I believe that Superman, without a doubt, would beat Goku in a fight.
Debate Rounds (4)
1. No outside help (such as the Z fighters, or dragon balls.)
2. Let's say the battle ground is earth, but no humans to be harmed because of the battle.
3. Round 1 is to state your opinion and why you chose to support Goku. Rounds 2-3 are straight up debate. Round 4 is conclusions.
Please, no foul language. This is a friendly debate.
Now, I believe Superman is without a doubt, stronger, faster, and smarter than Goku. Superman has a list of amazing abilities. He is practically invincible. He has few weaknesses. I am eager for a response.
The mighty monkey god Goku, as defined by Dragon Ball Z Abridged, could adequately challenge for most canonical versions of Superman because Muffin Button.
This should be fun for everyone involved.
Let the debate begin.
Strength. On Grand Kai's planet (which is 10x earths gravity) Goku was shown lifting 40 tons (10 on each limb) so with the gravity increase, he was lifting 400 tons. Now let's calculate that with the 1 billion times increase for the end of GT and add the Super Saiyan multipliers. 400 billion tons x 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = 1,600,000,000,000,000 tons (1.6 quadrillion tons) This means that by the end of GT, Goku's final strength is 1.6 quadrillion tons.
Now for Superman's strength. In All-Star Superman, he was stated to being lifting 200 quintillion tons with just one arm. And since Goku got to use all of his limbs for the 40 ton feat, let's give Superman at least his other arm. That means he can lift 400 quintillion tons. (Superman stated that he dealt like he could lift niche more.) at base Superman can lift 66.6 quintillion tons. With a sundip, he can lift 400 quintillion tons at minimum.
Final result: Superman is vastly superior to Goku when it comes to strength. Goku's strongest form is still 416.25 times weaker than Superman's base. If you add sundipping then the Saiyan is 2500x weaker then the Man of Steel. That's a 2500x edge to Superman for one category. Superman 1 Goku 0
Durability. Dr. Gero's bomb made to kill Goku was said to be able to destroy the Earth and was calculated as TNT (so megatons) in the series. Wiz and Boomstick's calculation of this was flawless, putting the bombs output at 53,000,000,000,000,000 (53 quadrillion megatons). Let's multiply that by the apparent 1 billion times power level increase...This gives us 53,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (53 sextillion megatons). Now we add the Super Saiyan multipliers
53 sextillion x 2 x 4 x 10 = 21,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (21.2 septillion megatons) Goku can survive up to a 21.2 septillion megaton yield by the end of GT in Super Saiyan 4. That's 0.212% of the megaton yield of a Sun-sized supernova.
Now for Superman. He has survived an estimated 15 supernova sized blast (no sundip) But for arguments sake, I'll just say that base Superman can survive a single, Sun-sized supernova, which would produce a 10 octillion megaton yield.
Final Result: In the end, durability is another thing that Superman trumps Goku in. A base (no sundip) Superman can, at the very minimum, survive 10 octillion megatons. Goku, with the power level factoring of 1,000,000,000 and his Super Saiyan multipliers, still only falls in at 21.2 septillion. That's 471.70 times weaker than Superman's minimum. Superman 2 Goku 0.
Speed. Some Dbz fans were upset at the speed Goku was givin in the Death Battle, so once again I will add the 1 billion times increase and Super Saiyan increase. Goku flew straight over the curvy Snake way. Wiz and Boomstick calculated it to actually be 190,761 miles long, I'm going to use his speed of 6,800 mph to get across it in 28 hours. Now, let's multiply that by a billion for power level increase and then add the Super Saiyan multipliers. 6,800,000,000,000 mph (6.8 trillion mph) at base, 6.8 trillion x 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = 2,720,000,000,000,000 (2.72 quadrillion mph) in Super Saiyan 4. That translates to 4,055,968 times faster than the speed of light.
Superman. In the JLA comics, Batman says that Superman can perceive things happening with zeptosecond precision. Nanosecond = one billionth of a second. Zeptosecond = one sextillionth of a second. To save Lois Lane, he read and memorized every medical text ever published (a number ranging in the hundreds of thousands, each book anywhere from 500-5000 pages long) and performed surgery single-handedly with his heat vision to save her life...all in under five minutes. In All-Star Superman, the Man of Steel raced to Alpha Centauri and back within seconds just to pick flowers for Lois before she finished her sentence to him. Now, Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away from Earth. Superman went there and back (8.734 light years) in 20 seconds. If Superman traveled 8.734 light years, then he traveled 513,428,174,000,000 miles (513.4 trillion miles). If we divide that number by 20 (the time it took him to get there and back) then he was traveling at a speed of 25,671,409,000,000 miles per second (25.6 trillion miles per second). That's 92,417,072,400,000,000 miles per hour (92.4 quadrillion miles per hour). And that's 137,809,097 times the speed of light.
Final Result: So again, in the end, Superman is still so much faster than Goku. While this may be the one category that Goku's strongest form is faster than Superman's base, Superman becomes so much faster after sundipping that Goku wouldn't be able to keep up. With these calculations, Superman is 33.97 times faster than Goku when both are at max power. And before anyone says it, no, Instant Transmission does not count as speed. It's teleportation, plain and simple. Goku can't actually fight in Instant Tranmission. The only time he's ever done that was with Cooler, who was also using it. If he could fight in it with normal foes, don't you think he would have done that to Cell, Buu, Baby, Super 17, or Omega? Superman 3 Goku 0.
Now, some Dbz fans think that movement speed does not equal combat speed, Striking power or force is based on speed and mass. Superman can move at 137.8 million times the speed of light. And yes, that's movement speed, but his arms can travel the same speed, if not faster. Think about it for a second...how fast can you run? Maybe 10-12 miles an hour on a good day? That's average. Well you can throw a punch the same speed, if not faster. Muhammud Ali's punch was clocked at 20 mph and he was a heavyweight. Lightweights throw punches faster than that. Bruce Lee was said to be clocked at 60 mph...though that's up for debate.
Superman is much more intelligent, Goku never even learned how to drive. (Though a genious with martial arts)
Superman absolutely kills Goku in stamina. In a newer comic (ment to make his power not so god like) He was underground away from any contact to the sun bench pressing the weight of the world for 5 days straight, and only sweat 1 droplet. He has a wider range of powers/abilities.
Even after giving Goku a 1,000,000,000 times increase to his feats to compensate for power level/gravity increases and stacking his Super Saiyan multipliers onto that, Superman still comes out on top in every category.
The representation of Goku's strength, speed, and durability is an interesting feat of math for the sake of math. However, all of that argument is taken from Screwattack, and is rendered meaningless by the first minute of their YouTube video. Screwattack opens up with a good level of research that points out that the power levels are meaningless, and cited official canon that states that once they reached a point with Super Saiyans, their power levels became immeasurable. They then proceeded to contradict their own research, and measure something that was defined as immeasurable.
Abridged Goku has two clear weaknesses. The most lethal being a lifetime of eating too much bacon. The second is blowing up the planet or spaceship he's on before he can get to safety because he requires oxygen to breath. Arguably, Gero's bomb could kill him because it can blow up the planet. Just the planet he's standing on is enough. The bomb's not necessarily capable of destroying his body, and since it was never used to do so we don't even know if it could. When Cell kills him by blowing up it's because Goku transported him to a different planet, and without a Planet, or atmosphere he dies.
Another more intrinsic flaw in the math used to analyze both Superman, and Goku is revealed in my opponents example of Superman's trip to Alpha Centauri and back. The claim is that Superman flew at 1.4 X 10^8 of C, the Cosmological Constant, in our universe. If the All-Star Superman's Universe allows for time travel then the C in their universe could equal our universe's C. However, if it is time travel, he couldn't interact with any matter until he slowed down to less than C. Because my opponent is attempting to paint both as faster than C, then their fight can only occur at C, or less, unless it is a time travel fight in which paradoxes rules would probably prohibit any fight. Ironically, this explains why Goku doesn't fight at this speed very often.
An alternative is that C is much higher in the All-Star Superman Universe. If C equals 1 x 10^9 then Superman is only flying at 14 percent of C, and would be equal to the amount of energy needed to move at 14 percent of the Speed of Light in our universe. In other words, without knowing what C is in the alternate version of Superman's Universe it is impossible to compare. The same issue occurs with Goku's travel down Snake Way. Was the trip at 1 percent of his universe's C, was it 10 percent, or was it closer to 50 percent? We don't know because we don't know what C is for his universe.
Again, Superman lifting 1.8 x 10^23 Kilograms, as my opponent pointed out in All-Star Superman, causes another issue. Superman did this with just one hand. Let's assume the radius of his hand is 3 in, or 0.0762 m. Then assuming the gravitational constant is equal to ours. What is the force of gravity at Superman"s hand given the formula gravitational force=(G Constant x Mass)/Radius^2. If I've done the math correctly, mind you I have a fever right now of 99 degrees F, it should be 52 x 10^12 m/s^2, or much faster than our Cosmological constant. Had Superman done this in our universe the result would most likely have been a black hole. Since the solar system he was in didn't come crashing down into a black hole, I can only assume that their constants are not equal to our Constants. Meaning that direct comparisons are not possible without knowing what those constants really are.
These constants are more important than any raw math formula to compare Goku, and Superman, and here is why. If you were to accelerate a piece of matter to C it would require an infinite amount of energy to do so. If their C is different, but both are at or close to or at it then they both could be using the exact same amount of energy(infinite), but traveling at vastly different speeds. To put this in perspective. If you doubled C for our universe. For the same amount of energy you"d be able to go twice as fast as you can today.
The 15 Super Nova is also an exaggeration coming out of the mouth of a supervillain. Had the supervillain missed the result of even one supernova would have destroyed the solar system. Had Superman died unable to tank the full blow by even one supernova the solar system would have been destroyed. For the supervillain to even know that he could have that power he'd have had to test it by blowing up a few solar systems before. All we know is that Superman took the hit, and the moon is in one piece. The impracticality of such an attack being as powerful as a supernova, and it's lack of destruction leaves sufficient reason to believe it was nothing more exaggeration. Even Screwattack, the source for that data, suggests this possibility exists.
My opponent has not clearly stated which Superman he's arguing for. He's clearly using Screwattack's argument, and they claimed to be using the in continuity post crisis Superman. However, the data actually comes from All-Star Superman, and Superman vs The Elites. All-Star Superman is a 12 Issue Story to show all the qualities of Superman in their purest form, and ends with Superman's death from an overdose of solar energy. It is actually based on Silver Aged comics, and would be closest to a Pre-Crisis, or Silver Age Superman. The Elites is based on Action Comics #775 which is at least in pre-flashpoint continuity. This makes arguing over his intelligence difficult so I'll present a set of questions for my opponents next round before I dismantle his IQ.
Is the Death of Superman story with his fight with Doomsday a legitimate example of Superman?
Does Superman know how to fight, and if so how?
What specific examples do you have of Supermans Intelligence?
Is Superman vs the Elites an accurate example of Supermans morals?
Are you including, or excluding evil Red Sun, or Injustice Supermen?
I believe I have presented sufficient doubt in the raw numbers that my opponent has presented. Remember, I must only prove that my opponents claim that Superman would win without a doubt is false. If I can present reasonable doubt then my opponents claim if false.
Superman.24 forfeited this round.
Superman.24 forfeited this round.
However, since I will not use that argument, and I'll rather end this debate with the actual final conclusive argument to any of these. It's a bit underhanded, but since my opponent gave up I'll use it.
This argument is a summarization of Stan Lee's response to "Who would win?"
P1) Goku, and Superman are Fictional Characters
P2) What happens to Goku and Superman is entirely up to the Author
P3) Whoever wins in a fight between fictional characters is whoever that author wants to win
C1) If the author wants Goku to win then Goku can win
I was going to dismantle Superman, but this will do since my opponent gave up.
There is a clear reason in Superman canon that show that Goku would win, but why waste it on someone who won't argue?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
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