The Instigator
PrvnMthws
Pro (for)
Losing
62 Points
The Contender
Logical-Master
Con (against)
Winning
85 Points

Hulk Vs Spiderman (Hulk wins)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/11/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 76,579 times Debate No: 7338
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (34)
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PrvnMthws

Pro

First of all I am going to enumerate both character's powers.
The Hulk's power's are:
The Hulk's most well known superhuman power is his potentially limitless physical strength. In a functionally "calm" state, the Hulk is capable of lifting roughly 100 tons. However, the Hulk's strength increases exponentially as adrenaline courses through his body during times of heightened emotional strain, particularly the emotion of anger in potentially harmful and/or life threatening situations. While in this enraged state, the Hulk is capable of lifting far in excess of 100 tons. During the Secret Wars mini-series, for example, he was seen effectively holding up an entire mountain which was dropped on him and a large number of other superhuman heroes by the Molecule Man until the other heroes buried inside could find a way to blast their way out. The mountain was written weighing 150 billion tons.

Due to the tremendous power of the Hulk's highly developed leg muscles, he is capable of leaping about 3 miles in a single bound while he's "calm". However, while enraged, the Hulk has been observed jumping into Earth's upper atmosphere.

Aside from his great strength, the Hulk's body is practically invulnerable to physical injury. The tissues of the Hulk's body can withstand high caliber bullets, artillery cannon shells, falls from great heights, exposure to temperatures in excess of 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, exposure to a vacuum environment for extended periods of time, etc. without sustaining injury. However, it is possible to cause the Hulk physical injury. Once injured, the damaged tissue will completely mend itself with superhuman levels of speed and efficiency. The exact limits of the Hulk's healing powers aren't known and it is theorized that his ability to heal himself increases while he is in an enraged state, just like his strength. The Hulk's highly advanced musculature generates considerably less lactic acids than the muscles of ordinary human beings. This grants the Hulk superhuman stamina in all physical activities. In theory, the Hulk can exert himself at peak capacity for several days before fatigue would impair his performance.
The Hulk is immune to all known Earth-based diseases, including AIDS. He can operate under intense conditions for extended periods of time due to his body not developing fatigue toxins quickly.
In addition to his physical power and healing ability, the Hulk has demonstrated a couple of supernatural abilities. First, the Hulk has the ability to "home in" on the desert base where he was created. This appears to have been caused by a connection with the spirit of the Maestro, his evil future self, which ties into his second mystical ability: The Hulk is able to see and hear ghosts, such as the astral form of Dr. Strange. This ability may be caused by Banner's fear that his father will return to seek revenge for his death.
The Hulk has always shown an ability to resist mind control. This is probably due to the fact that there are multiple personalities residing in the Hulk's mind and a person can not control all of them at once as they offer resistance.

The Hulk's body also has a gland that makes an "oxygenated perfluorocarbon emulsion", which creates pressure in the Hulk's lungs and effectively lets him breathe underwater and move quickly between varying depths without concerns about decompression or nitrogen narcosis. It is not known if the Hulk has always had this ability or if it has developed over time.
(Info Source: http://www.incrediblehulkonline.com...)

Now not all of those abilities and powers may be relevant in a fight but I was being thorough. Now for Spiderman:
Spider-Man heals faster than unaltered humans, It is safe to say that Spider-Man may have a healing factor, and not just fast healing. He can, and has, recovered from broken bones and much bodily damage in a matter of hours. During the recent unmasking of Spider-man in "Civil War," Spidey is ambushed by the Rhino, receiving heavy bodily damage, only to heal before the issue was over, without medical attention. He even mentions to Aunt May that 'he knows he has always been a fast healer, but lately it seems even more so.' Also when Spidey is heavily beaten and drugged, suffering multiple fractures and blood loss by the Jack O' Lantern and Jester in "Civil War," he is almost completely healed in the next issue.
His accelerated metabolism increases his tolerance to drugs (meaning a larger dose is needed to cause the usual effect), and he can recover from the effects rapidly. During an encounter with the bee-based villain Swarm, Spider-Man was incapacitated by thousands of bee stings, but he fully recovered in less than 24 hours. His resistance to other toxins varies, but is typically significantly higher than normal. However, Spider-Man has normal human tolerance to the effects of alcoholic beverages and is rarely shown drinking, since it affects his balance, reflexes and coordination. In one battle with the Hobgoblin, he nearly loses his life after unknowingly consuming spiked punch at a party.
Several accounts depict Spider-Man as able to hold his breath for eight minutes or more. Spider-Man is still vulnerable to disease, and has fallen ill due to flu many times, which affects the reliability of his powers. He has also has a certain susceptibility towards ethyl chloride, which is a commonly used pesticide against insects and arachnids. This chemical was used frequently as a weapon in the Spider-Slayer robots.
Spider-Man is capable of crawling on walls and ceilings. He has conscious control over this ability, and it is simple and instinctive for him to use—he first uses it in Amazing Fantasy #15 before realizing he has the ability. The strength of attraction between himself and the surface he is clinging to is considerable. If Spider-Man does not willingly detach, but is pulled off by force, the surface usually breaks still attached to his body. However, if a surface is too slippery, he has problems sticking to it. He can also use his clinging ability to lift or hold objects.
The ability works through thin layers of cloth, such as the fabric of his costume, but not through materials such as the soles of shoes. When Peter Parker needs to crawl without changing into the costume, he removes his shoes first.
Spider-Man's strength varies widely due to artistic license. After gaining his powers, he could lift 10 tons. His strength may be closer to the 20-25 ton range now.
When in combat, Spider-Man must pull his punches unless fighting someone of similar durability and power. Otherwise, his strength would kill a normal person (Spider-Man vs. Wolverine, 1987).
Spider-Man can leap several stories vertically or the width of a city street (The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1). He can run at superhuman speed for short sprints, fast enough at least to outrun a car, but prefers using his weblines to travel (The Amazing Spider-Man #267).
Spider-Man's reflexes are roughly fifteen times faster than a normal person's, according to the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Spider-Man 2004. In combination with his spider-sense, the speed of his reflexes allows him to dodge almost any attack, or even gunfire.
Using his spider-sense to time his enhanced reflexes, Spider-Man can casually dodge attacks up to and including automatic-weapons fire. Spider-Man's spider-sense is directional and can guide him to or away from hidden weapons and enemies.
(Info Source:http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_powers_and_equipment)

Ok now on to the debate:
Since I have run out of characters I will have to use my next round to make actual arguments but just to clarify I am arguing that in an actual fight with no prep time for additional help or equipment, the Hulk would win.
Logical-Master

Con

First, I'd like to thank my opponent for starting this momentous comic book debate. Being a Spider-Man who would formally read numerous Spider-Man comics (only to drop the title after that travesty titled "One More Day"), I consider myself quite a fan and am delighted to have the opportunity to demonstrate how the big green lummox would stand no chance against the web head in a current battle.

============================================================================
OBSERVATIONS
============================================================================

Observation #1: Note that my opponent has provided no arguments yet. Please do not confuse any of what he has stated with an argument and then accuse me of ignoring a most of my opponent's response. In addition, as he insinuates ,there is a lot of that information does not impact the result of a battle between Spider-Man and the Hulk.

Observation #2. From what I am to understand, the winner of the battle is the one who is last left consciously standing. Hence, I need only argue that Spider-Man renders the Hulk unconscious in order to win the debate.

============================================================================
CONTENTION #1: Spider-Man's superior intellect and experience in fighting the Hulk as well as working alongside would easily give him the victory
============================================================================

When considering who would win this battle, we must consider that not only has Spider-Man battled the hulk in the past (hence has experience in fighting him), but has also worked alongside him as a member of the Avengers for quite some time. Thus, Spider-Man would merely have to do the following to win:

#1. Calm the Hulk down

As my opponent has noted, the Hulk is weakest while calm. However, the calmer he is, the more likely he is to revert back to Bruce Banner (hence make the Hulk unconscious, thus the loser of the battle). If Spider-Man simply reverts the Hulk to Bruce Banner by making him as calm as possible, he can prove to be the victor in a battle against the Hulk. Given that Spider-Man is in fact one of the most intelligent non cosmic characters in the Marvel Universe (even Ant man considered Peter to be far more intelligent that he is) and that he has worked with the Hulk on the Avengers long enough to understand how he thinks, Spider-Man would easily deduce a method which could be used to relax the Hulk enough to revert him to Bruce Banner. This would require that Spider-Man not fight the Hulk (as fighting him would make him angry), however . . . "not fighting" during the battle wouldn't be a problem considering that the Hulk is familiar with Spider-man and has worked alongside him, thus wouldn't see him as a threat unless Spider-Man began to attack him. Once he reverted to Bruce Banner, the Hulk would no longer be conscious and Spider-Man would be the victor automatically. Of course, if my opponent objects to the Hulk persona merely being unconscious as not being enough for victory, I could simply point out that Spider-man could use his super human agility to speed blitz Banner (in other words, knock him out) before he could even realize, hence preventing his Hulk persona from interfering and insuring Spidey a victory.

============================================================================
CONTENTION #2: Spider-Man knows how to kill the Hulk
============================================================================

The following conversation takes place in Amazing Spider-man Vol 2 #54.

SPIDEY: Everybody in our odd little community would deny it, but we all watch each other when we cross paths, looking for weaknesses, in case that day ever comes. In case they ever have to stop me...or I ever have to stop them. But we never talk about it. Ever.
MJ: So in that case... you must've thought about how to beat the Hulk.
S: That's right.
MJ: So does that mean you've figured out how to beat him? Could you really beat the Hulk?
S: Yeah. Yeah, I could. But the only way to do it, to really stop him, would be to kill him.

Ergo, we know Spider-Man knows how to take the Hulk down, we know he has had a great deal of time to further think this out (as this took place many many issues ago) and we know that this wouldn't involve outside help given that he refers to himself as being able to do it. Given that Spider-man has beaten cosmic level entities before (such as how he defeated FireLord ---a herald of Galactus---in Amazing Spider-Man #269), we know that he is perfectly capable of defeating characters who are in the Hulk's league. Thus, it is quite likely that this knowledge would make this insured victory during this battle.

And that'll do it for now. I will likely provide additional arguments in the next round. Also, my above arguments may need elaboration depending on my opponent's rebuttal.

Later. :D
Debate Round No. 1
PrvnMthws

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting this debate and would like to wish him luck.
First of all the statement "In addition, as he insinuates, there is a lot of that information does not impact the result of a battle between Spider-Man and the Hulk." is not true. As I said there may be one or two abilities that may not of much us in a fight. E.g.: Hulk's ability to home in on the site if his ‘birth' Spiderman's inability to resist inebriation, but most of the other powers mentioned can be used in a fight. Now on to the argument:

Contention 1 (Con):
My opponent stated that all Spiderman has to do is to calm the Hulk down thereby rendering him ‘harmless'. Not only is this an incredibly difficult thing to, it's also highly dangerous. Take for example Hulk's fight with the Sentry (Robert Reynolds). In addition to being one of Hulk's closest friends, Reynolds also had the ability to project radiation capable of pacifying the Hulk. Yet even he could not defeat the Hulk, even after he unleashed his full potential and even though he was a being whose power levels equalled that of Superman.
And yes the Hulk is weakest when he is calm, but even at his ‘weakest' he is nearly 10 times stronger than Spiderman at his peak.
"Given that Spider-Man is in fact one of the most intelligent non cosmic characters in the Marvel Universe (even Ant man considered Peter to be far more intelligent that he is) and that he has worked with the Hulk on the Avengers long enough to understand how he thinks, Spider-Man would easily deduce a method which could be used to relax the Hulk enough to revert him to Bruce Banner."
Spiderman may be smarter than most, but please consider the fact that some of the brightest minds in the marvel world have tried to come up with ways to calm the Hulk including Reed Richards, Toni Stark and even Bruce Banner himself, only to come up blank. To think that Peter Parker, clever as he is, could figure out a way to calm the Hulk, while engaged in a fight, with no prior preparations, is near impossible. Another thing about the Hulk is that trusts almost no one, one of the reasons he is always so angry. He believes that the whole world is against him so Spiderman has little chance of proving himself as a friend, especially on such short notice. Spiderman may have worked with the Hulk on several occasions but he has also fought the Hulk on as many occasions.

Contention 2 (Con):
I myself have been involved in discussion which debated that conversation. While it's true that Peter Parker stated he could defeat the Hulk. He never said he could it without any preparations. For all we know all Parker did was to figure out how to create a device that could suck the gamma radiation out of Banner, killing both him and the Hulk. Please note, this was just a notion which occurred to Parker has never even been tested by him.
As for Spiderman beating Firelord, that was PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) in my opinion. Here's why:
a. Firelord can move at light-speed, Spiderman shouldn't't even be able to touch him
b. Spiderman kept raining blows on Firelord and he didn't even retaliate when on the other hand Firelord had single handily beaten the Avengers team in the same issue.
c. Not to mention that anybody who's blown entire meteor swarms into atoms and melted asteroids into slag shouldn't have had much trouble tagging Spider-man a good one. Even if it meant incinerating every air molecule within three blocks.
So to think Spiderman beat Firelord in a fair fight even with his symbiote suit (which he was wearing at the time) is unthinkable.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://i17.photobucket.com...
Also to state that Firelord was above Hulk in terms of strength is not in the least bit true. Here are a few examples of his strength:
a. Hulk is trying to destroy a massive Deviant machine built to defeat the Celestials on their next visit. Narration states:
"He just pulls all the more, straining with every iota of his strength to rip free this infernal object...becoming madder and madder, his strength building with his anger, as he tugs against a device built to withstand the power of gods (celestials) But this is the power of the Hulk and ultimately, there is no force stronger than the Hulk!"
Note: http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)
b. Beyonder searches for the Hulk and finds him in the desert. Hulk attacks the Beyonder. Beyonder puts the Hulk in stasis and begins to probe him. The Beyonder says of the Hulks inner potential:
"You are nothing but power incarnate! An infinity of power with no finite element inside!! Worse yet, you remind me of someone (himself)."
Note: http://en.wikipedia.org...
c. The Hulk shows sufficient strength to break out of the Silver Surfers force barrier. The Silver Surfer (who is/was a herald of Galactus too) has casually created barriers that can allow normal humans to withstand black hole level gravity. Surfer was fully concentrating on containing the Hulk and failed due to the Hulks ever increasing anger/strength.
Note: http://en.wikipedia.org...

Now I would like to put forth some arguments of my own:
Contention 1 (Pro):
True, the Hulk is not the sharpest knife in the block, but he is shown being perfectly capable of rational thought on more occasions than one. One that comes to mind is during the movie Incredible Hulk (remake), when Hulk used a Sonic Clap to put out fire. So anyone who says Spiderman just has to keep hitting the Hulk without ever coming in reach of his fists is forgetting that the Hulk has a couple of long range attacks in his arsenal.
For e.g: The Thunder Clap/Sonic Clap which pops the eardrum and causes the opponent to lose equilibrium, leaving them disoriented. Spider-Man would have to be at least two or three blocks away from ground zero when the Thunder clap is applied to escape its effects. Here is a quote showing the power of the Clap: "Hulk with another supersonic clap is able to produce a shock-wave that "puts to shame the most powerful hurricanes in the history of the planet" (King Size Annual 3)
Or the Smash attack, where Hulk is capable of creating an earthquake by pounding his fists on the ground.

Contention 2 (Pro):
All the Hulk has to do is wait for Spiderman to make a mistake or tire (Spiderman doesn't have anything close to Hulk's near inexhaustible stamina and has been shown to tire easily on more than one occasion), by which time Hulk will be pretty much super-angry and pound him to a paste. The Hulk for all his size is not slow at all and is seen capable of going punch for punch against Thor, a being with superhuman agility and reflexes rivalling Spiderman's. So all Hulk has to do is land one punch and Spiderman is pretty much history. While on the other hand Spiderman's punches are pretty much ineffective on the Hulk who is capable of enduring impact from high calibre guns, even in his calm state. So unless Spiderman has somehow managed to get bitten by a boxful of radioactive spiders during the fight and gain 10 times his current power level, he is pretty much a smear on the ground. Oh did I mention his webbing is pretty much useless on the Hulk?

Hope I made my point, looking forward to round 3. :)
Logical-Master

Con

CROSS EXAMINATION:

Since I've got 5 whole rounds, I'm gonna refrain from jumping the gun (as I had initially intended to do) and clarify on a few things about my opponent's case:

Question #1: Concerning Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, are you saying that they have never been successful in getting savagely provoked Hulk to revert back to Bruce Banner?

Question #2: What is the likely hood that this battle is taking place in New York City?

Question #3: Do you mean to insist that the there have never been ANY single character who was not a friend to the Hulk but managed to sooth him?

Question #4: Your parameters for this match up insisted there be no prep time. Is this to merely be understood as preparation before the fight started?

Question #5: In your opinion, how does Iron Man compare to a calm Hulk?

And believe it or not, that's all the questions I request to be answered before I proceed. Till the next round. :D
Debate Round No. 2
PrvnMthws

Pro

Cross-Examination Response:
Question #1: Concerning Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, are you saying that they have never been successful in getting savagely provoked Hulk to revert back to Bruce Banner?
Yes and no. Reed Richards has been able to calm the Hulk a couple of times, once as a plot device and another time using an anti gamma energy gun. As for Tony Stark, as far as I know, he never was able to calm down the Hulk during a fight. I am not going to elaborate on Banner since they are both are both personalities in a single mind and it would be really hard to explain. But yes Banner was able to calm the Hulk down on several occasions due to obvious reasons.

Question #2: What is the likely hood that this battle is taking place in New York City?
As much likelihood as any other place in the world.

Question #3: Do you mean to insist that the there have never been ANY single character who was not a friend to the Hulk but managed to sooth him?
As far as I know, only a few people have consistently been able to calm the Hulk, namely Rick Jones, Betty Ross & Robert Reynolds. There have been others but those are simply anomalies which were utilized to move the plot forward.

Question #4: Your parameters for this match up insisted there be no prep time. Is this to merely be understood as preparation before the fight started?
Yes. I can't see how prep time would refer to something else. Since anything that happens during the battle cannot be called ‘preparations'.

Question #5: In your opinion, how does Iron Man compare to a calm Hulk?
If you are referring to Iron Man in his normal suit without any additional power-ups, then he is stronger than a calm Hulk. But since you specified ‘calm' Hulk, I am not going to elaborate further. Suffice it to say over the years Iron Man has thrown several of his armours (Hulk-buster & otherwise) at the Hulk, and he's never succeeded with any of them. His one win on the Hulk (temperory knock-out) required his functional suicide (he only lived due to the aid of others), and being given time in the fight to charge up his suit with external energy. Looking at the number of times he has failed, he should start calling the armour ‘Hulk-busted'

Question #6: How would you say She Hulk compares to a calm Hulk? (Refer to comments)
Ok, the one advantage of the She-Hulk is that any strength she gains as Jennifer Walters (her alter-ego) will be reflected when she transforms. So as a result of her intense training, She-Hulk's strength currently surpasses the base strength levels of the Gray, Savage, and Professor incarnations of the Hulk, at least while they're in a calm emotional state. But unlike the Hulk, her strength doesn't fluctuate with surges of adrenaline when she becomes angry. As a result, she is ultimately far less powerful than her cousin. I also would like to add that the current incarnation of the Hulk, sometimes referred to as "Green Scar" is the physically strongest of all the primary Hulk incarnations. After being exposed to energies from the exploding warp core of the ship that originally brought him to Sakaar, his base strength level was dramatically increased. So currently a ‘calm' Hulk is at least as strong as if not stronger than an amped-up She-Hulk.
As a side note Jennifer has eased down on her training regimen a lot in the recent issues.
Logical-Master

Con

===
CONTENTION #1 (rebuttals)
===

1) In response to me pointing out that Spider-Man would simply have to calm the Hulk down in order to secure victory, PRO cites the fact that the Sentry was unable to calm the Hulk down during the World War Hulk story arc (who was one of the Hulk's closest friends), however, what my opponent conveniently leaves out of his rebuttal is the fact that the Hulk was depicted as being angrier than he had ever been during the midst of this arc due to previous events. In other words, we're not taking into consideration a base level Hulk when referring to this event. Essentially, PRO citing any performance by an already pre-anger hence amped up Hulk is just like me citing Spider-Man with prep time or suggesting he has access to his cosmic powers. If PRO wishes to take this debate to that route, I'll gladly explain why a cosmic powered Spider-Man could easily dispatch the Hulk.

Basically though . . . any anger past base level which neither Spider-Man or the Hulk has caused is to be considered outside help (as no outside help and no prep time were the parameters which PRO himself had set at the end of his round 1). Now, if for some reason I end up agreeing that Spider-man would cause the Hulk to get as angry as he had gotten during the World War Hulk arc, my opponent's reasoning shall be valid.

2) My opponent attempts to point out that the Hulk at his weakest is still 10 times stronger than Spider-Man. Ladies and gentlemen, this is merely my opponent insinuating the myth that Spider-Man merely has a strength limit of ten tons. However, based on the scans posted in my evidence thread ( http://www.debate.org... ), Spider-Man is not in the ten ton league. If anything (with him supporting an entire building), one could reasonably claim that a SERIOUS Spider-Man is stronger or equal to a calm downed Hulk in terms of physical prowess.

3) PRO goes on to state that even some of the brightest minds in the Marvel have tried to come up with ways to calm the Hulk down, only to fail . . . however, as revealed during CX, this is false as PRO points out that both Reed Richards and Bruce Banner have succeeded (keep this in mind as we'll come back to it in a little bit).

Not to mention that Spider-Man himself triggered the Hulk to change into Bruce Banner when he had first attempted to join the Avengers (note that getting in required he capture the Hulk. Also, observe this panel: http://img443.imageshack.us... ). This tells us that Spider-Man would have knowledge of how to quickly change the Hulk into Banner during battle without prior preparation.

As for the Hulk trusting no one and that someone such as Spider-Man wouldn't get anywhere through talking to the Hulk, observe the following panel:http://img515.imageshack.us... This took place after a brief tangle between the two characters. The Hulk was quickly willing stop fighting Spider-man as well as to even confide in him.

4) Doesn't matter if Spider-Man has fought on the Hulk on several occasions. Spider-Man has fought mostly every hero on several occasions, yet this still hasn't prevented teamwork. Not to mention that Spider-Man has worked with the Hulk on FAR more occasions than he has actually fought him, due to being an Avenger. As long as Spider-Man does not attempt to fight the Hulk or anger him in any way, we are guaranteed no direct confrontation, hence making a comparison between the two characters' super powers irrelevant.

===
CONTENTION #2 (rebuttals)
===

1) PRO points out that it is possible that the means at which Spider-Man could defeat the Hulk would require preparation. If we are to consider this possibility, it would make no difference in terms of the outcome of this battle. Given that I've already established that Spider-Man could very well refuse to fight the Hulk and allow him to calm down on his own, what would stop Spider-Man from using this time to create the device in question? This doesn't require preparing before the fight. Rather, it simply requires that Spider-Man having time after the match has started to create his device. This can be done through deceiving the Hulk (which is not difficult to do) into believing that the two have no need to fight and perhaps even tell him to wait at a certain location or Spidey could simply plant a spider tracer on the Hulk's back, prepare the device and then come back to use it on the Hulk. Both of these methods involve Spider-Man doing nothing to agitate the Hulk.

As far as this being a notion never tested by Peter Parker, this is merely conjecture on the instigator's part as there is no place in that course of dialogue which goes to suggest that Peter never really gave this matter any real study. In addition, being a man of science, it is most doubtful that he'd make such empty that do not in any way adhere to the scientific method.

2) Next, PRO attempts to counter my claims concerning Firelord by pointing out that Spidey's success was merely PIS. For those who don't know, PIS is often something which is tossed around in comic book versus debates. It is used for the purpose of ignoring evidence which individual fans deem outrageous. That said, although one might adhere to this on a comic book forum, I'm afraid I see no logical reason to do the same here on a debate website. Firstly, we're talking about fictional characters who have super powers and exist in a world where Norse gods and all sorts of magical creatures exist. Secondly, PIS is subjective. Thirdly, the opinion of a mere fan is not to be considered authoritative testimony. Unless the actual authors themselves insist to recant what has happened, my opponents criticisms are to be dismissed without hesitation.

As for his 3 additional points here:

a. Pre-Cognition (spider-sense) enables Spider-Man to anticipate what his foes will do before they've done it. When this is combined with already super human dexterity, such speed advantages are irrelevant. Just think of how Batman dodges bullets. He watches where the gun is being fired from and dodges before the bullet leaves the barrel. It's basically the same thing here, only far more complex.

b. The off guard gas station explosion which Spidey lured Firelord into had already taken its toll on him. As we could see here, Firelord could do nothing more than block. He was too drained of power to do anything else. As for the Avengers not being able to outperform Spidey, this just goes to compliment his abilities. :D

c. Firelord stated that although he could destroy the entire city, he'd fight Spider-Man directly for the purpose of honor. As for this nonsense about Spider-Man wearing his symbiote suit, observe: http://img440.imageshack.us... (the web pack on his back is used to carry clothing . . . which is unnecessary in a symbiote suit). In addition, this issue is #269. Spider-Man loses his symbiote suit in #258.

Finally, since I never stated that Firelord was stronger than the Hulk (notice that I said he was in the Hulk's league), I won't bother attacking this chain of straw arguments which are based around this clam which I did not make.

===
RE PRO's Case
===

1) The thunder clap is dependent on the Hulk's strength lvl. The less angry he is, the less effective (meaning that if Spidey engages him and takes him out quickly, this won't be a problem)

2) PRO claims that the Hulk just has to make Spider-Man tire, but from the evidence I provide, not only is Spider-Man well capable of knocking out the Hulk, but there's also the fact that he could simply avoid agitating the hulk, hence giving the Hulk no reason to get angry (hence stronger).

3) As far matching Spidey's reflexes, I would advise PRO to provide evidence of the Thor rivaling Spidey's legendary agility before we proceed with this assertion of his
Debate Round No. 3
PrvnMthws

Pro

Cross Examination:
Question #1:
How many times have Spidey and Hulk fought and what were the results? (Give as many as you can)

Question #2:
How do you compare Spidey and Hulk in terms of base strength?

Question #3:
How fast do you think Hulk is compared to Spiderman?

Question #4:
How durable would you say Spidey is compared to Hulk? (Base)

Question #5:
What are your thoughts on the regenerative powers of both opponents? (Base)

Question #6:
How intelligent would you say Peter Parker is compared to Reed Richards, Bruce Banner or Tony Stark?
Logical-Master

Con

Cross-Examination Response:

Question #1: I'm not certain as to how many times Spidey and the Hulk fought, but I do know that their battles typically have no conclusion (due to some outside interference variables getting in the way). In addition, Spider-Man is usually battling a pre-angered Hulk. In spite that unfair advantage, he is usually too fast for the Hulk. I will say that I recall one instance where the Hulk had defeated Spider-man with a thunder clap, but he had been angered significantly (which I'm arguing wouldn't be the case here).

Also, let us take note of the following:

http://i114.photobucket.com...
http://i114.photobucket.com...
http://i114.photobucket.com...
http://i114.photobucket.com...
http://i114.photobucket.com...

Now although it's true that Spidey was clearly outmatched here, we must keep in mind that as suggested by the Spidey's line about that being the first or second time he fought the Hulk (Spider-man had battled the Hulk as early as the Green Goblin's first appearance, which isn't even past the first 15 issues). Basically, this was at the beginning of his career. He was nowhere near as strong or experienced as he is now. Let us also keep in mind that Spider-Man has been trained by Captain America several times while part of the Avengers. As long as Spider-Man followed Captain America's lessons and applied some of his own experience, we have plenty of reason to conclude that he could make short work of the Hulk like this as well. Of course, when combined with the showing which can be found in my evidence thread, there is no doubt that this is feasible.

Question #2: How do you compare Spidey and Hulk in terms of base strength?

What is meant by base strength? Unlike the Hulk, there is no variable (anger) which can change Spider-man's strength level. Based on the strength feats I've provided (especially the one where he uses his physical strength to "support" the daily bugle) as well as the dialogue between Spider-Man and Iron-Man in "What if Mary Jane had been shot instead of Aunt May" comic (Spider-Man is suggested as possible being even stronger and faster than Iron-Man when cutting loose), I'd say easily the 100 ton class (likely higher, but this should serve as a liberal estimate). Though given that someone who is merely at the highest possible level of human normal human strength (Captain America) can possible take down the Hulk and given that Spider-Man has taken lessons from this very same person while being a part of the Avengers (as indicated by Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #1), it really wouldn't even matter if Spider-Man weren't cutting loose. The Hulk's lack of fighting skill and intelligence in general will give Spider-man the win.

Question #3:
How fast do you think Hulk is compared to Spiderman?

At his weakest (base state, hardly angry), likely weaker than a Spider-Man who is cutting loose. Though if made angry enough, I'll be the first to say that Spider-Man stands no chance against him (neither would 90% of the MU). Fortunately, Spider-Man is well aware of the hulk's strength/weaknesses, thus wouldn't allow him the opportunity to get angry enough if given the chance.

Question #4: How durable would you say Spidey is compared to Hulk? (Base)

Again, at his weakest, less durable.

Question #5:
What are your thoughts on the regenerative powers of both opponents? (Base)

The Hulk's are better. Spider-Man has never been shown as having any potent regenerative abilities that actively work even mid battle.

Question #6:
How intelligent would you say Peter Parker is compared to Reed Richards, Bruce Banner or Tony Stark?

Hank Pym states that Spider-Man is smarter than him:http://img98.imageshack.us...

I'd say Hank Pym is probably on par with Tony Stark. That said Richards and Banner are certainly above them. I'd say Peter is potentially smarter than Reed Richards and Bruce Banner, but (as Hank Pym points out) doesn't utilize that potential due to crime fighting.

At any rate, I believe I know how my opponent intends to use the answer to that question, so let me just stop him in advance by pointing out that if he attempts to start using any form of Hulk other than normal Hulk, I can just as easily cite Cosmic Spider-Man.
Debate Round No. 4
PrvnMthws

Pro

CONTENTION #1(rebuttals)
1.Con keeps stating that he will bring in cosmic powered Spiderman to compensate for an angry Hulk, but let me point out that the Hulk's strength raising with his anger is part of his power-set whereas Spiderman with his cosmic power is not. He cannot obtain that power at will while the Hulk can easily amp up his strength a few minutes into battle.
2.My opponent is twisting the facts here. It's a verified fact that Spiderman has a strength level of 10 tons (http://marvel.wikia.com...(Earth-616), the scans he provided showed Spiderman in an extremely aggravated situations (he was saving himself from getting crushed and in the latter case, he was agitated about Aunt May's surgery). As con himself stated putting Spiderman into the battlefield with anything more than normal strength is unfair. By the time Spiderman gets infuriated enough to get strong as a base-level Hulk, the Hulk will be strong enough to take on Marvel Gods.
3.Con tries to manipulate my answer here, my response was "Reed Richards has been able to calm the Hulk a couple of times, once as a plot device and another time using an anti gamma energy gun. I am not going to elaborate on Banner since they are both are both personalities in a single mind and it would be really hard to explain. But yes Banner was able to calm the Hulk down on several occasions due to obvious reasons." As you can see I stated exactly why both individuals were/are able to calm the Hulk down.
Also the scans in which Spiderman calms the Hulk down, my opponent fails to mention the presence of a certain gamma field. As there was no such arrangement agreed in this battle, it is irrelevant. The second scan does show Hulk trusting Spiderman but it does not show him reverting back to Bruce Banner which means the Hulk is no way vulnerable to a surprise attack by Spiderman.
4.I am sorry your statement "As long as Spider-Man does not attempt to fight the Hulk or anger him in any way, we are guaranteed no direct confrontation" negates a ‘versus' situation and invalidates the whole argument.

CONTENTION #2 (rebuttals)
1.A usually ‘versus' battle rules include the stipulation that any attempt by either of the opponent to leave the battlefield will result in automatic win for the contender. Here Spiderman's ploy to postpone the fight would result in a loss in the current fight. He could come later with additional equipment and manage to succeed in defeating Hulk, but that involves a second fight and does not qualify as the original fight.
And as far as conjectures go, isn't your argument that Spiderman might be able to calm the Hulk down based on previous situations a conjecture?
2.I will give my own definition of PIS: Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman. Standard ‘vs' fights exempt the contestants from PIS unless otherwise specified. My opponent tries to say that PIS is irrelevant here but since this is a comic book debate we need to adhere to comic book rules. Unless you have evidence showing a feat by Spiderman which equals him defeating another being of FireLord's level, it can only be taken as a one-off anomaly by the writer.

Additional Rebuttals:
a.If Spiderman's spider sense enable him to calculate every move, that means he should never get hit. But I don't have to elaborate on the number of times Spiderman is got badly beaten, even by comparatively slow opponents like the Sandman and Rhino. Also assuming his Spider sense allows him to dodge very hit, it won't stop someone as fast FireLord from landing punches since he is faster than light and even thought process is not faster than light. So unless Spiderman had physical speed to match his spider sense, it's not really helpful in the above fight (vs Firelord).

Pro's Case rebuttals:
1.Even a thunderclap at Hulk's base level is enough to shatter an eardrum at close range. So unless Spiderman was a considerable distance away, even a weak thunderclap would stun him.
2.If Spiderman finds a way to knock the Hulk without agitating him at the same time, it will be a miracle. I don't see how he can avoid fighting and knock Hulk out the same time.
3.As for Thor's reflexes matching Spiderman's, examples include: catching bullets in mid-flight, hitting Silver Surfer (a herald with light-speed) etc.

Cross Examination Rebuttals:
Question #1
Since Con didn't answer accurately enough, I will provide scenarios of Hulk vs Spiderman, as far as I know:
a.ASM#14: Hulk wins
Hulk 1 Spider-man 0
b.Spider-man annual#3:
Draw: Hulk doesn�t try to smash Spiderman at the end and he just lets Hulk go so nobody really wins.
c.ASM#119-120: Hulk wins
Hulk 2 Spider-man 0
d.WOS #44/Hulk #349- Hulk wins
Hulk 3 Spider-man 0
e.ASM#328: Spiderman wins twice
Hulk 3 Spider-man 2
f.WOS #69- Hulk nearly drowns Spiderman
Hulk wins: Hulk 4 Spider-man 2
Final Results: Hulk 4, Spiderman 2 (I couldn't provide details because of character limit)
As you can see, the only time Spiderman gains a definitive win over the Hulk is when he had the cosmic power.
Question #2
By base strength I mean starting strength. The statement that Spiderman has a strength level of 100 tons is absurd and a mere conjecture on the part of con. Please show official evidence (either from a comic book or other reliable sources) citing he has anywhere near that strength level
Question#4
If you are saying that Hulk at his weakest is less durable than Hulk, it entirely untrue. While hulk has been shown capable of withstanding 50-calibre bullets at this weakest, Spiderman is shown as being vulnerable to shotgun bullets.
Conclusion
So unless Spiderman can repeatedly hit Hulk with punches stronger than missiles before the Hulk can get angry (which takes a comparatively short time), he has no chance to knock out the Hulk. You also take into account the Hulk's regenerative powers, so any damage the Spiderman does manage to inflict will almost instantly be healed. But this is not the case for Spiderman, a hit by Hulk can easily cause considerable damage and since he has limited healing abilities, he will be in serious trouble and will quickly run out of stamina and strength, ultimately causing him to lose the battle.

Scans:
Hulk's thunder clap is stronger than any hurricane ever recorded:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Hulk stops the "unstoppable" Juggernaut:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Dog o' War (a mechanical dog created by Maestro that can crush adamantium in 7.3 seconds) fights the Hulk and tries to bite his head off but he doesn't even pierce the hulk's skin:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Dr. Doom says nothing in the universe can break through his invisible force field....obviously he's never met the Hulk:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Hulk breaks Thor's hammer.:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Hulk stops a Boeing 747 without much effort:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Hulk beats up the High Evolutionary:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
http://i30.photobucket.com...
http://i30.photobucket.com...
http://i30.photobucket.com...
http://i30.photobucket.com...
Hulk takes out Spidey with a simple clap:
http://i30.photobucket.com...
There is so much more but simply put, the Hulk is the strongest one there is, ‘nuff said, Vote PRO!
Logical-Master

Con

CONTENTION #1(rebuttals)

1. PRO ignores my reasoning for insisting that I ought ot be able to cite Cosmic Spider-Man (much less Spider-Man with prep time) if he is able to cite a pre-savagely enraged Hulk. What I'm insisting is that someone else getting the Hulk angry would be the equivalent to relying on preptime or some outside force. In order to truly abide my PRO's conditions on the fight, no one but Spider-Man or the Hulk himself should serve as a means to strengthen his powers by getting him angry. If PRO wishes to allow outside variables and/or prep time, then Spider-Man wins by getting Doctor Strange to have the Uni-power become one with Spider-man again or he wins by borrowing a couple of devices from Reed Richards.

2. I've cited PROOF that Spider-Man's strength limit is above ten tons. An object which She-Hulk can barely lift alone weighs more than 10 tons. A skyscraper weighs more than 10 tons. Just look back at my evidence which I provided on this matter during the 3rd round. Furthermore, actual Source material trumps a mere wikia article any day of the week.

As for putting Spidey on the battlefield with anything more than normal strength, I'm not doing this. What I've cited is Spider-man's normal strength. However, the difference between Spider-Man and the Hulk is that Spider-Man rarely even uses his actual level of strength due to the fear that he may kill his opponents. However, as PRO himself has pointed out, the Hulk has a good healing factor. Spider-Man himself knows this and knows the extent of the Hulk's powers. Thus, there is no reason as to why Spider-Man would hold back his strength if he were to currently fight the Hulk. In addition, contrary to what PRO advocates, Spider-Man doesn't need to get infuriated to use his full strength. Unlike the Hulk, he has total control of his abilities.

3. I have not manipulated my opponent's answer. In R2, my opponent stated that everyone has come up with a blank in terms of how to calm the Hulk. The fact of the matter is that his answers during C/X directly contradict this. His explanations on how this came about are irrelevant. All that matters is that it's established as possible.

As for Spider-Man calming the Hulk down via gammafield, what PRO misunderstands is that making use of this knowledge would not require prep time. After all, this battle took place in New York City and given that Spider-Man lives in New York and that the Hulk would most likely be in New York in order to fight Spidey (this is where they both most commonly appear at and it's not like someone of Parker's budget would likely appear anywhere else), all he'd have to do in this battle is lure the Hulk to this same place and trick him into repeating exactly what he did in the previous scan I presented. Spider-Man is well experienced in cat/mouse tactics, so pulling this off would be simple.

As for the 2nd scan, I merely used that to establish that Spider-Man could get out of having to fight the Hulk directly. He could rely moreso on deception to beat the Hulk.

4. Not at all. Spider-Man still has every intention of beating the Hulk and he can't help it if the Hulk would be too dumb not to see otherwise. If anything, this is reliance on intelligence and nothing more. In no way does this negate the "versus situation" and nothing within PRO's parameters says otherwise.

CONTENTION #2 (rebuttals)

1. Firstly, no reference to "usual versus battle rules" (much less an actual definition) were made when PRO set the parameters for the battle. In fact, I wasn't made aware of them until this round, thus this is clearly the "moving the goal post" fallacy at work. Second, there was no specific battlefield set (pro even suggested that the battle could very well take place anywhere in response to my C/X). Thirdly, if you'll read C/X, when I asked PRO about whether preparation DURING the battle was allowed, he pointed out that it was and that he only meant anything BEFORE the battle started, thus any result of preparation DURING the battle is acceptable.
Finally, my argument that Spidey would be able to calm the hulk is not conjecture because as PRO has pointed, I'm using evidence (precedent) to establish this as most likely being true.

2. PRO states that we should adhere to PIS since this is a comic book debate and that comic book debates hsould adhere to comic book rules.

1) PIS is not a comic book rule. It is simply some rule fans like to apply on comic book forums. There is not a SINGLE comic book which actual develops or upholds these rules. This is merely a rule made up by fans who have absolutely no authority. And given that we're not arguing on a comic book forum, I see absolutely no reason to uphold such ridiculous rules. 2) We're not dealing with the laws of science. We're dealing with a fictional universe where sheer pseudo scientific absurdities are part of daily life. This fact alone would suggest that upholding PIS is absurd in itself. Ergo, I really don't even need evidence showing a feat by Spider-Man which equals firelord. The actual comic where this occurs IS the evidence.

Additional:
a. Spider-Man usually gets hit or makes other general mistakes in battle either because he hesitates (which comes from his fear of killing) or because his mind simply isn't completely focused on the fight at hand (which can even enable someone on the Punisher's level to tag Spider-Man). We have no reason to believe that this would be the case here. In addition, Spider-Man is well capable of dodging light speed movements. An update in my evidence thread indicates that( see most recent post):http://www.debate.org...

PRO's Case (rebuttals):

1. Spider-Man could simply web himself some web earmuffs before the Hulk got the chance. :D
2. Considering that both Spider-Man and Captain America (has trained Spidey and is much weaker) have knocked out the Hulk before (as indicated by my scans), I'd hardly call it a miracle.
3. Spider-Man caught bullets in a highly weakened condition in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #1, has hit FireLord (a herald with light-speed) and has dodged blast (light speed) from carnage surfer (who no doubt had his abilities amplified thanks to the symbiote).

C/X Rebuttals:
Question #1
a. The Hulk didn't win as this fight had no conclusion thanks to the Green Goblin.
b. Incidentally, PRO leaves out the fact that Spider-Man LET the Hulk free because he felt bad for him. He could've won. No conclusion to this fight
c. Agreed
d. See my scans in the evidence thread. No conclusion.
e. Agreed
f. Betty accidentally shot Spidey with an energy absorbing ray, hence handicapping him big time. This fight doesn't count.

Question #2.

I've provided evidence. Refer back to my R3 link, read the evidence thread and watch Spidey lift an object which both he and She-Hulk had to lift together previously. Also note how Spidey supports the Daily Bugle with his physical strength/

Question #4.

No enough room to explain what I meant, so I'm gonna concede on this question. He still has his legendary agility, thus shouldn't even need to rely on durability anyway.

Scans:

1-7 deal with a pre-enraged Hulk. That last scan is simply Professor Hulk(incidentally, weaker than a hurricane). If he is allowed, Cosmic Spidey is allowed.

Conclusion:

Ladies and gentleman, as indicated by my scans with Captain America Knocking out the Hulk while merely being at the peak of normal human strength (as well as Spider-Man knocking out the Hulk too, as shown in the evidence thread), you don't need to hit the Hulk with punches stronger than missiles to knock him out and you certainly don't need a lot of time to knock him out either. Hulk's regenerative abilities won't make much of a difference if Spidey fights in the way he has or Captain America has. That, or he could win in the other ways I've specified.

Thanks for the debate. Vote CON. :D
Debate Round No. 5
34 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PrvnMthws 8 years ago
PrvnMthws
Thanks..I would like have another debate with LM on some subject..during the summer break..after I finish my semester and all the stress that goes along with it..:)
Posted by fisher 8 years ago
fisher
Best debate ever.
Posted by Maikuru 8 years ago
Maikuru
Seeing this debate end is like reaching the end of a good book; I'm both satisfied and a little sad. I'll vote when I get the chance to review the arguments (this may or may not have to do with me wanting to see the scans again).
Posted by PrvnMthws 8 years ago
PrvnMthws
Thanks for the debate, it was a pleasure.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Oh yeah and a summarization of those fights (the ones you cited under C/X question #1) can be found on spiderfan.org
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Actually (though don't take this as part of the debate), Spider-Man technically beat professor Hulk since he was the key factor in calming him down if I recall correctly. Of course, most of my knowledge relies on scans I've seen posted during these kinds of discussions, so I'm not completely sure.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Would've been so much better without the character limit, but oh well.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Agreed. All in all, this was a pretty good debate. One of the most thorough I've had on this site.
Posted by brycef 8 years ago
brycef
I find it a little troubling that this debate is more thorough than a number of political ones I've seen on here! lol
25 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by iholland95 4 years ago
iholland95
PrvnMthwsLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: The hulk just destroys things. He doesn't really save anyone. Spidey saves EVERYONE
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
PrvnMthwsLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: counter imabeast7
Vote Placed by iPwnuNOW 5 years ago
iPwnuNOW
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Vote Placed by MikeyMike 5 years ago
MikeyMike
PrvnMthwsLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: The Hulk would still win, Pro just didn't argue this well enough.
Vote Placed by brokenboy 6 years ago
brokenboy
PrvnMthwsLogical-MasterTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Hulk pwns all
Vote Placed by imabeast7 6 years ago
imabeast7
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Reasons for voting decision: argument for spidey was inaccurate and just simply du mb
Vote Placed by tymel1120 6 years ago
tymel1120
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Vote Placed by WhoDaFoo4 7 years ago
WhoDaFoo4
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Vote Placed by PrvnMthws 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by tanshin 7 years ago
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