The Instigator
Jordan_Fletcher
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Reformist
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

How to Stop Women and Men from Joining ISIS

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Post Voting Period
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after 2 votes the winner is...
Reformist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 699 times Debate No: 83256
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (15)
Votes (2)

 

Jordan_Fletcher

Pro

Something that must be immediately clarified is this is not intended to be a debate, rather a discussion. I am pretty sure the overwhelming majority of us would agree that what ISIS does is totally savage and evil. But instead of simply getting upset and disgusted at what ISIS does, why not brainstorm ideas on how to prevent ISIS' numbers from growing? There are many interesting articles on how and why men and women want to join the Islamic State. For example, author Thomas Piketty introduced a new theory that could very well be a driving force and motivation for some people to join extremist groups such as ISIS and Al Qaeda (http://www.businessinsider.com...).

At the end of the debate, I hope not only the person I will be discussing with will gain new insight and acquire new perspectives on this issue, but all commenters and viewers as well. Please people, SHARE YOUR IDEAS on how to educate people (especially young adults) on what ISIS has in store for them upon their arrival in ISIS territory and other preventive measures. If you are up for it, here are a couple articles to get you a little better informed on this issue:

- "Thomas Piketty might have the most controversial theory for what"s behind the rise of ISIS": http://www.businessinsider.com...
- "The story of a radicalisation: 'I was not thinking my thoughts. I was not myself'": http://www.theguardian.com...
- "ISIS cells in America & Europe ready to launch Third World War - terrorism expert": https://www.rt.com...
- "What ISIS Really Wants": http://www.theatlantic.com...
- "Eric Holder announces plan to prevent Americans from joining ISIS": http://www.msnbc.com...
Reformist

Con

Well you said this was discussion so I hope this isn't an argument

But basically we need to restrict their hold of media

Isis basically can create a endless amount of facebook,twitter accounts and can broadcast media

The main reason ISIS recruitment is doing better than alqueda or boko haram recruitment is that its having a massive impact on social media

Next issue: ISIS's appeal

Many Americans and other muslims are being persecuted for actions of extremists groups they don't belong too. By making fun/ disrespecting the relgion of islam is actually doing the oppostite reaction people thinks it does. By making fun of religion your just provoking people to move to an area where that doesn't happen

Christianity isn't made fun of to the extent that Islam is and when it happens its really disrespectful. Islam is about respect especially to Muhammed where in Western societies he is ridiculed and called a murderer

Next problem: War and Drawing War Lines

Pushing away refugees and bombing civilian populated areas in Syria/Iraq actually hurts the fight against ISIS. By doing these things refugees either die or join and bombing civilans EASILY allows ISIS to use the "its us against them" mentality.

Well those are my main issues
Debate Round No. 1
Jordan_Fletcher

Pro

Jordan_Fletcher forfeited this round.
Reformist

Con

Why did you FF?
Debate Round No. 2
Jordan_Fletcher

Pro

Jordan_Fletcher forfeited this round.
Reformist

Con

Guess I win?
Debate Round No. 3
Jordan_Fletcher

Pro

I could not agree more with the majority of what you typed, though there was one thing that I both agreed and disagreed with.


Social Media:


What I agree the most with is ISIS’ use of social media to recruit its militants. Shutting down ISIS’ mainstream social media pages could be beneficial in preventing some people from joining, though governments often analyze various extremists’ websites to gain traction on possible terror attacks, new types of recruitment methods and verbiage, and connections. For the United States, it is the NSA that does this. Social Media Analysis (SMA) is actually not that new of an idea. Matter-a-fact, back in the winter of 2001, Valdis Krebs was one of the first data collects to start what many today call a connection web. A connection web is identical to a food web, but is populated with people who are acquaintances, friends, and family with other people. Which is used today in tracking down head leaders of gang and terrorist groups, and is extremely effective. Though the first ever documented social network analysis—not social media analysis; they are slightly different—was back in 1967 by Stanley Milgram. His experiment’s objective was to understand how people connected with each other. To do so, he asked random people to send a package to an acquaintance that would most likely receive it. Conclusively, he discovered that the majority of people were connected with six acquaintances (which prompted the famous phrase “six degrees of separation”). A bit later in 1973, Mark Granovetter published an article titled “The Strength of Weak Ties,” in which he concluded through a series of tests that for the overwhelming majority of people, their acquaintances were more important (called “strong ties”) than friends or family (“weak ties”). So, just some interesting studies that have led to today’s SMA that has been not only used by governments, but by hacker groups such as Anonymous. SMA is a very promising solution to helping the decline of ISIS recruitments via social media sites, especially in the future when even terror attacks will be predicted and hopefully prevented. Here are two links to where I got this background and more detailed knowledge from: (1) https://www.hsaj.org... and (2) http://www.digitaltonto.com....


Here is the link to the image of the connection web I was referring to: Digital Tonto


ISIS’s Appeal:


It is great that you bring up the issue with people rudely making-fun of Islam and its believers, labeling them all savages or terrorists when that is simply not the case. Just last week I came across the image that had an ISIS supporter cheering and holding a sign that read “Behead those who insult Islam”. What the Muslim has on his sign is a pretty strong statement. On a more political note, an article published just two days ago on Business Insider by Jim Tankersley stated in its title “Thomas Piketty might have the most controversial theory for what’s behind the rise of ISIS” (Business Insider). Piketty’s theory directly address ISIS’s appeal to the masses in the Middle East. In its most basic form, his theory is that “inequality is a major driver of Middle Easter terrorism” (Business Insider). And his definition of inequality ranges from religion to income. The article talks about how there are oil monarchies that control the super majority of the oil, but have extremely low populations, making the countries around it with larger populations poorer in comparison. Tankersley specifically wrote if one is to view the region between Egypt and Iran—including Syria—that “you [will] find several oil monarchies controlling between 60 and 70 percent of [the] wealth, while housing just a bit more than 10 percent of the 300 million people living in that area” (Business Insider). And in those countries that are controlling the wealth, only a select few families bear the wealth, leaving the rest of the population in near or absolute poverty. The fortune of some countries and selfishness of the rich is a strong motivation for people to join forces with ISIS. There are many more motivations, depending on the person, but this is just in relation to Thomas Piketty’s theory. To try and prevent that, something that could be tried would be to force the rich to spread their wealth with those struggling with poverty. Another possible solution would be to increase the education standards and construct various technology manufacturing and distribution plants to insure that the main export out of the Middle East was not just oil.


Here is a link to the image of the ISIS support with the sign: Before its News


War and Drawing War Lines:


I do agree that bombing civilian populated areas is in no way helping those who wish to put an end to the Islamic State. But I both agree and disagree on is when you stated that pushing away refugees is not helping the fight against ISIS. First, I will explain why I agree. Forcing millions of civilians to leave their homes to seek asylum in foreign countries does not help because (as we learned with the most recent attack in Paris) the potential of insurgents slipping through security checkpoints is really high. So united countries that are fighting against ISIS have now essentially given ISIS and other terrorist groups a good excuse and way to blend in with society so they can further spread their propaganda and plot more mass attacks. Speaking on Syria in particularly, nearly 7.6 million people have been forced to flee their homes, about four million of which are seeking asylum in Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, and parts of northern Africa (The Guardian). Now advocating for governments receiving immigrants, they are simply being overworked with limited resources. Toward the end of June, the United Nations announced that it would cost around $5.5 billion to help with handle the Syrian refugees, of which only 25% was paid for (The Guardian). As it can be inferred, organizations like the United Nations World Food Program (WFP) declared that it was running out of money to make food and would have to pull back some of its assets in some countries. Though I also disagree with you a bit since pulling civilians out of the war-torn areas (in this case the Middle East) are extremely beneficial to defeating the opposing force since it (1) reduces the number of people likely to join ISIS, (2) prevents civilians from being killed, and (3) possibly gives some people a chance at a new life in a new world. As of now, nearly all refugees are being more stress factors to nations than contributors to nations’ economies. But with time, refugees will increase the number of labor workers in countries that need them the most, driving that country’s economy on an upward slope. For example, there has been a noticeable wage increase in formal jobs in Turkey ever since the recent influx of Syrian refugees (World Bank). In the end, I guess determining whether driving out millions of locals from their homes is a good depends on the lens that the judge is looking through. Something that I do want to add is that there are more than just the two fates of either dying by allied forces strikes or joining ISIS to fight the attackers. Another choice Syrians have is to hide from both the government and ISIS—though some say there is not much of a difference between the two—and attempt to carry on life in their war-torn homeland.


Conclusion:


The various problems that you listed were very good and made me think a few things in ways that I have not before, which is exactly what I was looking for. Something that I would like to challenge you with though is in your response, to please present solutions instead of restating the problems and possibly site a couple sources. Now if this first “rebuttal” in our discussion was simply your establishing the first building block to your assigning possible solutions to each of the problems you stated in the next round or two, then that is totally fine. Simply put, just please make sure to include solutions to your problems that are—possibly—blended in with information derived from a couple websites (and create a formal or informal works cited at the end of your response).


P.S.: I know one citation in my works cited has “23 March 2016” as a publishing date, but I think the date is more or less a deadline or the time when the speaker, Mathis Wagner, will give his speech on the research paper he made.


P.S.S.: Check the comments for why I could not respond...technical issue, XP.



Works Cited


Jones, Sam. Shaheen, Kareem. “Syrian Refugees: Four Million People Forced to Flee as Crisis Deepens.” The Guardian. Guardian News and Media Limited. 9 July 2015. Web. 1 December 2015. <http://www.theguardian.com...;.


Ressler, Steve. “Social Network Analysis as an Approach to Combat Terrorism: Past, Present, and Future Research.” Homeland Security Affairs. Center for Homeland Defense and Security. July 2006. Web. 30 Nov 2015. <https://www.hsaj.org...;.


Tankersley, Jim. “Thomas Piketty might have the most controversial theory for what’s behind the rise of ISIS.” Business Insider. Business Insider, Inc. 30 Nov. 2015. Web. 30 Nov. 2015. <http://www.businessinsider.com...;.


Wagner, Mathis. “The Impact of Syrian Refugees on the Turkish Labor Market.” The World Bank. The World Bank Group. 23 March 2016. Web. 2 December 2015. <http://www.worldbank.org...;.


Wales, Josey. “ISIS: Explains Proper Way to Behead Infidels (Video).” Before It’s News. Before It’s News, Inc. 15 September 2014. Web. 2 December 2015. <http://beforeitsnews.com...;.

Reformist

Con

Well thanks for finally posting an argument.

Rebuttal (shorter since you agreed with what most i said)

Social Media:

The government can still look at shut down social media accounts. Theres alot they can do they dont really speak about. Of course this will take more effort however shutting them down will efficiently stop ISIS propaganda for the regular joe.

Isis's appeal:

Isis is not Islamic. To say ISIS is Islam doesn't make sense. If i bomb a school and say i do it in the name of Jesus almost everyone in the world will say i don't represent Christianity.

Sure it says to kill people who don't believe in Allah in the Quran. Says SAME thing in the bible. Proves no point at all. Take the good things and ignore the bad things

War and Drawing War Lines:

None of the Paris attackers were Syrian refugees. One of them was suspected but the passport was stolen and it was reported he wouldn't have entered the country with those credentials.

I don't need to rebut this passage that much because it centered around that misconstrued fact of yours

And it doesn't matter how much money it takes to take in refugees.....We created this problem we need to fix it.

Conclusion:

We need to take on refugees and give them a better life. The vetting process is already firm with the 18-24 month process with interrogations by 4 different intelligence agencies. Social Media can be looked at by the Government at any time, even when sites may be closed.

Sources
http://www.cbsnews.com...

http://www.ibtimes.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Jordan_Fletcher

Pro

Sorry, I don't have time to type up a response, :(.
Debate Round No. 5
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jordan_Fletcher 1 year ago
Jordan_Fletcher
Oh, I almost forgot. I was literally at 0 words when I upload my response from my Microsoft Word document, :P. So I was not able to include a citation (though it should have been in there anyways), and that citation is the one with the website Digital Tonto. With no further ado, here is my citation:

Satell, Greg. "How the NSA Uses Social Network Analysis to Map Terrorist Networks." Digital Tonto. Greg Satell, 12 June 2013. Web. 12 Dec. 2015. <http://www.digitaltonto.com...;.
Posted by Jordan_Fletcher 1 year ago
Jordan_Fletcher
Sorry for such the long hold up, Debate.org will not let me post a "rebuttal" (more of a discussion) with images in it for some reason. The reason why I did not take the pictures out immediately is because I had to leave school, meaning I lost connection to the internet. And for the second time, I had not been reading my notifications from Debate.org. I just assumed that when I "forfeited" a round, that I lost the debate; but that is not the case, ^w^. I just got a notification that you posted something, so I responded! Again, sorry. I now know what I can and cannot do on this website--even though I should be able to post images, -_-.
Posted by Jordan_Fletcher 1 year ago
Jordan_Fletcher
OMFG! I can't believe it did not let me post! Wow...
Posted by Jordan_Fletcher 1 year ago
Jordan_Fletcher
WTF! I CAN'T POST MY RESPONSE FOR SOME REASON! Why? It says that Debate.org is having some technical difficulties...but seriously? Now? I only have five hours to post and this has been happening for the last two hours, -.-.
Posted by Jordan_Fletcher 1 year ago
Jordan_Fletcher
sgcg81, you bring up really good points. What I really like about your comment is that you present the root problem of it all. Matter-a-fact, I read an article last week that sounded fairly similar to what you typed (not exactly, but similar). The link to it is under my thesis, but I'll put the link here: http://www.businessinsider.com.... And thank you so much for participating! Your insight is greatly appreciated, ;3.
Posted by sgcg81 1 year ago
sgcg81
nice discussion.
in order to understand how isis is good at recruiting one should look at the fields in which they are able to recruit so well.
the under lying problem is in the arab world itself.
what you have in arab countries is a lot of young people (ages 18 to 25) they average of this age is partly
because there life spans are shorter and there for a large part of the populations in the arab world is
young people.
now to the real culprit. because of the repressive forms of government in the arab world the only people
that do well is the people that own business and are close to ruling junta.
however if you are not one of those which is vast majority of population you have no job and little life
prospects.
now along comes ISIS and they offer these kids a job money and girls and give them authority.
this is very clever and very dangerous.
my point is this ISIS thrives on people that have no job no money no prospects and no girls.
they come along and offer all of these.
if people really want to get to heart of the matter than that problem is the one that must be solved.
anytime that you have young people running around with no money no jobs and no girls you are going
to have real problems. hence you want to deny ISIS recruits solve that problem.
but restricting social media even well intentioned is a dangerous idea and could be used in the future
for other means.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
Pretty sure it is sunni vs. shia, and you will find no shia muslim fighting for isis.
Posted by ColeTrain 1 year ago
ColeTrain
@Jordan - Just go to the "Forums" section at the top and click on the drop-down. Choose either "Politics" or "Society" (or any other) and there will be a "New Topic" button at the top somewhere. :) Then just type your post, add sources, whatever you want. Hit review, then post, and you're done! :)

I'm not saying this doesn't work; it does. I just think (since you don't care about actually debating and win/losing, but just having discussion) this would be more suitable. You can still do it if you want. :)

I'm not worried, it's fine. Whenever you get a chance, you can go ahead and post. :)
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@ Jordan_Fletcher

No, that's not the Quran, that's the KJV Holy Bible 1611, and your welcome.
Posted by Jordan_Fletcher 1 year ago
Jordan_Fletcher
And DATXDUDE, look at the articles I put under my thesis, specifically the interview by RT Media. It is really insightful into some of the motivations behind why women (particularly young women) want to join ISIS. Actually, read is recent article that RT Media posted (https://www.rt.com...). Samra Kesinovic, a seventeen year-old girl from Austria fled her home with a friend of hers, Sabina Selimovic (15), last year to rebel from her parents and join the Islamic State. Upon her arrival, she became a poster child for ISIS female jihadists and was also a jihadi bride. On the November 25 of this year, it was announced that she had been beaten to death by ISIS militants after an attempted escape. So Kesinovic and her friend just wanted to rebel from their parents and start a completely new life. Motivations as simple as that are enough to tip some women (and teens as this proves) off the wrong end. The hard part is that teens are joining ISIS. And not stand-out obviously jihadist teens, but teens that like pop artists and care about fashion. In a couple articles that I read, they shared that some other motivations for women joining ISIS is so they do not get stared at by men with--presumably--sexual intentions. As you probably know, rape is a big problem in the Middle East. So the women want to cover their beauty without being judged for doing so. There was another motivation as well, but I forgot it, XP. I hope that helped!
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Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
U.n
Jordan_FletcherReformistTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by Balacafa 1 year ago
Balacafa
Jordan_FletcherReformistTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff