The Instigator
Chaosism
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
vi_spex
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

"I believe God doesn't exist" is not Atheism

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Chaosism
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/9/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 921 times Debate No: 73177
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (27)
Votes (2)

 

Chaosism

Pro

I assert that the statement, "I believe that God does not exist", is simply not an Atheistic statement.

Definition from the Oxford Dictionary:
Atheism : Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Please use Round #1 for acceptance only. I shall present my argument in Round #2 and the structure of the rest of the debate shall be undefined.
vi_spex

Con

if your atheist position is i lack belief in the existence of gods, then why do you lack belief? lets reveal your belief in science.. which is not disbelief, not atheism
Debate Round No. 1
Chaosism

Pro

Hi, vi_spex. To preface this debate, when you accept another person's debate, it is generally assumed that you accept all of the definitions and rules that are presented by the instigator of the debate. This is even more so assumed when you don't openly challenge those definitions.

I shall truncate my planned argument to a significant degree, because much our disagreement will reside in the use and definitions of words. I would choose to abort my standard argument, but in the spirit of the debate, I shall provide it to fulfill my BoP. I am confident that you will not be able to rebut my argument without resorting to definitions and custom word usage. After this round, I shall address your arguments.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I shall begin by explaining that the question of God's existence is a dichotomy, meaning that there are only two possible resolutions: either God exists, or God does not exist. There are no other possibilities, and only one of these possibilities can be true, being mutually exclusive of one another.

This establishes that there are two opposite sides to this argument: God exists vs. God does not exist. To hold either side true, one must have a belief that it is the truth. The former *believes* that God exists while the latter *believes* that God does not exist. Since these are both positive claims, two entirely separate "sub-arguments" are created.

In regards to the "God exists" side, there are two possible positions based on the arguer's state of belief:

I believe that God exists -or- I do not believe that God exists

The former position is Theism, which *believes* that God exists. The latter is Atheism which is *absent of the belief* that God exists, as Atheism is defined. Theism asserts that God exists while Atheism merely rejects that assertion. Nowhere in this sub-argument exists the position of "God does not exist"; that argument belongs on the opposite side of the dichotomy, which I will describe later.

An example of this can be found in the US legal court system. "Innocent until proven guilty". The court is charged with determining whether the defendant is either Guilty or Not Guilty; NOT Guilty or Innocent. The court systems are not designed to prove one's innocence. When one is deemed Not Guilty, it indicates that there is insufficient evidence to prove the defendant Guilty; this verdict, in of itself, doesn't necessarily mean that he did not actually commit the crime. It only means that the prosecutor could not prove that he did beyond a reasonable doubt.

We almost always hear the sub-argument between God exists and God does not exist, so the other side of this may seem alien. While the former side pertains to Theism, this opposite side pertains to "Antitheism". The prefix "anti-" means "opposed to, or opposite". This side of the argument has a mirror structure, but this is not necessary to explain at this time in the debate.

In conclusion, when a person states "I believe that God does not exist", his statement is a positive claim stemming from the stance of Antitheism, NOT Atheism.
vi_spex

Con

possibilities are false, imaginary

you are talking about god can be true, what god can be, not what god is

god is false, false is imaginary

is it true for you to say that i am wearing a hat as you read this?

does religion exist, does belief exist, does lies exist?

religion comes from the mind, not from books

belief=false, as i dont know is true=be lie

you changed the scope in what you are saying, you said that, "The former *believes* that God exists while the latter *believes* that God does not exist", which revealss the atheist and the theistic position. but by existence you mean true, its not about existence, lies exist, so its about true or false

you can believe god exist, believe that god dosnt exist, or accept you dont know, the only 3 existing positions on any imaginary claim, any claim i dont know and i have memory of

atheism is defined as the negative position, that god isnt true, the your a lier position, disbelief

atheism is antitheism, disbelief

negative is anti positive, atheism is antithesim
Debate Round No. 2
Chaosism

Pro

Firstly, I shall respond to a couple of your points, specifically.

:: vi_spex said, "possibilities are false, imaginary"

All possibilities cannot be false, one possibility must be true. If a dog is charging towards you, snarling and bearing it teeth, it is a merely possibility that the dog will bite you, albeit, a strong one. It is also a possibility that the dog may be charging something that is behind you, instead. If you hold all possibilities as false, then you cannot act upon them.

:: vi_spex said, "religion comes from the mind, not from books"

This statement makes no sense. First, religion does come from books (i.e. Bible, Quran). Second, ALL books originate from the mind. Books are a compilation of ideas from the one or more minds.

-------------------------------------

Secondly, you have interpreted this argument incorrectly. Theism and atheism do NOT pertain to the TRUTH of whether God exists or not. Read the definitions (presented below) - they pertain to the BELIEF in the existence thereof.

Theism : Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. [1]

Atheism : Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. [1]

Before you react to that, I know that this doesn't coincide with your philosophy; we are playing on different fields. You claim to hold no beliefs, correct? Well, that I do not believe. You also have to realize that one can KNOW something and still be FALSE. Knowledge is not absolute; knowledge is belief beyond all doubt due to evidence and proof. If you have ever answered a math question incorrectly and then corrected, you should be able to understand this.

Agnosticism pertains to knowledge. In religious context, specifically, it is the belief that one cannot know of God's existence. It is quite possible to be an agnostic theist; one can believe that God exists, but also believes that no one can know the truth for certain.

Agnostic : A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. [1]

[1] Oxford Dictionary - http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
vi_spex

Con

possibilities are false, reality is not possible

in your example, i know a dog is charging me, i dont have to imagine that

books are not necessarily religious

it is about belief that god is true or false, not belief that god exist. as i said, false exist, religion is false

theism=belief
atheism=disbelief

the opposing positions on any imaginary claim

knowledge is the opposite of belief, knowledge is truth, and belief is false, know is true

know=absolute, i know you cant read these words on the screen with your eyes closed

agnosticism has nothing to do with knowledge as its a position on an imaginary claim, not about truth

agnostic=i accept i dont know

the agnostic position becomes specifik, as no one knows god is true, so the agnostic position becomes i accept i dont know

belief is theism

do you know that i am wearing a hat right now?

Debate Round No. 3
Chaosism

Pro

:: vi_spex said, "in your example, i know a dog is charging me, i dont have to imagine that"

But would you try to evade the dog? If you do, you are operating on the belief/possibility that it will bite you. You have to imagine it. As the dog is charging, if biting=belief=false & biting=possibility=false, what do you do?

:: vi_spex said, "it is about belief that god is true or false, not belief that god exist. as i said, false exist, religion is false"

And that is perfectly fine as your belief.

A lot of the following argument step from miscommunication as we have had before, specifically in definitions. There are no sources that back up your choice meaning of these words.

belief (1.1) : Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion. [1]
disbelief : Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real. [1]

:: vi_spex said, "the agnostic position becomes specifik, as no one knows god is true, so the agnostic position becomes i accept i dont know"

How could you possibly know that no one knows that God is true? There are many theist who will staunchly disagree with you; there are millions that say that they "know" God is true.

Your labels are irrelevant to others, because they only rely on *your* physical experience. To you, *I* have to be imagined, thus, I am false. To *me* I am true. Now, who is correct?

[1] Oxford Dictionary - http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...
vi_spex

Con

since its not a real situation.. i dont know what i would do, i dont know the dog or the situation

i have no beliefs

if any one knew god is true god would be true.

you are light on my screen and a story in my mind
Debate Round No. 4
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by GoOrDin 1 year ago
GoOrDin
"Disbelief in God" is the same thing as "Believing God is not".

learn how to read a dictionary
Posted by GoOrDin 1 year ago
GoOrDin
Belief God does not exist : Atheism.
Lack of belief in God: agnosticism.

Pro is a a fawked up piece of shitt who should stop debating.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
its all on you :)
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
this is... the lack of comprehension
Posted by Chaosism 1 year ago
Chaosism
"i dont see any communication probs.. just lack of arguments and comprehension"

In every debate you have participated in, you have used very different definitions to words than the other person. Regardless of which side is correct, there is a communication problem present. If two people say the same sentence, and come up with entirely different concepts, then there is a communication problem.

You use definitions to words that NO ONE else uses; you are speaking your own language. I have gone to significant effort to understand what you are saying, and I believe that I at least have a solid foothold on it. What you are arguing can make sense IF one understands YOUR custom definitions to your words. You have demonstrated a lack of ability to explain your thoughts in a rational way, i.e., virtually no one understands what your words and arguments are *intended* to mean.

communication problem = true
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
i dont see any communication probs.. just lack of arguments and comprehension

know is everything

false=imaginary=future

belief=imaginary

prediction=imaginary

kNow=now

future=on
now=is
past=off

ON=energy flowing
OFF=energy flow broken
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
belief is always false... it can at no point in existence... be true... ever

you are saying you know future
Posted by Chaosism 1 year ago
Chaosism
Most of this is a communication problem. When you say that a possibility is "false", are you meaning that it is "off" like a light switch? Are you basically residing in binary?

"that is the point... if you get hit by a car, its not a possibility.."

Belief and imagination are predictions of the future OR present. If God exists, he exists right now. You cannot possibly know that God doesn't exist unless you know everything (omniscient).

UNLESS you are referring to this is a binary tone, in which you mean that it is false, or "off", until it is true, or "on". Is this the case??
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
possibility having 2 sides, it can only be false..
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
vi_spex
its not like, you get hit and die and it can happen that you get hit by the car..
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Rosalie 1 year ago
Rosalie
Chaosismvi_spexTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro is the only one who really debated the topic. He came up with arguments and rebuttal's while Con just kept re-stating his own opinion.
Vote Placed by tejretics 1 year ago
tejretics
Chaosismvi_spexTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.