"s really pathetic is since all there is, is only printed text to prove your god, which by no means is proof of anything, because your god would never use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.
https://www.youtube.com... - Atheist Experience-Bible is not the evidence of god
I neatly ignored your first link because if true, then you"d and or who printed it would be the only sextioniares on the planet and christ would be the only whatever worshiped. Oh and btw, christ is a false messiah which was proved in the above vidies because there"s 0% of a chance that you follow him.

"What we can" " Whoa there soft mitten, nope, its you. Its all you on your wee little lonesome. DO NOT include those that are intelligent, have an education, can think, rationalize, reason, use common sense, use logic because you certainly can"t, nor can your unproved god, religion and bible. Now let"s continue "do is determine which is more likely, the existence of God or His non-existence." Non existence because there"s nothing that is tangible. AND your god is solely based on hate and evil. AND your god has a superior ego complex that would NOT play hide-n-go seek throughout the thousands of years he"s been ring-toning it throughout the history of the human race so man has to rely on pitiful pathetic faith in which in no way would this god of the bible ---ever--- allow that. No. He"d present himself to get rid of everything else. Gays, women, children, ZAP because he HATES them. But he"d keep slavery, raped women, his genocides, etc etc etc because he LOVES them. Now that"s evidence. Faith is nothingness and doesn"t keep people in line and doesn"t demonstrate 1. Power which leads to 2. Fear and then that leads to 3. Control. There"s no way YOUR god would ---ever--- be able to pass that up because of his superfluous and monstrous inflamed ego.

"I would argue that God's existence is more likely, given the fact that we exist." In which you would be required to prove. "The universe hasn't always existed," really? According to what? You? How would you know? Prove it. "modern science now recognizes that," Oh no it most certainly does not. Modern science has not put its stamp AT ALL as far as anything about the "known universe"s existence. "there was one point where the universe suddenly came into existence." Again NOT KNOWN. Its thought to be known. But not a definite by any means. Scientists unlike you christians who do not think of themselves to be perfect, can ALWAYS say "I don"t know" which is what any good scientist, or anybody will say when they don"t have the answer(s). But to you christians those three words "I don"t know" are true words of absolute terror.

"Given that the universe does currently exist, something must have caused that." Not at all. Stephen Hawking perhaps the smartest person who has ever existed has a mathematical equation that states that something does come from nothing. In other words your god was not needed to have created the known universe. Also 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which language you speak. Your god can be disproved no matter which language you speak.
And no, not all atheists accept the big bang theory. Sheesh. Get a jet and learn to fly on top of a peeled fly.
Well then um duh you have a problem, if YOU agree with the so-called "big bang", where did YOUR god come from? And don"t hand me the crap that he always was and is because again you cannot even prove his existence.

* No its pretty simple" all--the--other--gods--humans--have--come--up--with--are--imaginary. Take one word at a time.
To start with, let's address the verifiability of the Bible." There"s nothing to verify. Events of the bible are obviously not true such as creation, the great flood is absolute B.S. there"s a good 1,000 supermassive contradictions and inconsistencies in it making it unreadable, its a book of evil, anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy as your god has freely admitted jealousy? Your god has freely admitted to having anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy. Jealousy? What from a supreme deity? Jealousy is nothing more than anger as disguised fear. Even worse is this supposed god of yours passed down those emotions so man could in turn learn to hate with all the baggage that comes along with it that these emotions clearly are that this god drags around with him. Hey god, dump those emotions and how"s about thinking about peace, kindness, love, caring for each other, harmony etc? Nah. So don"t talk to me or anyone that YOUR god is "good" when he is most certainly not anything like it. Not only that since this god of YOURS has these emotions it clearly means that he is imperfect. Now who in their right stale mind would ---ever--- want to bow down to an inferior supreme deity bile god such as the one you picked from your closet because what else could it be?
Strange isn"t it that in comparison that the Inca, many of the native American Indian tribes until your white man greasy sweaty racist pig christian wiped them out, the aborigines, Hindu"s, Gaia Mother Earth, Buddhists etc etc etc they do not practice nor preach nor go to war over their religions, not anywhere close to the evils nor hate that the christians do. Now why is that? And yet according to your god worshiping other gods is considered to be the most evil thing there is, and you should be stoned to death for it. So you follow your lord"s orders and you come on down here and stone me to death. Whatsamatter? You are not going to follow your god"s orders? Why? Why not?

We have scaled that mountain and found no such gods," Oh please! You haven"t found ANY god anywhere. So it stands to reason that your religion is mythology. Yes there is the spiritual aspect. That would go way back to Gaia Mother Earth. Sinning? Nope. Do you really want to get into sinning? I 100% guarantee you that you don"t.
"we need God's forgiveness." totally 100% false. See, that"s an invented excuse of yours and your religion. You need the forgiveness of OTHERS because there"s no way to know if someone has the forgiveness of god now is there especially if he"s The Son of Sam/ David Berkowitz. AND the worst sin there is is not to be a Stalin, Hitler, Hong Xiuquan, Mao, Pol pot, serial killer, pedophile, rapist, torturer" its to go against YOUR god. Pathetic.

Text, the worst form of communication possible. Let"s put it this way from others who know a lot more about your god, religion and bible and so do I"
"If god is all knowing and he knows the future of all events and he wrote a book that can only be interpreted as if it endorses slavery and if its heinous violence against your children against your neighbors" how could a god be that omnipotent and devise a book where we can"t distinguish between the law of Israel and god"s law? I mean their interwoven where we have metaphor and fact and nobody can distinguish the two. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take figuratively. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take literally. Was it actually a tree? I mean come on. How can anyone distinguish this. I mean come on. It doesn"t make any sense. It doesn"t matter how its translated. It doesn"t matter what version. If it was written by an omnipotent being there would be ONE VERSION. And there would be only ONE WAY to interpret it because it would be written well." Aron Ra
Actually it wouldn"t be written at all. What"s wrong with your god comin" down and talking to people? "Hey you know some of that stuff that"s in the book? I"m here to correct it." Matt Dillahunty

"We have to rely on copies of copies of anonymous authors with no originals and the textural testimony to a miracle for example, there"s no amount of reports, anecdotal reports that is sufficient to justify in believing that actually happened as reported. And anything that would qualify as a god would clearly understand this and if it wanted to clearly convey this to people in a way that is believable would not be relying on -TEXT- to do so. And this to me is the nail in the coffin for christianity. The god that christians believe in is amazingly -STUPID-!!! If it actually wants to achieve its goal by spreading its word to humanity by relying on text, by relying on languages that die off, by relying on anecdotal testimony, that"s not a pathway to truth. And anything that would qualify for a god would know this.which shows either god does not exist or doesn"t care enough about the people to understand the nature of evidence to actually present it. Now which of those two possibilities is accurate?" Matt Dillahunty

Am outta space
TylerLamb

Con

Christ existed according to the sources I've provided, which you neglected to read. Here they are again, along with some more, should you want to have an actual debate [https://www.xenos.org...] [https://www.desiringgod.org...] [https://www.bethinking.org...] [https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...]. By the way, if we base the evidence standard on what gets the most Google search results, "debunking Jesus" gets 1,190,000 results while "proof of Jesus" yields 4,350,000 results.

The Gospel According to Carrier
Carrier says the story of Christ is just the story of Moses and Elijah but Mark swapped the main characters, his only evidence is that the stories are similar. Carrier seems to believe that, because the story of Christ because the story of Christ has similarities to other stories, it must be false. He offers no explanation as to how similarities equate falsehood. Carrier appears to have fallen into the pattern of circular question begging that many have fallen prey to.
1) Miracles cannot happen (2) we know this because there is no evidence of miracles (3) therefore the evidence you presented cannot be a miracle
Carrier disregards evidence for miracles on the basis that he has not seen any previous evidence of miracles, this line of thinking does not benefit anyone and only serves to confirm his own biases.

Bart Ehrman
Bart's argument focused on the discrepancies between the gospels, so that is what I will focus on. Here are two sources explaining those differences, and I hope you actually read them this time [https://bible.org...] [http://www.religioustolerance.org...].

Notice that you ignore Jesus
This is a simple misinterpretation on the part of the author, but an understandable one. Christ says it is hard for a wealthy man to enter heaven because the wealthy man is consumed by greed and worships money as an idol. It is important to understand that giving away our possessions is a call for us to be more charitable, less greedy, and to share. For instance, Acts 2:44-45 and 4:32, 34-35 tell of a group of Christians who are not greedy and share their goods with one another. None of them own the possessions as they are communal. To claim that this calls for everyone to have nothing is ridiculous, as selling your good will be giving someone else possession of them.

Richard Carrier Debunking Christianity
I am not going to watch an hour-long video if you refuse to even open my sources, there has to be some give and take here.

Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus?
Love your enemies
The is not a theocracy so I don't know why he's implying that it shouldn't have a military, but I get the point of what he's saying. Christ's call for us to love our enemy and turn the other cheek is not a call for us to lay down while we are trampled or to let our enemies harm us, rather it is a call for us to not seek revenge. There are many instances in the Bible in which violence is necessary, notably the tale of David and Goliath. There is even a doctrine for Just War, which states that war is permissible and just if the evil caused by the war is less than the evil that would have happened had there not been a war (for example, World War 2 is just as the evils caused by the war are less than the evils caused by the Nazi's Holocaust).
Sell everything
I've already addressed this in a previous argument.
You must abandon your family
This is another misunderstanding and the author of the video misleading the audience. He sources Luke 12:26-33, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters"yes, even their own life"such a person cannot be my disciple... In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples." He has conveniently left out the verses that explain this seemingly outrageous statement. The entirety of Luke 14:26-33 is as follows, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters"yes, even their own life"such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won"t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, "This person began to build and wasn"t able to finish.' Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won"t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples." As anyone can see, Christ is just stating that following Him does not come without sacrifice and that one must be prepared to place Him above everything else.
When you sin, you should cut off your hand
He derives this strawman and misrepresentation of the message from Matthew 5:27-30, which states, "You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." This isn't saying that you need to cut off your hand if you sin, rather you need to remove what temps you if you cannot resist temptation.
You should drink poison
He cites Mark 16:17-18 but ignores the previous verses. All together, they read as follows: "Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." Notice how Christ says, "And these signs will accompany those who believe," as opposed to "And these signs will accompany he who believes." This shifts the subject from each individual follower to Christians as a whole, and there are examples of this happening (Acts 5:16, 8:7, 16:16-18, 19:11-12,Acts 2:4, 10:46, 19:6, 1 Corinthians 12:10, 12:28, Acts 9:17, 28:8,Acts 28:3-5).

I can refer you to my argument in favor of God's existence in hopes that you will look at it. If not to be convinced, look to rebut the claims made. If you are not willing to look at the evidence I offer, we cannot have this debate [https://www.prageru.com...]. As for the universe not always existing, you will find that modern science does, in fact, agree that the universe has not always existed. Stephen Hawking, who you call the smartest person to have ever existed, supports the universe has not always existed and I will link one of his lectures as proof [http://www.hawking.org.uk...].

Her is a source testifying to the historical accuracy of the Bible, I can provide more if need be [http://www.icr.org...].

The next chunk of your arguments do not consist of any attempt at conversation and are instead filled with hate and ad hominem. If you want to rephrase in a more debate-appropriate manner I will respond, but not when you engage in mudslinging.

To your statement that text is the worst form of communication, you have still yet to identify a better form of communication that would still fulfill the Lord's purpose. You said He could appear to each person individually and tell them, but that would work against God's intentions. To have God Himself tell you of the Bible would eliminate the need for faith, as you have concrete proof. The Lord wants us to have faith in him. I have already addressed the issue of interpretation; the Bible is infallible, but its interpreters are not. To make all people interpret the Bible the same way would harm our free will, which means those who follow Him would follow because He made them as opposed to following through faith.

As for there not being any actual evidence of miracles, you seemed to have missed my point about the Eucharist miracles, which we have physical evidence of [https://churchpop.com...].

I want to have this debate and I hope you do too, so please stop with the ad hominem and disrespect.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Oh please. I told you I was out of space. So what does that tell you? See, that"s the problem with christians is they cannot read nor comprehend. I also told you the first link was utter trash AND I told you why. But again you can"t read, And I shall give the same conclusion for all of the links you present. Now go back and reread what I stated and then come back and perhaps, though doubtful, you may have a worthy answer.

"debunking Jesus" gets 1,190,000 results while "proof of Jesus" yields 4,350,000 results." Hmmm wow let"s see here so 1 in 3.65546218487 does not believe in your brain salad surgery christ, but strangely 75% of the planet is supposed to? Who does the math?

Moving on...
The Gospel According to Carrier" Um no ALL atheists, and scientists, NO EXCEPTIONS, NONE do not believe in miracles. None. And all, every---single---claimed miracle from the 18th century and beyond has been debunked. Now scratch your head and ask "why"? See here"s what religion is, especially YOU and your infamous god"s" religion explains the unexplained. So when something comes up that is unexplained and requires the supernatural to explain it you can bet your twinkling little eyes there will be a religion to pop up and makes sad miserable attempts to explain it and wah lah, its explained. And POOF dead are those that disagree with its shaman who invented its god(s). Oh gee is that what EXACTLY happened with YOUR god? Why yes it is.
Oh and btw, only you are defending the idiocies of idiot miracles as you cannot prove one god damed thing.
Oh and btw, Carrier knows one-helluva-lot-more-than-you-ever-will-about-your-god/jesus-the bible-religion-and-your bible. And so do I. Especially when you try to invent excuses that miracles in any way, shape or form actually occurred.

"Carrier says the story of Christ is just the story of"" Wow. Um no. Carrier goes into fine detail about a lot of things had you paid any attention to the detail of the vidie in which you clearly didn"t. Not only that but the other tons of vidies he"s done as well as the books he"s written. And YOU want respect? Are you joking when you come up with an excuse like that? "Moses and Elijah but Mark swapped the main characters" Please do try harder.

"Bart's argument focused on the discrepancies between the gospels," Did-you-even-look-them-up-to-find-those-blatant-CONTRADICTIONS? No. you didn"t. Because I have. So there"s 0% chance that what you are presenting has it right. Now you look up what Bart stated. There"s no explaining bold faced contradictions in which YOUR bible is littered with a good thousand of them partly inconsistencies also thus making YOUR bible unreadable.
https://infidels.org... - Bible inconsistencies and contradictions.
https://bible.org...; can"t even pay attention to it. The author is clearly lost among his own words
http://www.religioustolerance.org...; "All of the original copies of the four gospels in the Christian Scriptures have been lost. We must rely upon hand-written copies which are an unknown number of hand-copied replications removed from the originals." Well that article doomed itself and doomed you also because you CAN"T READ. Naturally and with very good reason I stopped reading And you wonder why your god would NEVER use text as a form of communication? There"s one of your answers.

Oh absolutely I or any sane person WILL IGNORE jesus. Especially when this printed figure offers nothing, nothing but a false hope for someone to swim with rubber duckies in battery acid.
"This is a simple misinterpretation on the part of the author"" no you misinterpret. The verses are very clear to sell all of your possessions. Your ideals of interpreting verses only adds fuel to smoke to add to a fire to a supernova. YOUR babbling bible, not only because its a bumbling stumbling mess, and does not have the ability to communicate its message properly TO ANYONE because there"s no actual consensus on anything, contradicts itself hypocritically all-the-time. Wow does it show here.
"Christ says"" How is it that you or anyone knows what christ or god or any character in the bible has stated? Did they have tape recorders? According to the article you provided above it also states "The oldest known surviving part of a gospel dates from about 125 CE." So therefore YOUR bible is FALSE. Try doing this sometime" get a table of 9 or 8 together. Whisper 5 sentences in another person's ear so that no one else can hear it. Something like "Wow its a beautiful day out. I hope it doesn"t rain. I forgot to give the wife a goodbye kiss on the way out. Gee I hope I"m not late for work. My car is in the shop." And then that next person is supposed to whisper what he thinks you whispered into the next person"s ear and so on and so on. By the time it gets back to you the original quote is so garbled up that it is complete nonsense and gibberish at best as compared to what you originally said. So do you ---really--- think YOUR bible has it right in any way AND to make matters worse, and this is very well known, nobody that hung around this mythical jesus could read or write. Not only that take all that, smash it together and POOF do you really think that its wise to change what YOUR god AND according to YOU, what they actually said with verse after translation after copy with NO ORIGINAL to bank on? So how are you to know what you are reading is actual truth in any way when it can"t possibly be? Oh I get it, its the BIBLE"S truth.
Now let"s look up that"s verse shall we?
Matthew 19:21 "21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." That"s the KJV - not so easy to understand.
Matthew 19:21 "21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." NIV a lot easier to understand. And blatantly tells you EXACTLY TO---THE---LETTER what to do IF and only IF you want to be perfect AND follow jesus to heaven. And that deed is for YOU to sell ALL of your possessions and give unto the poor. And that "come follow me" trash is like the leader of a saucy marching band wanting his vinegar to light some candles for a fairy tail. Think people. Think before you follow. But...
2 Chronicles 15: 12-13 "And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

And do you really think that christianity is the "only" sparse of a mess that has thought of that its better to "give to the poor" in which christianity really doesn"t at its core/ think again.

Oh but wait" to debunk you completely as you tried to ignore the other verses the vidie had on wealth which couldn"t be any clearer"
Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 18:22 "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."
So why haven"t you gotten rid of your computer (you have to have that), TV, car, furniture, bed, etc you can be with your invisible untested jesus? So DO NOT tell me or anyone in any way that you are a christian, when you are flat out NOT because in no way do you follow him.

"Richard Carrier Debunking Christianity"
Yeah you saw it with 0 outs.

Then more guesswork, and total fabricated guesswork on your part. "Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus?"
Love your enemies
"Christ's call for us to love our enemy... rather it is a call for us to not seek revenge." Oh really? According to what? You? How would you know? What grade of furry tongue refrigerated bootsauce shoes ehhhhtttt bzzztttt did you graduate from to get such an obliterated consensus that practically nobody would dream of agreeing with you? Nice guess. Um no. I am NOT, and neither should ANYONE ELSE let their guard down for an enemy from their past. Not ever. And hey I"m not going to let 2 of my ex"s in my life again. NOT EVER. Both burned me so fricken bad. So YOU misinterpret and clearly do not know what you are talking about. You do not EVER allow enemies through the front gate no matter who they are and YOUR god is an ENEMY.

According to YOUR bible AND jesus the video is NOT misleading AT ALL. Its either YOUR bible is as usual a monstrous worthless nothingness BIG misprint a couple of times - so that can"t possibly be it, or its a usual misinterpretation on your part and you have as usual no ability to interpret and NOBODY of merit and only precious few christians will agree with you here (I mean exactly where do you get your interpretations from? The worn out Sears Catalog?)
Why don"t we use some KJV for a few verses"
Matthew 10: 35-37 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Luke 12 51-53 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Your jesus HATES families, especially their bonds. No sane person will EVER fall for this spoiled brat.

Am outta space.
TylerLamb

Con

In this debate, you have decided to blatantly ignore my evidence and then insult me for rebutting what you provided. You have made no attempt at an actual argument, choosing instead to link and quote articles without making any of your own arguments and then berate me when I don't agree with everything you say. You quote a fraction of one of my sentences and criticize that with insults without ever addressing my contentions as a whole. If I'm so obviously wrong and uninformed, use your "superior intellect" to prove it. Your attempts at rebuttal have only consisted of you using ad hominem with no trace of actually wanting to debate. You have not given one argument that has consisted of anything other than hate-filled rhetoric. Why start a debate if you don't want a debate? Do you only insult me and other Christians because that is how you handle opposition? I cannot debate you if this is how you act, and at this point, I don't think it's possible for you to make it through one round using genuine arguments and avoiding ad hominem. I challenge you to prove me wrong because I want to have this debate, but that can't happen if you continue your immature behavior.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

I most certainly have not ignored "your" evidence. I have read it. There"s nothing in it that can be taken seriously by anyone of merit who can think, reason, rationalize, reason, use common sense, use logic because YOUR god, religion, and bible does not require an ounce of it. YOU have not provided me with ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that is TANGIBLE whereas I have. Even worse is that YOU fully expect me AND EVERYBODY that YOU try to PREACH to, to be as gullible and as easily converted as you once were with absolutely no repercussions. AND you fully expect EVERYBODY to follow YOU on a whim. Well I nor anybody from around the world is NOT that stupid unless they are as lonely and seeking attention such as YOU. AND should anybody NOT follow in YOUR footsteps, then they are automatically WRONG. That"s why YOU are WRONG. Because in a debate YOU are supposed to provide some actual EVIDENCE THAT IS BELIEVABLE. Miracles ARE NOT believable!!!! Your bible is NOT believable!!! Your jesus in which you cannot prove exists is NOT believable!!! Your god in which you cannot prove exists is NOT believable!!! Anything taken from YOUR bible especially with YOUR clear misinterpretations are NOT believable!!!
You think you are smarter, have a more keen observation on the world, know more - a lot more, are more intelligent and far far far more edumacated than the authors of the vidies that you supposedly witnetnessed and POOF wah lah, your thinking and law goes into effect and therefore your clear MISINTERPRETATION is exactly how things are and should be when you clearly know nothing about anything AND pretty close to 0% of the population would agree with you, so naturally BANG that"s how things are!!! My my my! But you"ve done 0% research on anything to draw up any kind of a conclusion that makes sense and that why YOUR MISINTERPRETATIONS stand. And with a very big "duh" where do you get YOUR interpretations from? The Cat in the Brat?
"You have made no attempt at an actual argument," Really? According to what? You? How would you know? Scarcely driving on his welcome matt to bring home the bacon" sheesh" I have provided YOU with solid links in which you cannot tear down. But alas I"ve torn down the ones you"ve brought up.
I"ve told you get a table of 9 or 8"
I"ve presented you with verses from YOUR bible. Oh but wait, you just cannot possibly defend them with any justification possible, you know it, and instead you come back with truly ridiculous versions of your own that pretty close to 0% of the population would ---ever--- buy. I mean you cannot even take your supposed messiah, in which he is not because he broke some of YOUR god"s laws thus proving he is NOT the messiah, at his word.

"You quote a fraction"" No I quote the whole thing if its worth quoting, or not. But nearly 100% of the time I will only quote a fraction of the simply because you should know what you"ve quited ad all I"m doing is saving space by quoting the fraction. Nothing more. But alas, sadly, you are, and laughably, the ONLY person that hasn"t gotten it. Search through my debates and posts like a little rugrat if thouest doeset notest believest meest.

Well sorry I do not believe I used the terminology of "superior intellect". Show me where I did.
Regardless, when people like you come on in here and present no evidence (miracles are NOT evidence), that cannot be proved, and they come up with fabrications and excuses and they thus believe that what they have to say has validity of any kind without doing any research on it and thus pretend to have knowledge upon it when they really don"t, I"m sorry... Its insult time. And that"s something you will learn in college should you take a communications class. Now should you try doing that to your friends and loved ones, it will soon = no friends and loved ones. If you try that to your teachers = instant F. So there"s 0 way I"m gonna deal with it. Or I may just walk away which is another opportunity. Either way, that crap will not be dealt with.

"hate-filled rhetoric." YOUR god is hate and evil and absolutely NOTHING but. YOUR jesus is pretty damn close. I believe in peace, harmony, love, kindness, care for each other. What EXACTLY do you believe in?

Oh I do want a debate. But here"s the difference that YOU don"t get" I want a debate with intelligent, educated people who can bring in some actual evidence and NOT B.S. it all the way through it in order to gain some grounding points which never works for me.
Opposition is NOT misinterpretation as clearly as the pop-n-fresh doughboy being poked too much so he"s now dead.

Sure, call me immature. At least I know what I"m talking about. You don"t. You guess. That"s what all christians do because they cannot prove that their god even exists. Shame shame.
TylerLamb

Con

There you go again, proving that you are incapable of having a rational argument and must instead fill the gaps of logic with insults.
"I neatly ignored your first link because if true, then you'd and or who printed it would be the only sextioniares on the planet and christ would be the only whatever worshiped." " I also told you the first link was utter trash AND I told you why. But again you can't read, And I shall give the same conclusion for all of the links you present." How is this anything other than ignoring my evidence? You explicitly stated that you ignored my first link and that you would ignore all the others I provided. I don't think you even fully understand theology, as you are asking me to provide tangible evidence of God. If empirical evidence is required for everything, how can you empirically prove that humans have rights? How can you empirically prove that any set of morals should be respected? How can you empirically prove that killing a human is wrong? You can't, philosophy and theology do not fully sit in the physical world. If I asked you to show me evidence that right is right and wrong is wrong, what physical proof could you provide? There are certain things that are not empirically provable, and it seems that's what you don't understand. I also noticed you have ignored the physical evidence I have given you, those being the Eucharist Miracles [https://churchpop.com...]. I invite you to disprove these, as no one else has. I also advise you look into The Shroud of Turin, which testifies to the existence of God and has not yet been disproven. I advise you use your superior reasoning skills to disprove all of these and make your place in history as "the man who disproved God." I have presented examples of physical evidence, but like everything else you decided to overlook those and resort to insulting me.
You've accused me of not addressing your sources and of not being able to justify the Bible verses presented to me, but I have. You can go reread them if you'd like, it's fully possible you just ignore everything I write along with my links. You, on the other hand, have responded to my justifications and rebuttals by asking, "What grade of furry tongue refrigerated bootsauce shoes ehhhhtttt bzzztttt did you graduate from to get such an obliterated consensus that practically nobody would dream of agreeing with you?" Before telling me I'm wrong without ever attempting to explain how or why. It seems I'm not the one who has trouble with rebuttals.
Once again, you prove my point by quoting a fraction of a sentence that doesn't pertain to the actual argument and act as is berating whatever phrase you've picked out somehow defeats my entire argument.
I never claimed you said, "superior intellect", please show me where I did.
I have presented evidence, you just disregard whatever I say as fabricated excuses. Maybe you would see the evidence if you actually opened the links, but that's just a suggestion. If you truly do want to have a debate and aren't just looking to berate anyone who has a different opinion than you, I ask that you act respectfully for the last round of this debate. I have been respectful to you and your arguments, all I ask is that you do the same.
Debate Round No. 4
backwardseden

Pro

Oh please. I already told you when you invent excuses and or flat out lie for something in which you know nothing about and yet you pretend you have a knowledge upon then you absolutely deserve to be insulted, degraded and dehumanized. And if you pull that type of B.S. to your friends and loved ones (yeah right, like you have any), then they will go POOF and BANG you will soon have no friends or loved ones as so so sooooooooo many christians have done here on debate.org and its so obvious. And if you pull that crap with your teachers = instant F. Try them both idiot if you like and see where they get you.Oh and oh yeah AS STATED that"s taught in college. Oh but you did try one of them right here. Do you really think I"m THAT stupid?

Here"s you. You ARE Jesse from Kearney, NE. This took place on last weeks Atheist Experience. It wasn"t "wow it happened just when I thought santa couldn"t bring me any more presents." https://www.youtube.com... the call starts at 47:45 or you can jump to 55:00.

Now I obviously did not ignore the links that you provided and decided to look at them, as stated in previous rounds, but nah you can"t read just like the typical christian, regardless all of them are flawed, as stated.

Oh but I do understand theology. Take one lucky guess at how I became an atheist? You"ll never guess.

Sane people ask for tangible evidence for god. And your god would be intelligent enough to provide it. Nah. He plays this hide-n-go-seek manure dung pile of crap "faith" ideals which ALL RELIGIONS DO and faith is NOT evidence. Faith is NOT truth of any kind.

"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, judaism, any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, the most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence?" Matt Dillahunty

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence." Matt Dillahunty

"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong." Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins

"Sure and captain Kirk asked god why he needed a spaceship. You can"t go to the bible and say what the bible says. Because then the next question is "why do you believe the bible to be true?" If your source of truth is the bible you"ve already lost." Matt Dillahunty

Then you mention "empirical evidence is required for everything,"... You are so indoctrinated, brainwashed and programed in believing in your god, WITHOUT evidence that you cannot think of any other way that your bible is the only book that you"ve ever read, clearly, that makes sense to you that within its own warped sense of morality that you are so blindsided you cannot see any other way. And the funny thing is, is everybody, no exceptions, none, is born an atheist. So who exactly indoctrinated, brainwashed and programed you into believing in your god AND why do you believe? See that"s another problem with, and get this, so-called christians is they have no legitimate answer that anybody else would not give for breathing.
But to answer your question(s) here they are because they are better speakers than I am by far and they can squash a lot more in a few minutes, by far, than I can in 10,000 characters,,, https://www.youtube.com... - The Atheist Experience Objective Morality and Values. And to say that I can"t is silly and a load of B.S. But then again, you believe in YOUR god. And you are infested with HIS printed immorality. Killing is wrong, but not according to YOUR god even though he made a laughable declaration of "thou shalt not kill" which is hypocritical and contradictory. Slavery is wrong, but not according to YOUR god. Rape is wrong, but not according to YOUR god. Genocide is wrong, but not according to YOUR god. Being gay is perfectly fine, but not according to YOUR god. Working on the sabbath is perfectly fine, but not according to YOUR god. Cursing at your parents is perfectly fine, but not according to YOUR god. Not worshiping YOUR god is perfectly fine, but not according to YOUR god. Committing adultery is perfectly fine, but not according to YOUR god. Blaspheme is perfectly fine, but not according to YOUR god etc etc etc. So do NOT talk to me about what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong when you don"t have the faintest clue and clearly the god you believe in doesn"t either.

"I also noticed you have ignored the physical evidence I have given you, those being the Eucharist Miracles [https://churchpop.com......]." If that was to be proven true, your god would be the only god worshiped. Period. Not one prophecy has been fulfilled. Not one miracle has been proven from your ridiculous bible. Did it ever dawn on you that they got it" drum roll please""""".. WRONG? Wow what a concept. YOU and only YOU throughout my debates here on debate.org are the only one who has brought up miracles more than once in a debate. Once again, miracles are worthless trash and hearsay at best. Oh gosh golly gee let"s take it from experts who does know a lot better than you AND A LOT BETTER THAN A MISERABLE UNTESTED WEBPAGE!!!! Now let me ask you this one question, since you think you are so smart, let"s put YOUR ideals on trial. You get your lawyers and then you see how far it will go. The fact of the matter is, is that no creationist, not one of merit, will EVER put YOUR god on trial again because all that creationists has to go on is faith and faith cannot be proved. You"d be laughed out of the courtroom before your case was ever to get to trial!!! People in today"s society use thinking, reasoning, rationalizing, common sense, logic which your god once again has none.
The first video is also EXACTLY you, brainwashed, indoctrinated, programmed WITHOUT EVIDENCE
https://www.youtube.com... - Answered Prayer and God is Love
https://www.youtube.com... - De-Converted from Islam & Why Miracles Have Become Vague | N.O. - Ohio |

"I invite you to disprove these, as no one else has." I just did.

The Shroud of Turin is not proof considering the fact that the church will not let scientists truly examine it.

"I advise you use your superior reasoning skills to disprove all of these and make your place in history as "the man who disproved God." How can you prove something that has never been proved? How do you define god? What is god? What-god-is? It is always up to you, no exceptions, none, to prove your god because we as atheists don"t believe in a god. So why should we go out of our way to prove that your god exists? How can your god be tested? How can your god be demonstrated? And the most important question is, why would anyone "want" to believe in this hate and evil that is YOUR god that is the printed bible?

You have not presented examples of god"s physical evidence. No one has. Not at any time throughout history.

And no you haven"t, at all, and you know it, addressed the verses I"ve laid down for you because you don"t get that you can"t. They are simply purely evil, bent on hate, barbaric and they prove that YOUR god is NOT worthy in any way of worship. Oh and btw, to add insult to injury, its not me, but multiple authors and sources that I get my information from,. Its not just one place. And the thing that you simply don"t get is YOUR bible, god and religion are its own---worst---enemy. Here"s the thing, and as stated, YOUR god could have created an era of peace, harmony, love, care for each other, kindness etc. Nah. He chose hate, evil, anger, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy etc all in which he admitted to having a part of except for hate. But there"s plenty of hate within him with all of his genocides and hating of children, gays and women. And then he forced fed that unto man. So that"s what you believe, like it or not and too bad if you don"t.

See the thing is also is like EVERY christian I ask this when they try to come up with clear misinterpretations as you have is I ALWAYS ask them "Where and how do you come up with your interpretations?" And guess what? Naturally all---the---time---with---no---exceptions---none they dodge that question like a speeding bullet splatting at their faces like a giant spitwad. Of course they, like you come up with their own invalid interpretations that no one of merit would ---EVER--- agree with on the planet. And precious few christians would even dream up. And the thing about it is, you know it. Sure. Lie and or invent excuses about it all you want.

Summary
I must feel for my opponent because he is obviously locked within this teeny tiny little box and in no way has allowed himself to breathe. He constantly invents excuses for every little knick knack when he flatly knows that he has none. I fear the key for his box to set himself free may forever be trapped within his own stubbornness and lack-there-of self worth so he seeks it within a bible that he misinterprets, religion and god that cannot be proved.

Conclusion
My opponent has not presented any authoritative and or believable evidence to support his case. Would he dare get some lawyers and a team of experts together and actually have the gall to go to court? Of course not otherwise others certainly would have and won. I"ve presented valid legitimate arguments to prove that there are far far far too many excuses for others to explain their beliefs, from life, from god, and from the bible.

The belief in god is an excuse!
TylerLamb

Con

All the time you put into trying to convince me that you actually did look at my evidence and you have yet to explain how "I neatly ignored your first link because if true, then you'd and or who printed it would be the only sextioniares on the planet and christ would be the only whatever worshiped." and " I also told you the first link was utter trash AND I told you why. But again you can't read, And I shall give the same conclusion for all of the links you present." can be interpreted as looking at my evidence.

Skipping past the rest of the prevalent ad hominem of you telling me I'm going to fail school and alienate my family, I don't understand how the video you linked pertains to this debate. This doesn't answer any of the questions I've asked you. I never stated that the question of "why are we here" was the most important question in the world, I acknowledged that the question was there and asked you to answer it. I never asked you who created the universe, I asked how the universe was created if not by God. We never discussed Galatians, Mormons, or Muslims. I cannot see how this relates to our debate, so I can only assume that you linked this so you could call me Jesse. By the way, I'm not Jesse from Kearny, NE. I'm Tyler from Cape Girardeau, MO.

You've been saying all my arguments are flawed, but you've only said I'm wrong and then insulted me in the place of any actual counterarguments.

God has provided evidence, you've just ignored it. I asked how the universe can exist without a creator, instead of giving an answer you chose to insult my source and drop the topic. God came to Earth in the form of Christ, died on a cross, and was resurrected. You have conveniently ignored my argument testifying to the accuracy of these events. You even disagreed with Stephen Hawking, a man you called the smartest person ever, about the age of the universe to avoid God's truth. There is evidence, I have presented it to you, but you chose to ignore it in favor of insults and hate.

It doesn't seem like you understand theology, as you chose to attack the concept of faith instead of answering my questions or morality. People may be born atheists, but we are also born not knowing that the Earth is round, without the concept of human rights, not knowing any mathematical equations, and the urge to put silverware in electrical outlets. Are you sure the knowledge of an infant is the best way to determine what we should believe?

I find it funny how the video you linked acknowledged that morality is not determined by the laws of physics, which is what I was saying. I wasn't asking what the atheist view of morality was, I was asking what physical evidence you could provide for morality. In sharing this video as a rebuttal, you have agreed that morality cannot be physically proven.

You then proceed to attack my source rather than the information it gave you, which is a step up from completely ignoring it so I applaud your improvement. You then fall into a logical fallacy where you assume that, if Christianity is true, it would be the only religion. I assume you have some not-mainstream political opinions, so using your logic those opinions are wrong. If what you believe is the best it would be believed by everyone, so your political views must be wrong. If you disagree with that, your conclusion about the Eucharist must also be flawed. If you stand by your original statement, all of your views and ideas that differ from the norm are incorrect. You have not disproven the Eucharist miracles because your entire argument was a fallacy, so there's the physical evidence you wanted. It still remains disproven.

I don't know where you're getting your information on the Shroud of Turin and I cannot find one source that says scientists aren't allowed to examine it, if you could show that source to me I would greatly appreciate it.
I have addressed the verses you've put forward, you can scroll up and reread them if you missed them your first time around. What you did in response to my justification of those verses is insult me and say I'm making up excuses, and I think that speaks for itself.
I didn't answer your question about interpretation because I assumed they were merely insults, with you following them up with " a worn out Sears catalog" and "The Cat in the Brat". There was no way for me to tell a genuine question from the sea of hate you were flooding me with. I get my interpretations from the Catholic Church.

I appreciate you trying to say you feel bad for me at the end, but I find it hard to believe after the pellets of hate I have been bombarded with since I accepted this debate. Nevertheless, I appreciate the sentiment. I trust the voters can read for themselves to determine who has better addressed the other's point and best defended their own, and I thank you for starting this debate, as I hope I have changed someone's mind even if it isn't yours.

Regardless of how much you hate me and all other Christians, I hope you have a Merry Christmas with your friends and family. God bless.
Debate Round No. 5
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by dsjpk5 2 weeks ago
dsjpk5
Really??? Hilarious!!!
Posted by whiteflame 3 weeks ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: dsjpk5// Mod action: NOT Removed<

1 points to Con (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: Pro called Con "idiot" in round five. This is poor conduct.

[*Reason for non-removal*] The voter is allowed to award conduct-only wins based on insults if they so choose.
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Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
@ylerLamb - You are ever so welcome my fine freathered frend. Just so you know... the words of "god bless" in some countries around the world would require your head. As far as Happy X-mas, oh sorry a deliberate miss-steak on my part I meant to say Merry X-mas, a day I truly hate every year. But it wasn't so bad this year even though I was in excruciating pain while watching The Last Jedi again and my friend watched All the Money in the World. I didn't know Ridley Scott directed it, otherwise I would have seen it. But J.Paul Getty was such a bastard that I didn't want to. Then we went out to some Thai, my fav. But the food wasn't very good this time around. Oh well. gtg please always tc and have fun.
Posted by TylerLamb 3 weeks ago
TylerLamb
Thanks @backwardseden, Merry Christmas and God bless!
Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
Yep. That's right. YOUR pathetic savior DEMANDS that you give up your entire family for him. Are you going to be THAT stupid and ignorant for something in which you cannot even prove exists? Oh it gets worse...

Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 18:22 "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

threats work...
Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

Matthew 19:21 "21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Matthew 13: 22 "22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

Yep you have to give up ALL of your possessions in order to become one of jesus's disciples. No exceptions. Those are YOUR prophet's rules and extremely well defined laws and rules. Nah you cannot even pay attention to what he says. So what are you doing with a computer? What are you doing with a car, a house, a video game, a toilet seat, a TV, a stereo, lamp? etc etc etc.

Indeed there's ab-so-lu-te-ly no such a thing as being a genuine christian. None. And don't you dare even bother making the sad sack talking snake attempt in trying to weasel your way out of it. Merry X-e-Ma
Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
And let"s get into it even further because considering the absolute fact that YOUR jesus broke a few of YOUR god"s laws such as working on the sabbath which requires the death penalty, yet YOUR smoochie jesus somehow was NOT given the noose. He flatly broke YOUR god's laws in which he was NOT given permission to do. So indeed YOUR jesus right there was a false prophet provided that there"s no proof he ever existed as YOUR bible doesn"t teach anything because it gives people false hope as the below verses will certainly show....

Yeah its truly impossible for YOU to be a christian. Have you actually read any of jesus's supposed laws? Nope. Clearly not. Even YOU are not THAT stupid.

Matthew 10: 35-37 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Luke 12 51-53 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
The saying is plain as day: a good tree would not produce bad fruits, only good fruits. I'm not making this up, that's what Matthew states unequivocally. But how can this be possible? How can even the best and most righteous person never produce bad fruits? They can't, because human nature is such that we will make mistakes, or worse, do something bad deliberately. But Jesus, who is said to be the infallible almighty God of the Bible, says that it IS possible to produce ONLY good fruit. Read the passage again (v. 18) "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" and likewise " a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."

And yet Jesus said that evil must happen, but woe unto him through which it is done. Evil will happen, it's inevitable, so how come Jesus also said that a good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, when we all know that this is not true. All of us have produced good fruit and bad fruit, therefore I can only come to the conclusion that Jesus was not infallible, not God, but a fanatical fundamentalist who thought he was appointed of God to teach the people of Israel. He was wrong, just all all the Christian churches are wrong, especially that church which claims infallibility, which is considered a heresy by the other Christian churches.

Here's something else to ponder (that leaves you out Steve): Jesus promised he would return within one generation, the generation of his immediate followers. He was dead wrong (pun intended) and is therefore a false prophet, condemned by his very own words that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
Now its time for da da da daaaaaa "god came to Earth in the form of Christ," Um nope. Not according to YOUR bible and billions and certainly not too many christians. Oh please produce some verses showing otherwise because here's only a couple and that would mean, as stated, that YOUR bible is filled with supermassive hypocritical contradictions as already proved, thus making YOUR bible unreadable.
John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Mark 1:11 "And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Mark 14:61 "But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

1 John 4:10 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Those are just a few of the verses in YOUR ridiculous big blank black book out of many showing that YOUR jesus, who in which there"s no proof for having ever existing, was NOT in anyway "all mighty God using the Bible" but the "son of god" which is a very big difference.

But let"s get into that even further and this is taken from Atheist Republic"
Matthew 7: 15-20 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
Even YOUR bible doesn"t know what it says which again is why YOUR god would NOT rely on text as a form of communication. In other words, the ONLY source you have for YOUR god and jesus is YOUR bible in which is completely faulty. Here's a few"
MT 27:37 The inscription on the cross read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."
MK 15:26 "The King of the Jews."
LK 23:38 "This is the King of the Jews."
JN 19:19 "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."

MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."
JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK allegedly represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is. ( ha ha tee heenow let me get that one straight? God in him being all knowing and yadda yadda he doesn"t know where ALL of his subjects are? Isn"t he omnipotent? Why ask such a stupid question?)
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 35:1-3 No work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions.
MK 2:27-28 Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath).
RO 14:5, CN 2:14-16 Paul says the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance.

EX 23:7 God prohibits the killing of the innocent.
NU 31:17-18, DT 7:2, JS 6:21-27, 7:19-26, 8:22-25, 10:20, 40, 11:8-15, 20, JG 11:30-39, 21:10-12, 1SA 15:3 God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent women and/or
Posted by backwardseden 3 weeks ago
backwardseden
There could have been millions, billions, sextionions. YOU DON"T KNOW.
Awe gee you mention Stephen Hawking. You do realize he most certainly does NOT believe in YOUR god. I mean you do fully understand that - correct? Yep. Perhaps the best explanation possible is Stephen Hawking, perhaps the smartest person who has ever lived who is certainly smarter than the contents of your non brainy unhopeful bible, he and his colleague has come up with a mathematical equation that proves something is gotten from nothing. In other words YOUR god was not needed to have created the known universe. And mathematical equations are the only known facts that there are. 2 + 2 = 4 no matter which language you speak. YOUR god can be disproved no matter which language you speak. Too bad you don"t like it. Deal with it.
Then you laughably state "god came to Earth in the form of Christ, died on a cross, and was resurrected. You have conveniently ignored my argument testifying to the accuracy of these events." Since you cannot prove god nor christ having ever existed, we"ll leave the mythical superstitious nonsense died on the cross and was resurrected for the bottom feeders to rupture their gills.
Well they are no accurate by any means. Billions would disagree with you. And when you mention the words "my argument", damn right its YOUR argument. But let"s get into that RIGHT NOW because indeed that"s false and in no way does YOUR bible state that. But I hope you find verses where it does. Because then it would mean that once again, and there are a good thousand or so supermassive contradictory hypocritical verses and inconsistencies thus making your bible unreadable. Yeah I"m going to have fun with this and squash you like roach meat and you rightly deserve it for not only being so ridiculously arrogant, but amazingly well tarnished and stupid"

Here"s a few of those blazing contradictions and inconsistencies from YOUR bible.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 weeks ago
dsjpk5
backwardsedenTylerLambTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro called Con "idiot" in round five. This is poor conduct.