The Instigator
GMDebater
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
ReformedArsenal
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points

I am kohai

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
ReformedArsenal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/21/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,252 times Debate No: 17160
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (3)

 

GMDebater

Con

My opponent must prove that I am kohai.

First round I will give the terms and con will present his arguments
Second round will be the first rebuttals
Third round will be second rebuttals
fourth round will be final rebuttals and closing arguments

Pro has the entire bop in this debate to prove that I am kohai.
ReformedArsenal

Pro

I would like to begin this debate by submitting several pieces of evidence that show that my opponent is indeed the same person who has debated under the aliases of Kohai, Militant Atheist, and Agnostic86. For the sake of this debate I shall refer to these persons all as Kohai regardless of the actual login name of a given debate.

Before I being the debate, I would like to clear up some issues with he resolution. My opponent as instigator has written an incredibly poorly phrased resolution. If the resolution is argued as written, I am actually arguing that I am kohai... I am not kohai. However, the spirit of the debate (as noted in my opponent's opening round) is to prove that HE is kohai. So I would like to conceptually amend the resolution to state "GMDebater is the same person as the debater known as Kohai, MillitantAtheist, and Agnostic86"

C1) This clarification also serves as my first line of evidence. Kohai has a history of posting poorly worded resolutions, typically due to posting them without carefully thinking through the implications of the words he chooses. Please see http://www.debate.org... and http://www.debate.org... for examples. In both cases Kohai's opponent easily defeated him using a semantic attack againsta poorly worded resolution. I could have done something similar in this case by saying "Yes I am." I would have proven the resolution true by claiming to be Kohai, and therefore would won.

C2) My second point of evidence is the structure found within the debates, particularly the FIRST debate that each profile initiated.

GMdebater: http://www.debate.org...
Kohai (As MillitantAtheist): http://www.debate.org...

Please note that in both debates we have opening remarks that indicate that they are new debaters. This in itself would not be uncommon, but when we look at the remainder of the round we see shocking similarities. First, we see an almost identical structure and layout for how the debate will unfold. This is a highly developed structure and reflects experience on this site. Also note that both opening topics are attacks on the Bible, which is typical of Kohai's chosen debate preference. Also note the commun use of the phrase "Opening Syllogism" from GMdebater's first debate and MillitantAtheist's debate: http://www.debate.org...

C3) Both Kohai and GMDebater have shown a tendency to post profile comments rather than to use the private messaging function of this website.

GMDebater: https://picasaweb.google.com...
Kohai (as Kohai): https://picasaweb.google.com...
Kohai (As MillitantAtheist): https://picasaweb.google.com...

C4) My next point of evidence is the geographical and age similarity of the two profiles

GMDebater: http://www.debate.org...
Kohai (As MilitantAtheist): http://www.debate.org...

Note that they are both late teens, both from Aberdeen, MD. These two things by themselves are circumstantial, but when taken in conjunction with the other evidence they build a picture of two persons who are from the same area, are similar in age, debate similar topics, show very similar behavioral patterns, and use the same opening argument.

According to City-Data.com Aberdeen ( http://www.city-data.com... ) and Aberdeen Proving Ground ( http://www.city-data.com... ) have a combined population of 17510 (14099 and 3411 respectively, 2009). 8517 of those residents are male (6701 and 116 respectively). These two "cities" are 13 minutes apart (Center to Center, Google Maps) and cover aproximately 12.75 square miles. ( http://maps.google.com... )

I ask you the reader... is it more likely that two persons with such striking similarities would both live in the same small geographical location, with a relatively smll population, and both end up on this website debating the same people on the same topics... or is it more likely that they are in fact the same person?

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
GMDebater

Con

RC1) My opponent claims that I am the same person as kohai because I have written poor resolutions. However, this is not unusual with new debaters like myself. (and apparently, kohai is also a new debater.)

I would also point out that what does the poor resolution argument prove? There are a lot of poor resolutions on DDO. Is everyone who has poor resolutions the same as kohai?

RC2) My opponent points out that we have a similar style of debate. Personally, I like to open up with syllogisms. Is everyone that opens up with a similar style of debating the same as kohai?

Anyway, I would also like to point out that all what that proves is that I have found a structure and style of debating that fits my personal interest. My opponent points out that we both "attack" the Bible. While this may be true, what does that prove? All that proves is that we share a common belief.

RC3) My opponent points out that we are both in the same geographic region. So what!
According to this page, 3 people (including myself) are in the Aberdeen proving ground area

http://www.debate.org...

My opponent is claiming to be from South Hamption, Massachusetts. debate.org/ReformedArsenal
However, there are two people (including my opponnt) from South Hamption

http://www.debate.org...

Now, according to the same site that my opponent cited, South Hamption has a low population--a MUCH lower population than Aberdeen http://www.city-data.com...

What's more likely, ReformedArsenal and aschwamb are the same or that they just happen to be from the same region?

I will also point out that my opponent stated that we're roughtly the same age. MA is 17 http://www.debate.org... at least claims to be. I am claiming to be 18, what does that prove? Is everyone in the 17-18 age group kohai?

Final Statments

Do you really, in all honesty, think that the DDO's ip check will not detect that I, GMDebater,=Kohai?

Back to you.
ReformedArsenal

Pro

RRC1) I am not just claiming that you write poor resolutions, you write poor resolutions in the same way that Kohai does.

RRC2) Your debating style shows striking similarity to Kohai, including similar formatting, similar structure/rules, and similar phrasing.

RRC3) My opponent has shown to quickly read and misunderstand various aspects of the debate, just as Kohai does. RRC3 has to do with the behavioral commonality of messaging a user through the profile comments instead of an actual message.

RRC4) First of all, It is South Hamilton, again my opponent demonstrates his identiy by making simple mistakes, as Kohai is wont to do.. Second of all, aschwamb is my girlfriend and goes to the same school as I do. If you were to find someone claiming to be the same age, gender, has the same debating style, argues similar debate perspectives, and also matched me in the same ways I have shown you to match Kohai... you might have something.

Finally, Kohai has made multiple accounts before with no issues with the IPChecker... I'm not even sure what the IPChecker my opponent has refered to is. Perhaps he can elightenme about this IPchecker.
Debate Round No. 2
GMDebater

Con

RRRC1) Again, what does that prove other than the fact that we are newer debaters?

RRRC2) Again, what does that prove other than the fact that I have found a style of debates that I like?

RRRC3) So...again, doesn't everyone do that once in a while?

RRRC4) My opponent claims that they do know each other. How do I know that isn't really you and hiding away to vote for yoruself? Anyway, how do I know that she is your girlfriend?

And finally the TOS clearly states that you aren't allowed multiple accounts (I wish someone would tell this "kohai" that!). Therefore, there must be a way of enforcing that rule. The only logical way to do it is by ip.

Secondly my opponent claims that kohai evaded it before. What if DDO ignored it because kohai closed his accounts before creating new ones.

Oh, and by the way, I do agree that this kohai should be banned.
ReformedArsenal

Pro

RRRRC1) It proves that you both make the same mistake, using essentially the same manurisism, and behave incredibly similar in the way you debate.

RRRRC2) You have found a style of debate you like when you have only had a handful of debates? And that style happens to be identical to someone in your home town of 8000 males? Who makes the same mistakes using the same manurisms and behaves very similarly?

RRRRC) Everyone does do that... but not everyone who does do that makes those mistakes, with the same manurisms, and behaves very similarly, and is from the same home town of 8000 males.

RRRRC4) My identity is not an issue in the debate. Yours is. It is entierly possible that the girl you see pictured on aschwamb's profile is indeed a fake picture and that her and I are one and the same. However, that means nothing. However, Her and I do not make the same mitakes, using the same manurisms, behaving in the same way, with the same style of debate, and debate the same topics.

Finally, the prohibition against multiple accounts is monitored by mandating an identity verification by means of cellular telephone.

Secondly, you seem to know a lot about Kohai's other accounts for not being him.

I think any logical reader can clearly see that I have put together a rather compelling case to show that you are indeed Kohai.
Debate Round No. 3
GMDebater

Con

RRRRC1) It proves that you both make the same mistake, using essentially the same manurisism, and behave incredibly similar in the way you debate.

Rebuttal: So does everyone that makes the same mistakes the same person?

RRRRC2) You have found a style of debate you like when you have only had a handful of debates? And that style happens to be identical to someone in your home town of 8000 males? Who makes the same mistakes using the same manurisms and behaves very similarly?

Rebuttal: Well, I did look through several debates and found that this style was cleanest. I may try some new styles in the future--but so what. 8000 males and DDO has 25000+ members. Do you really think that it isn't logical for the same city to have a couple representatives on DDO.

RRRRC) Everyone does do that... but not everyone who does do that makes those mistakes, with the same manurisms, and behaves very similarly, and is from the same home town of 8000 males.

Rebuttal: You have no proof of that. Furthermore, how do you know I'm from Aberdeen? Perhaps I just posted it up there to hide my true city...right?

RRRRC4) My identity is not an issue in the debate. Yours is. It is entierly possible that the girl you see pictured on aschwamb's profile is indeed a fake picture and that her and I are one and the same. However, that means nothing. However, Her and I do not make the same mitakes, using the same manurisms, behaving in the same way, with the same style of debate, and debate the same topics.

Rebuttal: Correct, however your arguments are entirely circumstansial. Circumstansial arguments really don't go well in a court.

Finally, the prohibition against multiple accounts is monitored by mandating an identity verification by means of cellular telephone.

And I have verified my ID with my cell-phone on THIS account.

Secondly, you seem to know a lot about Kohai's other accounts for not being him.

Most of what I know is from talking to MA and looking at his profile.

I think any logical reader can clearly see that I have put together a rather compelling case to show that you are indeed Kohai.

I think any logical reader can see that your case is circumstansial. I urge voters to vote con if there is any shadow of doubt that I am kohai. Thaddeus asked a good question, " if he has stopped using his other accounts to vote bomb, should we really care? Despite the occasional... er, foolishness, Kohai was pretty cool." Really, WHO CARES unless I'm violating the rules of DDO!

Back to you and please vote con!

ReformedArsenal

Pro

Rather than go into a long list of rebuttals, I'd like to close this debate with a few thoughts.

In a debate, Burden of Proof is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (not the shadow of doubt, as in a court case) that the resolution is true. In reality, I cannot prove that GMDebater is Kohai, and GMDebater cannot prove that he is not Kohai. This is a limitation of the anonynimity of the internet. So in this debate we are debating on what is or is not likely, and which situation is more likely.

A few closing comments before I pose my final question:

"Correct, however your aruments are entierly circumstansial. Circumstansial arguments really don't go well in a court." - We are not in a court. When arguing what is more likely, circumstansial evidence can go a long way in establishing probability.

"I have verified my ID with my cell-pone on THIS account." - Two thoughts. How do we know you have done this? Also, Kohai has managed to get past this in the past, we have seen this by the fact that he has voted on his own debate in the past.

"Most of what I know is from talking to MA and looking at his profile." - This is certainly convinient, and seems like a hail mary play to try to create a reason for the debating style to be so similar.

"Really, WHO CARES unless I'm violating the rules of DDO!" - Although not conclusive, this seems to be acknowleging the multiple account issue. Why even bring this up if the rule violation in question is not being breached.

I will not urge my readers to vote a particular way. Rather I will end with a question? Which is the most likely situation: Two males from the same 12.5 sq mile area containing roughly 8000 males, with extremely similar debating styles, manurisms, debating topics, and weaknesses randomly manage to end up on the same website and challenge the same persons to debate.

Or

One person who has a habbit of creating multiple accounts to hide his identity any time he begins to develop a losing record, created a second account after begining to develop a losing record?

Well kind reader which is more likely?
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Contradiction 5 years ago
Contradiction
Way to blow your own cover.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
I didn't use that for two reasons

A) I didn't need it.
B) It is too easily changed.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
Actually, I checked MA's and we do disagree on a few issues
Posted by OMGJustinBieber 5 years ago
OMGJustinBieber
Pro should have used MilitantAtheist's (Kohai) stances on the issues in the profile and cross checked them with GM's and he would have seen the issues lined up completely, at least at the time I am writing this. I'll vote on this later, but personally I'm like 99% sure that GM is Kohai and I have no idea why he needed to debate his own identity.
Posted by ReformedArsenal 5 years ago
ReformedArsenal
Thaddeus>

Yes. We should, for 2 reasons.

A) I don't like debating liars
B) There is nothing to prevent him from beginning to do this again.
Posted by Thaddeus 5 years ago
Thaddeus
Reformed, if he has stopped using his other accounts to vote bomb, should we really care? Despite the occasional... er, foolishness, Kohai was pretty cool.
Posted by GMDebater 5 years ago
GMDebater
ReformedArsenal accused me of being a sock puppet account of kohai. I felt the need to redeem myself.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Why did GMDebater post this debate? Were there suspicions that he was kohai?
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Interesting debate... But I thought militantathist was kohai? God damn, the format of this website! One can go around having five different profiles...
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by SkepticsAskHere 5 years ago
SkepticsAskHere
GMDebaterReformedArsenalTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Wow, David when you messaged me to debate if Jesus was the Messiah and I looked at your profile I really thought that you were a random Jewish guy. Pro convinced me and really did his research.
Vote Placed by BennyW 5 years ago
BennyW
GMDebaterReformedArsenalTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: RA has convinced me. All these things seem way too similar to pass off as coincidence.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
GMDebaterReformedArsenalTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Amusing, but simply saying that doesn't prove anything isn't an argument. 3:1 RA.