The Instigator
ViceRegent
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Cobalt
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

How do atheists rationally know truth from fiction?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/13/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 314 times Debate No: 91235
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

ViceRegent

Con

Atheists love to live under the delusion that they are the guardians of rationality. But how can they hold this title when they cannot even articulate a rational way to know truth from fiction. If they cannot do this, they are literally ignorant and the ignorant cannot guard anything. So, what atheist can give me a rational way atheists know truth from fiction?

Answering this question is the sole purpose for this debate. If you are unable or unwilling to answer this question, do not respond to this debate. Likewise, if you do not believe in reality, believe you make it up or deny it is objective or knowable, or if you do not know how to rationally know truth from fiction, do not respond to this debate. If you are terrified of cross-examination or madly in love with red herrings, do not respond to this debate. If you have responded before, do not respond to this debate. After all, if you had nothing rational to say then, you will having nothing rational to say now.

If all you have is "science", do not respond to this debate, for science relies on the your senses and reason, which begs the question of how you know your senses and reason are valid. Perhaps you can tell me, which is fine, but if the way you validate you senses and reason is with your senses and reason, you lose the debate because that is circular reasoning and circular reasoning is not rational.

if you respond in violation of these rules, you automatically lose the debate.
Cobalt

Pro

I'd like to thank ViceRegent for creating this debate. I'm sure it will be as eye-opening as it is brief, given the low character-limit.

I'll be answering the following question for ViceRegent: "How do atheists rationally know truth from fiction?"

We'll start by defining "rational". Something is "rational" if it is "based on or in accordance with reason or logic". So the question can effectively be reformulated to say, "How do atheists use logic and/or reason to know truth from fiction?" The other words in the question do not need to be defined, as it is well understood what they mean. (They may need defining if the opponent's response demands it.)

[As a brief note, the opponent claims that one should not accept this debate if they rely on their senses and reasoning to describe the world. I assume this was a mistake on his part in not realizing that the term "rationally" directly requires the use of "reason".]

The Answer

First, it is important to note that many things are not knowable. As the opponent states, our senses are fallible and that is our only means of observing the world around us. However, many things become knowable once we make certain assumptions, or axioms about the world.

For one, we assume that logic is a valid form of reasoning. A == A is always true and A != A is always false. We assume that if A implies B and B implies C that A implies C is true. We also make the assumption that our observations of the universe can be mostly believed.

Once this assumptions are made, determining truth from fiction becomes trivial in many cases. If some observation X follows our understanding of logic under repeatable circumstances, that thing is "true", unless otherwise proved false. The inverse of that statement is also the case.

"Science" and "mathematics" are simply an extended form of logic -- reasoning on a larger scale.
Debate Round No. 1
ViceRegent

Con

As anticipated, this atheist fools relies on his senses and reason to know truth but cannot tell us how he validates those senses and reason. If he cannot in the next post, he loses the debate.
Cobalt

Pro

I'd like to thank the opponent for his quick response.

I'd also like to express my disappointment that the opponent has chosen not to be engaged in this discussion. While his passion is apparent, it may be being used in a negative way. Instead of providing a detailed, thought-out response -- he has insulted me and invalidated the voting process by making the claim that if I don't meet his arbitrary standard of success, I've lost.

Fortunately, the voters decide the winner.

Restatement and Clarification

The opponent correctly states that I rely on my senses and reason, but is incorrect in claiming that I cannot validate truth. As I stated, certain "common sense" axioms are assumed to be true ("a rock is a rock", "the sun is not a tree", "If I like red and red is a color, I like a color", etc.). By holding these axioms as self-evident, we can make use of reason (read: rationality) to come to meaningful conclusions about truth and fiction.

No one can ultimately prove with absolute objectivity that anything is true, with the possible exception of the proposition "I exist."

I have answered ViceRegent's question about how rational thinkers (atheist or not) come to conclusions about what is and is not true. It does not matter whether he likes the answer, as his preference that there is not a "correct answer" is independent of whether there actually is one. A rational thinker's standard of truth may be different than ViceRegent's, and that is his right. All people must come to their own conclusions about what qualifies something as "truthful" or "real".

Ultimately, however, ViceRegent's conclusion on truth may not match the rational thinker's conclusion. And it is in this case that debates are useful -- as they increase knowledge for both parties.

I recommend you present a lengthy, meaningful response so that we can both learn through discourse.
Debate Round No. 2
ViceRegent

Con

Strike 2. Last chance to tell me how you validate your senses and reason?
Cobalt

Pro

I am again thankful for the opponent's quick response, but his attitude seems to indicate that this debate isn't going to go anywhere. Instead, we'll turn this into an education tool about what not to do.

1. Fail to hold a position.

We can see that VR proposed a question in his opening statement, but failed to maintain a position on the issue. This is a no-no as it is nigh impossible to debate an issue if one of the contenders is not claiming to hold any position on the issue at hand. VR could have remedied this by claiming that "you cannot rationally know truth from fiction" or "atheists don't think rationally" or any similar definitive position.

2. Insult the opponent or a class of people.

How one behaves in a debate is a voting issue. If you do not treat others with respect, the voters will likely turn against you. Even if you hold a strong position, some voters are less likely to fully listen to a person if they are distracted by the person's behavior. It's not just what you say; it's how you say it.

3. Don't address your opponent's remarks.

We can see that all content I provided was not mentioned by the opponent. This is generally bad in a debate, as the only way to combat your opponent's ideas is by talking about them. Do not expect the voters to make arguments for you, even if you think it's "obvious".

4. Be unwilling to explore an idea you don't agree with/are unfamiliar with.

The opponent's first response to my argument was a negative one that he clearly didn't agree with. But instead of exploring this different belief, he provided a brief statement that ignored what was said. You cannot learn if you are unwilling to explore new areas of thought and consider the perspectives of others.

----

In conclusion, I've answered the opponent's question and the opponent has failed to address this. If this debate even has a win/lose condition, I am clearly the winner.
Debate Round No. 3
ViceRegent

Con

Awesome red herring, but the question of how this fool validates his senses and reason remains unanswered. He has no idea if anything he believes is true, as he himself admitted. It does not say him to say that he knows what he knows with less than 100% certainty, for even if he says he is 50% sure, he cannot say he is 100% sure he is 50% sure, which means he is 0% sure of anything he says he knows. This is why no rational person is an atheist, it leaves them utterly ignorant.
Cobalt

Pro

In this, our final round, the opponent has presented an argument of sorts. Better late than never, I always say. Let's respond to ViceRegent's critique.

As I mentioned, VR's definition of truth is different from a rational thinkers. In my first response I presented the definition of "rational", which refers to the use of "reason and/or logic". I further pointed out that the terms "true" and "fiction" (false) are terms directly rooted in logic. Without logic, "true" would have no real meaning, as it itself refers to a logical state.

Logic itself makes some assumptions about the world, called axioms. While in some sense these are just assumptions, they are made because they are considered to be self-evident. Regardless of whether these assumptions are valid, they are a part of logic, meaning they are a part of a rational thinker's toolkit. Because VR specifically geared this question toward (atheist) rational thinkers, he effectively asked how logic and reasoning can be used to know truth.

Whether logic and reasoning is itself valid is irrelevant, as the opponent asked for how a *rational thinker* comes to conclusions, meaning he asked how someone who uses logic comes to conclusions. It would obviously be unfair to limit your contenders to logic users, then disallow the use of logic.

The axioms logic sets make it possible to know truth. This is detailed in my Round 2 response.

--------------------

I have met VR's challenge, in that I have answered his question from the framework of a rational thinker. Whether he agrees with this framework is neither here nor there. Chaulk it up to the dangers of asking a question as a resolution instead of taking a specific position.

Vote Pro, and thanks for reading.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by zookdook1 6 months ago
zookdook1
Yeah, it's in the URL. That 74? That's the number of debates Vice has posted with the same name as this one.
Posted by Cobalt 6 months ago
Cobalt
...I had no idea. I didn't realize there was even a metric that tracked that.

Well, it was fun while it lasted.
Posted by vi_spex 6 months ago
vi_spex
assuming guessing is more certain then knowing.. just wauw dude
Posted by zookdook1 6 months ago
zookdook1
Cobalt, check the debate repost number. He's reposted this 73 times and he's lost every single time with the exception of when an opponent forfeitted.

Most of us consider Vice a lost cause.
No votes have been placed for this debate.