The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Duncan
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

I am justified through the blood of jesus Christ

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Duncan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/6/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 526 times Debate No: 61349
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (3)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

We are either guilty, or guilty but justified. If things are not made right, we have to pay for our sins. We are all guilty of breaking God's law. We must die guilty and pay for breaking God's law or be forgiven and justified so we don't have to pay. Are you justified, or do you think you are good and do not need to be justified? What is your excuse for living? If you are not living forever, your excuse for living is not very good, is it?

You can expect some Hell ffire and brimstone preaching in my arguments. Preaching is nothing but proclaiming truth. If you are not justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, then you are going to pay for your sins in Hell. I will repeat this in my arguments and explain why it is true if you do not accept it or understand it..

This debate is under the category of "philosophy", "love of wisdom", because it is wise to know that you are justified and will not be held guitly in God's Judgement. Don't be a cry baby please, take the challenge and brace yourself for some Hell fire preaching, Mr. Duncan.

P.S. To the voters: there is no secret here that my arguements wiill be packed with preaching. If my opponent accepts this challenge, it has been made clear to him that preaching is going to be plentiful and bold. Votes should be according to the arguments, not against preaching. I expect my opponent to deny that Jesus is God, and I will turn the debate against my opponent showing how he cannot be justified to live wiithout Jesus Christ's sinless blood payment and resurrection. .
Duncan

Con

I do not need justification for my existence. I am here. Why would I need justification? There isn't an authority I have to validate myself to in order to be worthy of existence. Don't misunderstand me; I can respect other religions. I have no quarrel with those who desire religion in their lives. But they do not need the approval of that religion to live. In understand if you feel that by your beliefs, anyone who isn't part of your religion is wrong, but the catch of me respecting your beliefs is that you have to respect the beliefs of others. Yes, you have the right to choose your own religion, but so does everyone else, and you have to respect that as well.

The issue here is not that you hold beliefs which I do follow. It is that you have been using this site as an altar. No; DDO is a site of debate and discussion. Those who would use the site as advertising are abusing the freedom this site grants to shout. If you want to preach, you can found your own website, or bring this up in the forums. However, opening a debate implies that you are actually willing to discuss and debate, and the way that your recent debates have been left with no one able to accept them prevents this.

I can see that answering this debate with pure reason could be ineffective, and since we have a few rounds to go, I'm go to hypothesize for the next few rounds. Next round, I'm going to explain why if God existed, we still wouldn't need to justify ourselves to him.

P.S. rebuttal; Yes, votes should be base on the argument, which is why in the voting system, which side you agreed with to begin with gives no points. I began with an argument from the point of someone is not religious, but since I am aware the existence of God is a different debate topic, next round, I will argue while agreeing the christian God exists. I won't deny that Jesus is God, but that means Jesus is his dad, and he got his own mother pregnant with himself.

See you next round,

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Ok, let's try to be realistic here. This debate is not about your existence. You exist. Your existence is a fact and does not require justifcation. If you burn in eternal Hell, you exist. If you live forever in heaven, you exist. If you do not exist, you do not exist. You exist, and you can't change that and nobody can change that. Nothing changes the fact that you exist. Facts stand on their own without justifcation or condemnation. This debate is about your excuse for living. Your existence is not an excuse for living. If it is your excuse for living, it's a poor excuse because you are surely dying. It sounds like you have no excuse for living. All you have is dying, and that is a fact. Death is authoritative over you. You are not authoritative over death. If existence justifies life, why is life denied in death? There is no justification of life simply in existence. You need justification to live or you will surely die unjustified. If existence justifies your life, then your life cannot be taken away. You life is already taken away by death, that is all you can count on. Your existence does not justfy you, you do not have the right to live simply because you exist or that right would not be denied by death.

You talk about religion a lot. That is because you are religious in trying to justify yourself by saying "I exist". You are trying to convince yourself that you are exempt from judgement of death in Hell because you exist. You are fooling yourself. That is what religion does. Religion leads people to think that they can please God or gain entrance to heaven or be exempt from punishment of Hell based on their own worrds or actions. What I am talking about is reality. I do not respect beliefs that are wrong. I respect your right to believe the wrong things. I do not repect wrong beliefs. You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. It's hard for me to sit quiet when I see you saying things that show you are on your way to Hell and you need to be saved from it and I know you can be saved from it. Maybe you do not care and you will not listen. Others are watching and considering the possibilities. The ones that only God knows are being touched by His truth are just as important to me as writing these things trying to tell you that God is being reasonable with you and He is more than fair and He is just to leave you in the fire of Hell forever if you don't care that he died in your place and gave His innocent life's blood to pay for the guilt of your sin which you deserve to burn in Hell for. Will you see before you feel the heat of the fire of Hell? I really hope so.

God loves me so much, He came down from heaven to die in my place. He gave His Son to pay for my sins. His blood is my justification. God took my punishment on Himself and I have admitted my guilt and accepted His blood payment for my sins. He justifies me in His resurrection. His eternal life is mine. He lives in me. I am justifed by His blood.
Duncan

Con

We can't be realistic here, I already agreed to acknowledge God's existence in this round. Justification of something implies it was previously unjust. Why was it unjust? How is it wrong to exist and why should any person have to provide a reason as to why they should continue existing? Here's the problem; justification is supposed to be justice. Justice is doing what is just, or morally correct. That means you believe one must explain why their very existence has improved the quality of life for others. Let's all remember that. You say that because God made the Romans execute his own child, you existing has made the world a better place. God is Jesus, so God committing suicide, patricide and filicide, all on one, has made your birth a morally justified occurrence.

Second of all, I said last round that I'll accept that God exists, but Death is not a sentient entity. It is an occurrence. You're not a slave to going to the bathroom, or a victim when you get a cold. My life is not taken away, it ends when I die. I don't have to return it to a bank to get my deposit back.

Sure, I talk about religion a lot, but more as a reactionary than an instigator. Religion doesn't affect me, but this site is a real gem to me, and when someone decides to abuse it as a pulpit for their religion while shutting out discussion, that is something I take offense from. I get that you have a right to religion, but so do I. So does every person on this site, and in the world. You disrespect our chosen beliefs when you make claims such as us all going to hell, when every other religion is just as valid as yours. This isn't just your belief here; you are going onto this site and declaring that every other person on this site is going to suffer for all eternity unless they agree with you. That could even be considered a threat. If we can be offended when a stranger hurls derogatory insults at us online, we can damn well be hurt when someone constantly insists that not only are our beliefs and ways of life wrong, but immoral too.

God loves you so much does he? That's good for you. Too bad he forgot about all the other people in the world. The people who don't have access to the internet or even clean drinking water. The people who don't even have basic education. Since they don't have access to all these resources, they will also suffer damnation by your reasoning. They weren't even given a chance. If God allows these people to suffer, then by his inaction, harm has befallen millions. Justify that. Justify the actions and existence of a deity which helps few and harms many, all while claiming to love. God is omniscient. He knows all. He created every person knowing their ultimate fate. Every crime is his doing. True, he does good as well, but murderers don't get let off just because they gave to charity. You are the only one who claims that justification is necessary. The sun sets red. How? Because red travels farthest. Why? Does there need to be a reason?

Duncan
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Ok, since we can't be realistic, I guess I'll have to try to be realistic for both of us. I'll try to sort out your helter skelter argument that has nothing to do with the fact that God loves me so much that He paid for my sins with His own blood so I am justified by His resurrection. I am forgiven of my sins and I do not have to burn in Hell. While I am guilty of being a sinner the same as you, God will find me innocent because He Himself paid for my sins when He took my death on the cross. He wants you to be found innocent also, but you keep saying you do not need to be justifed so there is no justificatkion for you. Sitting there whining and crying about me saying that if your sins are not forgiven yoiu are not going to heaven and the only other place for you to go is into the fire of Hell is not realistic. It's just being a cry baby. I gave you this challenge because you were being a cry baby acting like you don't deserve to die.. Now all you do is insult me and say I'm insulting you and whoever else you say is insulted by me telling them the truth. We all deserve to burn in Hell. We all deserve to die. You are not justified or you would not have to die. You are under death penalty and denying your guilt will not get you off the hook.


Hello, earth calling. Who said you have to justify your existence? You are the one who is trying to say you are justifed simply because you exist, therefore you need no justifcation. I'm saying you are guilty and unjustifed and deserve to die and burn in Hell the same as me and everybody else. I'm also saying I am forgiven because God loves me so much that He paid for my sins with His own blood and rose from the grave so that by believing on Him and calling on God in Jesus' name to save me from Hell, I am forgiven and God is satified that my sin has been paid for so I am justified by the resurreciton of Jesus Christ, justified by His blood. That is the only thing I have to explain how I am justifed. You are trying to put all kinds of words in my mouth and make all kinds of unrealistic accusations and insults while you accuse me of all kinds of stuff. Your problem is that you are trying to deny your own guilt. We are all guilty of breaking God's law and we all deserve to die and burn in Hell. If you don't like me saying that, too bad.

The only thing you are proving is that you are not justified. You exixt, no doubt about that. But you are not juistified to live or you would not have to die. You have no gaurantee of one more breath of air becaue you do not deserve it and you are not justifed to live. You are condemned to die. You are a dead man walking and talkign, you are as good as dead and death is justice against you. If you don't want to accept the fact that you deserve to die, I can't help you. You can just go on being a crybaby saying you hate my preaching.

Repeating what you avoid: If you are not living forever, your excuse for living is not very good, is it?
Duncan

Con

If we are being realistic, then I have to use an argument I'd prefer not to use, because I don't take joy from saying this to people of faith. There is no god. There is no evidence of any deity, and any problems with the big bang theory are problems with the explanation of any deity as well. Religion is a natural development in human society because it helps motivates groups to co-operate, but oftentimes it is abused by its leaders and marginalises society. I don't like saying this because I have many friends with faith, who I don't want to hurt in any way, and I don't hate the people who believe, rather the system under which they are guided. God has yet to be proven and he is not supported by any credible theory. The only evidence you claim to have is an ancient book that's been translated so many times that the guidelines written for its ancient audience can only be vaguely interpreted.

I don't like arguing about the existence of god because I understand what I have to say is hurtful to many, but I understand that those who have faith will be able to respect my opinion as I respect theirs. I have stated above what is my belief, and I understand and accept that others may hold conflicting ones. This debate is different, which is why I will now be arguing from a point that agrees with God's existence. The way I see this debate is one which is meditation on the very nature of morality. You are arguing that not only does every person alive have to explain why they have morally justified their life, but your way is the only way to reach that solution. What I am saying is that you are not justified by God committing suicide 2000 years ago.

The idea that we are born with sin is one created by God. God is not a viable source of moral guidance when you take into account His sins. Wiping out the dinosaurs? The Black Death? Every earthquake and tsunami that has ever taken a life. The being that designs flesh eating bacteria (http://www.medicinenet.com...) is not a good being. Sine is defined as something that offends God, so by His standards, anything He doesn't like is immoral. This makes morality prone to change depending on God's mood at the time. Murder is wrong unless god is in a "smite some heathens" mood. Philosophy will always involve the search for morality, but I personally follow Mill's theory. Any action that improves the living quality of the world in any quantity without it diminishing is a morally good action.

In that way, if we even needed to be justified, surely it would be through our own actions? Through morally good action regardless of religion? You cannot be justified by the actions of someone else. The reason I opposed your preaching is because you locked down challengers while using the site as advertising.

To counter your last line; If you are living forever while scolding others for existing for even a fraction of your existence, you are self-centered and self obsessed.

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 3
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

My opponent sure is putting a lot of words in my mouth in this debate. All I am saying is that God loves me so much that He paid for my sins againt Him wiith His own blood and be believing on His resurrection and calling on God in the name of Jesus Christ to save me from sin, death, and Hell, I am justified through faith in the blood He willingly gave to pay for my sins so He can overlook my crimes agaisnt Him. If I smack Duncan accross the chops, that would be a sin against God. The wrath of man does not work the righteiousness of God. It would be wrong for me to do that to Duncan, even though he is a crybaby complaining about the idea that we all deserve to die and burn in Hell, but it still would be wrong for me to do that to Duncan. Anything that anybody does wrong is a violation of God's law first. I deserve to die because I am a sinner. Duncan hates me for saying we both deserve to die and burn in Hell. Duncan's hatred against me is a sin against God. Duncan does not deserve to live any more than I do. The difference between me and Duncan is that he thinks he needs no forgiveness from God. Really, he does not. If he has no objection to burning in Hell, he does not need God's forgiveness. We all deserve to burn in Hell now. If Duncan feels threatened by this idea, I think he needs to talk to God about it. God loves Duncan and will forgive him of all his wrongs if he will A. Admit that he is a sinner who deserves to die and burn in Hell. B. Believe God loves him so much that He gave Himself to pay for Duincans sins with His own blood, and He rose from the grave bodily offering Duncan forgiveness for the things he did which Jesus had to pay for to buy Duncan back from sin, death, and Hell. Duncan could be juustified by the blood of Jesus Christ, but he insists that hsi existence justifies his life. Than is not justification. It is nothing but acceptance of death. If you won't admit that you are guilty toward God and have broken His law, you can find no mercy from Him. If you don't have his mercy, you have no justification for living.

Apparently, my opponent only wanted to whine about me saying that we all deserve to die and burn in Hell. He can say there is no God. That does not hurt me at all. It's only hurting himself. To say there is no God is an attempt to negate yourself by thinking you do not have to give account to God for your actions, so nothing you do really matters. That's wrong. What you do matters. The problem is that you have done wrong and have broken God's law and set yourself apart form God. You need to be jsutified or you have no reason for God not to leave you cast away in the burning garbage pit of Hell. I hope my opponent will quit crying about God's Judgement. It is good to know God punishes sin and forgives sinners based on the fact that He gave His own blood to pay for thier sins.

You can never prove God is not there and you can never prove Hell is not real hot burning fire that punishes sinners.
Don't be a fool.
Duncan

Con

The motion for the debate is "I am justified through the blood of jesus Christ". You're the one who set this challenge, so you can't blame me when you forget your own motion. You are proposition on this debate, and have to argue such. You are not here to argue that God loves you. If You attack me, that would be wrong, yes. But if God told you to attack me, then it would no longer be a sin. It would still be immoral. This means that morality exists outside of God, meaning God can be wrong. I am not the one crying out here, preacher. No one deserves eternal suffering. No one. You cannot name a single person who deserves punishment for all of time. That is a terrible sentence, and to wish that on anyone, or falsely claim it will happen to anyone, is a threat, and verbal abuse is morally wrong. It may be wrong, but you don't deserve damnation for that.

Question for you. I haven't read the bible in 6 years, why did Jesus commit suicide again? He is his own father, who condemned him to death, which counts as suicide. Who did he buy anyone back from? If every person is born with original sin, then how come Mary didn't have original sin? How come Jesus didn't have sin? The bible needs to be interpreted to make sense nowadays, ask any christian. I doubt even the Catholic Church teaches hell anymore, and if God created the devil knowing full well that he would later have to kill his own son just to appease his own creation, then creating the devil makes all the consequences God's responsibility.

Innocent until proven guilty. Prove every person in the world is guilty to the point of having to be justified. Prove God is "guilty" of existing. Prove hell is a place. Prove the bible is more than a religious text. You see, faith is an important part of religion. It's not its entirety. Reason is just as much a factor in religion. You use reason to interpret the bible and have faith in what you interpret. Don't accuse me of being a fool when you try to use the literal context of the bible to try and scare people into doing what you tell them.

You know what? As long as you actually let people accept your debates, I'm ok with you making these debates. It is free speech after all, but free speech is not exemption from criticism. If you don't block people from entering your debates, then people can just make their own decision on whether or not you're just a fundamentalist. That is why I spoke out against your earlier debate, and if you accept challengers, then I will have to be satisfied with that. To do any more would be to disrespect your opinion. Can you promise to do that? To respect other and accept their involvement in your debates?

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 4
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

Duncan,

Listen please, young man.

You enjoy attacking the faith of God in the gospel of Jesus Christ, despising His work on the cross for you. The reason that I blocked you from accepting challenges with me is that you have nothing to say other than there is no God and you hate me for saying we all deserve to die and burn in Hell and we need to be saved from it. Look back at all the things you have accused me of in this debate. I called you a cry baby and whiner because you cried and whined about not being able to accept my debate challenge. I ignored most of your accusations and slander because it is all baseless. I blocked you and many otherw who can't get past "there is no god" and then they act like you acted here when i tell them God loves them and wants them to be saved from hell to have eternal life in heaven. You, son, if you were to die today, would wake up in the fire of Hell unless you first call on God in the name of Jesus Christ the resurrected Saviour, the only God, and get saved from Hell. He created you and loves you so much He paid the price to save you from Hell even though you say you do not need to be forgiven and you do not care. He still loves you. When you start to listen, I iwll may let you take another challenge wiith me. Atheists generally hate and deny the truth. If you can't admit that you deserve to die, you are not living in reality. You do not deserve to live any more than the guy laying in a hospital bed drawing his last breath of air. If you do not want to read stuff like this, if you don't want to hear it, please just stay away from my debates. You will not be allowed to accept another challenge with me when you are acting like a two year old throwing a big temper tantrum because you want to show your tail. You showed me. You showed me that you think you deserve to live. That is dumb. Nobody deserves to live. We all deserve death and we got it coming in our bodies from the moment we were conceived. Death is God's judgement. Salvation and eternal life is His offer. If you receive His Son as your Saviour, eternal life is the gift of God. I have no ill intentions or desries toward you or anybody else. All I want is for you to know God loves you even though you hate Him. He will give you your heart's desire if you trust Him. If you trust Him, your hearts desire will fall in line with His heart's desire and the hope of eternal life will move you to become like Jesus more and more, to know Him and the power of His resurrection. You are missing out. You are growing up to be an angry atheist, and all that will get you from God is the fire of Hell. I'm telling you the truth. If I let you come on my debates and act this way, I would be dishonoring myself. I kept this challenge closed to prevent atheist from arguing the way you did. It's dumb. I don't care for it. You are not listening. Don't look at my debates if you don't like it. Untill you learn to show respect, no more debates for you.
Duncan

Con

Don't condescend with me. Even when both sides hold conflicting ideas, a degree of respect is important. I told you I could respect your beliefs if you respected the beliefs of others. Don't treat me like a child with dismissive statements like; "Untill you learn to show respect, no more debates for you."

I don't take pleasure in destroying the faiths of others, and you have yet to explain what I have accused you of other than not allowing anyone to enter your debates, all the while, you call me a crybaby because I spoke out against you. Your debates always revolve around your username. "lifemeansgodisgood". The basis on which I spoke out was that if on a site dedicated to debate and discussion, you prevented both while making offensive religious claims, that meant you were simply preaching using the site as a pulpit. And look at your debate topics. Who other than non-religious would accept those topics? By blocking the only people who would actually challenge you, you make the Challenges page appear as if it has yet to contest your point of view, thus validating it.

I know I am getting sidetracked, but sidetracked is exactly how I would describe your arguments thus far. Instead of actually rebutting or even addressing my points, you revert to giving Mass in the middle of a debate. The debate is about whether or not God committing suicide makes you existence morally good or not. Here is my argument in concise form.

1; God is the only one who says we actually need to justify ourselves. He wants control over us, and considering the trillions he has murdered, he is not a moral force to rely on. Thus, we do not have to explain why by our existence, we morally improve the world.

2; Even if we did have to justify our existence, God had his son killed. He also had himself killed because he is his own child. This raises further questions, but at no point is there an explanation given by you how the actions of one person justify the existence of another.

3; Everyone has the right to life. Even if you don't like someone, or even hate them, they have the right to exist, as every person in the world does. Every person in every religion has the right to exist, and no guilt or punishment should be given to them upon birth.

A point I would like to bring up. Don't generalize any group in society. Not all Christians are the same, not all atheists are the same. If you give someone that stigma, you lock down discussion by assuming you already know all the arguments they would have. That isn't healthy for discussion. Debating proves that you believe in your arguments strong enough to risk being proven wrong about them, and by refusing further debate, you show how much you really dislike discussing your beliefs.

I will restate this as I feel it is an important part to mention again. I am not telling you to stop debating. I am asking you to stop blocking others from entering your debates. No disrespect here. Person to person; can you promise that?

Duncan.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
The Bible is not the proof, the Bible is the claim. Citation of the Bible as proof of itself is no more fruitful than relying on "The Chamber of Secrets" to validate a wizardy's existence.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by RevL8ion 2 years ago
RevL8ion
LifeMeansGodIsGoodDuncanTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Agreed with Pro because of my belief in God, and tied due to the superior arguments of Con, although I believe I could have presented my ideas much more eloquently. Conduct to Con because Pro was criticizing him for having a different point of view from him, and used phrases like "crybaby." Spelling and grammar to Duncan because of better organization and wrong capitalization on Pro's part. Arguments to Con because of his counters and total lack of BoP on Pro's part. No sources from either side, but I can overlook that due to this being a religious debate. Con was the clear victor.
Vote Placed by Commondebator 2 years ago
Commondebator
LifeMeansGodIsGoodDuncanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con defiantly made more convincing arguments.
Vote Placed by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
LifeMeansGodIsGoodDuncanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Burden of proof was not met. Having read this, I can see no evidence presented that my life by virtue of being alive needs to be justified, much less that I am guilty of something. And it got uncivil. REAL quick.