The Instigator
JonathanDJ
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Input
Con (against)
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I believe that the Cold War was largely the responsibility of the Soviet Union.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,066 times Debate No: 43434
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (15)
Votes (0)

 

JonathanDJ

Pro

I won't give too much away immediately. I believe that the Cold war started when Stalin and Hitler decided to divvy up eastern Europe.
Input

Con

"Germany's unforgivable crime before WW2 was its attempt to loosen its economy out of the world trade system and to build up an independent exchange system from which the world-finance couldn't profit anymore. ...We butchered the wrong pig."
-Winston Churchill (The Second World War - Bern, 1960)

Churchill's quote states it all.

The Western Allies (England & USA) wrongly ganged up and demolished Hitler's Germany instead of Stalin's Russia. Therefore the Western Allies had more knowledge.

And prior to the USA entering WW2, Germany was winning which spear-heads my point about the USA being the mechanism orchestrating the most responsibility.

What followed from 1949-1992 was the Cold War.

I accept and thank Pro for an excellent debate topic. I can loosely agree with Pro regarding the point at which the Cold War commenced (Hitler & Stalin dividing up Poland). But then one can reach back further toward the animosities of the Treaty of Versailles and the scathing relationship between Weimar Republic Germans and Bolshevik/Socialist/Communist Jews. And even earlier than that was the WW1 Alliances.

Going forward chronologically, I will extend my debate points (I think that is what it is called):
I believe that the Cold War was NOT largely the responsibility of the Soviet Union but a result of blunders by the other Allied countries during & post WW2 such as: NOT defeating the Red Army when it could; and the subsequent domino effect of Communism/Socialism moving and mushrooming into other parts of the globe like: China, Vietnam, Cuba.

Though this debate may seem to come down to ideologies: Capitalism (West) versus Communism (East), I contend that neither are the best resolution.

Concluding the intro: the USA, not USSR, which I deem more intelligent between the two, owns the lion share of responsibility for the Cold War.

Thank you. I return the debate back to Pro.
Debate Round No. 1
JonathanDJ

Pro

I think the Cold war was composed fundamentally of three initial ingredients: Stalin's paranoia which grew more and more powerful and dangerous over the years (1), the growing strength and presence of the NKVD later the KGB which manifested that paranoia(2) and Soviet expansion through military means. The US tried to show good faith in helping the Soviet Union during the Ukraine Famine(3). The US supplied the Soviet Union during the War(4). The US stuck to it's agreements about land given to the Soviet Union at Potsdam(4). The Soviet Union had no reason to be suspicious of the US.

In response to my counterparts arguments: We didn't go after anyone because we didn't start the war. GB was pulled into it with France after Hitler invaded Poland(5). He had been warned after violently subjugating other lands. The US only got involved through the Lend Lease act(6) and then after Pearl Harbor(7). The Western Allies never wanted that war. When Churchill was with the Admiralty he sent soldiers in to Russia to assist the White Russians to fight against the Bolsheviks(8). The ended up dead or in Gulags. So he did try to stop it. During this same time the Soviet Union helped it self to other peoples land through military threat(9). Showing the whole world that unlike Stalin's imagined enemies, he was a very real enemy.

1.http://www.pbs.org...
2.http://books.google.com...
3.http://www.enrs.eu...
4.http://en.wikipedia.org...
5.http://en.wikipedia.org...
6.http://www.ourdocuments.gov... (how'd you like that crap huh!! a real doc! orig. source material)
7.http://www.pearlharboroahu.com...
8.http://en.wikipedia.org...
9.http://en.wikipedia.org...
Input

Con

Thank you Pro for a quick & concise reply! Sorry mine isn't.

03Sept1939 GB was the one to declare war on Germany. Germany didn't want war with GB.[1] Russia had initially allied with Germany because Hitler didn't want Russia & France to ally (same technique Otto Von Bismarck used I believe). Germany later invaded Russia because he wanted the factories & raw materials for Germany.

Addressing Pro's points:

1.I concur that Stalin was paranoid. Why do you think he routinely "cleaned up his friend's list"?

a.The USA took all the brainiacs from Germany (Einstein was already in the US & helped developed the Atomic bomb). All Russia got were the geographical sites and work camps. The US pocketed a huge nest of German Nobel Prize winners (let's face, the Germans were smart guys) and had the upper-hand and thereby responsible for the Cold War. [2] Russia's turf had recently been torched & invaded. Of course Stalin was paranoid. Wartime propaganda rolled right into Cold War propaganda. Spy versus Spy. Germany had mad skills, cutting-edge aviation technology and the US got it. The whole US UFO craze started because the Germans had something like the Haunebu [3] aka flying saucers (don't ask me how I know this). What followed was a cornucopia of US ideas developed from comic book heroes like Superman, Captain America to Area 51 & the Space Race dawned. If I were Stalin, I might be paranoid too.

2.No contest with the strength and presence of the NKVD later the KGB, which was basically a government run mafia. Ruling through fear with Mokri Rabotat or Wet Work (mass killings) will keep any survivors in line but it does not foster patriotism and Russia's Cold War had countless defectors.

3.I WISH - "The US tried to show good faith in helping the Soviet Union during the Ukraine Famine" (forced famine of 1932-1933); Pro's cited reference does not illuminate such details. Sadly, there was NO help from the USA to the Kulaks, wealthy farmers during Stalin's genocide of them. Most of the foreign press corp yielded to the Soviet demand and either didn't cover the famine or wrote stories sympathetic to the official Soviet propaganda line that it didn't exist. Among those was Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times who sent one dispatch stating "...all talk of famine now is ridiculous." [4] What is more evil, committing the atrocity or covering it up?

The West clearly CHOSE to white wash and favor protecting the unleashed animal that was the USSR. The US is, again, responsible for driving that wedge between the West and the people in the USSR in the Cold War.

The Holodomor is prior to the Cold War, though I understand that you must be laying the ground work. **I'm pleased you know about the Holodomor, as my father comes from the province with the largest grouping of Ukrainians outside of the Ukraine: the wheat fields of Saskatchewan, Canada** [5]

4.Yes, The US supplied the Soviet Union during WW2 because they were allies. Without FDR's Lend-Lease Agreement, Russia's supplies would have shriveled up. The Red Army was spread thin when it got into Berlin. Once again the US had the upper-hand & is the one that can giveth or can take away. The one that gives is stronger than the one that takes, always.

5.Speaking of giving, the US (& GB) GAVE AWAY half of Europe to suffer under Communism for the next half century when Patton could have squashed the Red Army! [6] So, sticking "to its agreements about land given to the Soviet Union at Potsdam"" at the Yalta Conference, FDR, in February 4-11, 1945 and Truman at Potsdam, Germany (17July-02August1945) is a weak argument to show the US being golden.

WW2 was officially kicked off with the invasion of Poland by Germany and now Poland would be governed by the USSR. Not much changed for them. What is more wicked? The Allies would not allow Patton to beat the real enemy, Russia. More faults falls to the US.

5. Pearl Harbor is a debate by itself. The US didn't want war. FDR did. How does one cause a war yet look innocent? Cut off the oil supply to Japan. Have two other countries, in the area Dutch West Indies & British Trading Co (I believe) translate that the only co-ordinates that might fit the transmission intercepted is the newly moved naval fleet in Hawaii & ignore the warnings yet oddly move out your carriers....(yes, Oahu - I was stationed there for 3 yrs to include holding down the port during 9/11/2001 when everyone there thought they were going to get bombed again).

6.On a drastic & sobering note, A German woman wrote: "Better to have a Russian on your belly, than an American on your head." (Meaning better to be raped by the Soviets than have American pilots in the skies bombing your town like Dresden). [7] War seriously warps people. Greater responsibility lies with the US for the Cold War because even the German women didn't trust Americans over Soviets.

7.After a visit to ruined Berlin, Patton wrote his wife on July 21, 1945: "Berlin gave me the blues. We have destroyed what could have been a good race, and we are about to replace them with Mongolian savages. And all Europe will be communist. It's said that for the first week after they took it (Berlin), all women who ran were shot and those who did not were raped. I could have taken it (instead of the Soviets) had I been allowed." [6]

The problem that most people have with Patton is that he was RIGHT. Patton was awesome & he was assassinated.

By 1950 Stalin's mental and physical health had begun to deteriorate and he was absent from the Kremlin, the government headquarters in Moscow, for long periods of time. His subordinates were fearful of becoming victims of Stalin's growing paranoia, which manifested itself in plans for another purge"..Really who does keeps killing their people like that? Oh leaders who have less control. [8]

Okay, moving on, Stalin is dead, finally and Russia gets the Atomic bomb, August1953.

I guess we'll really get to the Cold War in the next couple of rounds.

Stay tuned for shoe-banging communication, "Antifascistischer Schutzwall," or "antifascist bulwark," against the West and Star Wars! I thank any reader and return the debate back to Pro.

1.http://www.history.com...
2.http://www.nobelprize.org...
3.http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
4.http://www.historyplace.com...
5.http://www.catholiceducation.org...
6.http://www.veteranstoday.com...
7.http://natgeotv.com...
8.http://www.pbs.org...
Debate Round No. 2
JonathanDJ

Pro

You did allot of damage to your own position in your response. You said "The West clearly CHOSE to white wash and favor protecting the unleashed animal that was the USSR." You say we covered for Stalin. And you say " US (& GB) GAVE AWAY half of Europe to suffer under Communism for the next half century" All you've proved here is that we proved that Stalin could walk all over us and we would take it lying down. These to points prove that Stalin had no right or reason to demonize us. We were a bunch of weaklings in how we dealt with him. He had no reason to think we were a threat. Everything we did showed him that he had the upper hand. We were no threat.

The race was on for Nazi scientists in all of the allied countries including the Soviet Union so this argument fails too. And we didn't take Einstein. He left Austria of his own accord because of Hitler. He was a Jew.
You ask a silly question. Why would a leader who has control keep killing his people? Probably because he was a fricking nut! The older he got the worse his paranoia got. When he died the NKVD was very powerful. A tradition of paranoia was now embedded in the Soviet government.

Perhaps the Soviets were engaged in a bit of projection. They were very aggressive in trying to take other peoples land. The eastern block countries were swallowed up etc. They also attacked China. I wonder what the Soviet's intentions were there? I'm not sure. In Vietnam and North Korea we didn't show up and try to liberalize those countries. Communists showed up and tired to violently take over those countries. We got worried and tried to stop them. The Soviets and the Chinese backed both of those movements. We weren't the aggressors the Communists were. Remember that. England and other western European countries on the other hand were in a long and ongoing process of liberating their colonies. They were doing the opposite of the Communists. Again, the Soviets had no reason to fear the western Europeans.

I would say that the first real "Shot" fired in the Cold War was the founding of the Berlin Wall. That wasn't our doing.
Input

Con

I thank Pro for his thought provoking rebuttal.

At that moment in time, Stalin's Red Army was weak; Patton: "I understand the situation. Their (the Soviet) supply system is inadequate to maintain them in a serious action such as I could put to them. They have chickens in the coop and cattle on the hoof " that's their supply system. They could probably maintain themselves in the type of fighting I could give them for five days. After that it would make no difference how many million men they have, and if you wanted Moscow I could give it to you."

Right, the US didn't kidnap Einstein. Einstein chose the US which was smarter and wielded more power between the two. And there were a lot of Jews in Bolshevik Russia so is not a valid argument because it's not as if he'd be alone in Russia. [1]

Getting on with the Cold War...
"A shadow has fallen across the scenes so lately lighted by Allied victory. From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent." In 1946 Churchill referred to the division of Europe, East and West, communist and capitalist.
Next was the Korean War 1950-1953. From Communist Russia, northern Korea became a communist satellite state & in the south a capitalist state. It proved impossible to reunite the country. It was Russia fighting through North Korea against the US through South Korea. A Cold War of fighting each other without fighting one another raged. The Western Allies had not killed the way of the Communists when they could have (referencing Patton). The Korean War also revealed that China could emerge as a third super-power in 1949. Communism was spreading.

Russia was buffering itself from the West.

Khrushchev started a de-Stalinization process in 1956 and wanted also to reduce the Cold War tension between the superpowers this process was known as the "thaw". Yes, Russia attempted to be kinder & protect itself. [2]

However in that same year Hungary wanted to break off from the Soviet Union and Khrushchev just couldn't allow that because it was part of its shield from the West. And the US chose not to go to Hungary's aid. The US protected the relations with the USSR rather than protect the weak. Eastern Europe could not trust either super-power. Subsequently, Hungary was assimilated back into the Communist fold with a new leader, Soviet style.

So commences the stock-piling of weapons and the attitude of "I am better than you" emerges as well as more tensions between Russia & the US.

One of the large black spots on the US was the U2 crisis where the US was caught spying on Russia, in Russia. [3]

And the US had the bomb and developed ICBMs first. [4]

The US maintained constant pressure in 1960, when a shoe-banging outburst was misconstrued as a nuclear threat.

        1. Khrushchev banged his shoe at the UN, stating "We will bury you." All one has to do is check out the Communist Manifest (only 25pgs) & it was interpreted incorrectly (though translated correctly), as Khrushchev admitted later a reference their Manifesto, true to Communist ilk; Chapter 1 of the Communist Manifesto: "What the bourgeoisie therefore produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable." Khrushchev repeated this Marxist thesis at a meeting with journalists in the US in September 1959. [5] However, many Americans falsely interpreted the quote as a nuclear threat. And Sting wrote a lovely song which only hyper-sensationalized the perceived threats. [6]

Pro can claim that was a clever cover-up attempt, but the problem is that NOW it makes sense and it is true to Communist form in their ideologies. We can now acknowledge that it was a over reaction by the US to construe that a nuclear attack.

I'm no friend to Communism but the USA really went overboard in the fear-mongering propaganda department. The US had the upper hand in arranging the Cold War.

Built 13Aug1961, the official purpose of Berlin Wall was to keep Western "fascists" from entering East Germany and undermining the socialist state. Pro claims it was the first "shot" fired in the Cold War but as one can plainly see there were plenty of "shots" fired prior to 1961. [7]
The Iron Curtain tried to hide the decadence of the West. The US seduces with goods ("Come on over East Berlin, we have a variety of cookies." - please note levity). Communism was indeed an obvious baddie but capitalism was the one controlling much of the economics behind the scene of the Cold War with cloak and dagger secrets, defections, bribery and black markets booming.

Fearful people threaten. Russia was fearful of the smarter and greater threat; the US had already proved that they would drop nuclear bombs on a civilization. The US didn't need to brag since it had already done it. Facta non verba, deeds not words cinched that deal.

Hindsight, IF Patton had crushed the Red Army in Moscow, and then the USA would NOT have had the Korea, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam or a Communist China to contend with because Communism would have been either obliterated and or at the very least, severely hampered before its inception. Granted, Marxism existed but Castro would not have looked to the USSR in their defense after the disastrous Bay of Pigs. [8]

Pro contends that the US wasn't the aggressors, but the Communists. Why then was President Kennedy willing to start a thermo-nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis, instigated by a Marxist Castro? It was Russia who backed down.

Therefore the USA is the most culpable of the Cold War and the wars aforementioned.

I thank the reader and return the debate back to Pro.

1. http://www.einstein-website.de...
2. http://www.johndclare.net...
3. http://www.history.com...
4. http://www.britannica.com...
5. http://www.gutenberg.org...
6. https://www.youtube.com...
7. http://www.history.com...
8. http://www.britannica.com...
Debate Round No. 3
JonathanDJ

Pro

JonathanDJ forfeited this round.
Input

Con

Extend all arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
JonathanDJ

Pro

Not to speak ill of the dead by Paton was a fool. The Soviet Union at it's weakest in 1941managed to recover and successfully fight back against Hitler despite his having the finest generals in the world and the finest equipment that WW2 produced. They had to face Heinz Wilhelm Guderian and the Panther and Tiger tank. There were 4 Generals each in control of more than one army. Paton wanted to take them on dispite the piece of junk known as the M-4 nicknamed the tinderbox because it ran on gasoline. It was a medium tank and it spent the war facing heavy tanks. It would have done so again, this time the t-34/85 and the IS or Joseph Stalin tank. He would have enjoyed zero support from the American public.

Einstein left Austria because Hitler was a vicious anti-Semite. Russia was frequently the scene of Pogroms and antisemitism. It was also desolate and poor. It's government was oppressive. The Korean war is further proof of the aggression of the Soviet Union against free people. We didn't pick that fight. Russia and China were almost always at each others throats after Stalin died so I don't know what you are talking about. The fact that we didn't go to Hungary's aid further demonstrates our non-aggressive stance toward the Soviet Union. We did everything in our power to prove that we didn't want war with the Soviet Union. As far as the bomb goes, Russia new as well as we did that the body count for trying to occupy Japan would be terrifying. We would have doubled our WW2 dead (1) and Japanese civilians would certainly have exceeded 1 million. Further more, Alger Hiss and the Rosenberg's according to Venona (2) gave the Soviet Union the bomb. So what the heck was there to worry about? We also know now that Soviet spies were all over the Roosevelt administration. So whose the aggressor here?
For the Soviet Union or you on their behalf to complain about U-2 is hypocritical in the extreme. The Soviet Union had an aggressive spy program. The Soviet Union flew a satellite named Sputnik over our heads, proving they could deliver a payload that far first. You are cherry picking history.
The Cuban missile crises was caused by the Soviet Union. We worked out a back door deal to defuse it with the Soviet Union but it did cost us actually. We had to give up a number of missiles we had in Turkey in exchange for the removal of the Cuban missiles. If it was instigated by Castro then what possible difference could the Soviet Union have made? They would have had no say so in the issue but they did have say so.
For fearful people the Soviets sure as heck weren't afraid to stick their heads out.
(1) http://www.pbs.org... I use Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf's numbers, 500,000 for our casualties. PBS says 280 thousand.
(2) http://www.nsa.gov...
Input

Con

I thank my esteemed opponent for a meaty debate.

The Cold War - who was more to blame the US or USSR for its causation and perpetuation?

I say the US. From the beginning, I say that the US held all the "smart" cards (almost all the Nobel Prize winners). With the USSR depleted of many smart people, dead or defection, the US was already positioned to be better situated for the coming Cold War.

"Stalin's fear of the USA led him to believe that the USSR needed a barrier of territory between Soviet territory & the USA's allies in Western Europe. Stalin feared another anti-communist invasion of Russia from Europe as had occurred in 1918 & 1941. Stalin wanted to create a barrier against the West, a barrier made up of communist run countries in Eastern Europe." [1]

Soviet controlled regions were held by the USSR's lesser intelligent hierarchy since Stalin purged (killed) his officers every so often. The USSR was weak & could not afford more war.

Isn't it interesting that people who know too much, are coincidentally killed?

Oh Sherlock, what do we say about coincidence?
The universe is rarely so lazy.

"Stalin wanted to make sure that those who knew too much about the purges would also be killed." [2]

Constantly killing people, who are under your command, tends to weaken your ability to command. And Stalin was the weaker of the two leaders in that regard.

When Soviet controlled Germany, hoisted the Berlin Wall, which was a protective measurement to guard against fascist Capitalism, it proved to be another USSR un-doing factor (not the brightest move); one cannot force people to be of a certain ideology. Black markets from the West seeped in the cracks. Spies spied on spies, infiltration of moles and sleepers into all parts of different stratospheres of both governments. Getting caught was the grievous sin as when in 1960 the US was caught spying in the USSR with the U2 spy plane piloted by a man name Powers. Premier Khrushchev demanded a full apology but President Eisenhower refused. So as a result, the US perpetuated worse relations between the superpowers. [1]

The US used to be friends with Cuba, remember "I Love Lucy" shows in black and white? Lucille Ball's husband was Cuban. [3] We bought Cuba's cash crop, sugar by the boat load. Then the US attempting to control more of that island in a failed coup; Fidel Castro learned that the US was an enemy in reality and looked to a bigger dog to back Cuba in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Between Kruschev and Kennedy, "Krushchev was not ready for any war." [4]

My opponent seeks to bring up different tanks in WW2 which are not as pertinent in this discussion though may warrant another debate. And in 1944, FDR, who had been voted into power an unprecedented four times, was undoubted surrounded by spies of all sorts.

The US controlled and orchestrated the machinations of the Cold War more than the lesser intelligent USSR ruling with an iron fist. Therefore the US is the most culpable for the Cold War.

Thank you.

1. http://www.johndclare.net...
2. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk...
3. http://marriage.about.com...

4. https://www.youtube.com...; 20 minute mark

Debate Round No. 5
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by JonathanDJ 3 years ago
JonathanDJ
One thing about the term "Dark Ages". It's actually an improper term as it was used before. Originally it amounted to a snotty insult from Enlightenment thinkers too people of the Medieval era. It's now used to mean the time period between the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD. and the beginning of Christendom.
Posted by Input 3 years ago
Input
Thank you so very much for all of those sources! :D
I'll be looking them up.
Please tell me what you think about Dr. Bill Warner who is more of a scientist rather than historian but gives a lovely lecture on the Dark Ages.
Posted by JonathanDJ 3 years ago
JonathanDJ
I don't despise you no. I like you. David Irving is unreliable because he's been demonstrated to be in the habit of lying. He used to be a good historian and researcher. Now he intentionally distorts things to suit his political leanings. He's no longer accepted or taken seriously by historians. I've been blessed in coming across allot of high class historians when I needed to study something. I study allot of things about my faith. For a long time people damned Christianity as evil and used the 100's of thousands of deaths in the Spanish Inquisition as evidence. There is a universally loved, recognized, and celebrated historian who is the leading expert on that subject. His name is Henry Kamen. He said that upon analysis the real number of deaths is between 2 and 3 thousand deaths. I'm also learning and gaining insight from one of the worlds greatest historians. On US History there are people like David Gaub McCullough though I'm not sure if I'd rank him with Kamen or not. There is also the late Stephen Ambrose. About the Holocaust my Sensei has been Saul Friedlander who is a superb writer on the Holocaust. On the Crusades I was lead to Christopher Tyerman by a YouTube channel called Real Crusades History. I love that channel. There is allot of nonsense that is politically motivated that is said about the Crusades against Christians that's pure nonsense. The channel discusses some of that. But Tyerman is the go to guy when it comes to academics about the Crusades. Another good Crusades historian is Thomas Madden. I wasn't blaming "Facts" BTW I was contesting them. I'm not at all sure that what you said was the facts. I was trying to track down who the guy was and where he was coming from on that stuff.
Posted by Input 3 years ago
Input
Hi Hi JonathanDJ! Right, I don't think I stated that Einstein invented the bomb. I agree with you that it was his formula which helped the team of scientists build the bomb eventually.
I happen to like the Historian David Irving, who is also a linguist (as many things get lost in translation or false cognates) because he goes to the root source for his history. I know he is not well received but then I don't care about popularity contests & look for truth. I do not approve of getting my history from Hollywood unlike most of the populace who adore the Marxist propaganda spewing forth.
If you don"t like one source I use, ask me for another one. I"ll respect your request.
But don't blame the facts or the figures for the figures being what they are & not adding up to what you want history to be. That then is the heart of debate, which person has a more convincing argument?
I"ll agree that I"m not very smooth at debating which is why I try to use my facts for arguing.
Up until the USSR de-classified docs in 1990, the Nazis were blamed for the Katyn Forest Massacre at the Nuremberg Trials. Yet the US only released more docs in 2012. Odd, right? Especially since the Germans brought in the International Red Cross at the time of the discovery.
In this debate, I only give more credit to the intelligence of the US than the intelligence of the USSR.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." --Napoleon Bonaparte
There is a lot of history that isn"t popular and therefore not taught. I could tell you a few things about Churchill & Reagan that might curl your hair.
If it makes you feel better, I misspelled Khrushchev twice at the end. And the Cold War is not my strong suit.
So, unless you completely despise me, we can have future debates.
Oh & yes, sorry about being the fan-girl for <3 Patton <3 but he was a better human by miles than Eisenhower & the only one Rommel respected. Cheers! :D
Posted by JonathanDJ 3 years ago
JonathanDJ
Oh, BTW, Einstein didn't invent the bomb or help build it. It was based on his formula E=MC2. He was involved in writing a letter to the president about taking serious action to make sure we could counter the Germans because they had Heisenberg.
Posted by JonathanDJ 3 years ago
JonathanDJ
I've got to say Input; I wonder if you even read my posts or you just skim them and move along to what you were going to say. The tanks discussion was part of a larger discussion that you forced on me! You kept bringing up Patton and his absurd claim that he could take down the Russians. Then you cite the John D. so and so for your source about the Cold war. I don't know who he is. I checked Google and the only think I could find was his website and his books. I went to Wiki and they didn't have a thing about him. At one point he is discussing WW2 and Hitler, and cites David Irving. I don't know what to make of that. That book was considered a good book by many however Irving is one of the slimiest neo nazi holocaust deniers in the world. So what other info does he get from him? Irving is known for being an apologist for Hitler. You bring up Stalin's purges, and you make more point for me once again!! Stalin was a vicious paranoid nut and the US had nothing to do with it. We sure as hell paid for it though. I mentioned the bevy of Soviet spies because it was hypocritical in the extreme for the Russians to demand an apology with all the crap they had and continued to pull. And they knew it. They stole the bomb from us for crying out loud.
Posted by Input 3 years ago
Input
@TheDilbater - *facepalm* I "assume" people knew that Einstein helped create the atom bomb for the US (as I knew to note Einstein & the Nobel Prize winners).
As a debater, I need to DRIVE the actual point HOME with that fact. Thank you TheDilbater for helping me state the obvious as I'm not the best debater, yet. I'm not sure that you are supposed to help til afterwards though.
Posted by TheDilbater 3 years ago
TheDilbater
I think it's the U.S.'s fault for inventing the atom bomb. It tears civilizations apart.
Posted by Input 3 years ago
Input
Correction: The Holodomor is prior to the Cold War is meant to read: The Holodomor is prior to WW2. Sorry about that. I did reference the years so you might have already deduced that. :)
I'm sorry it's so long. I cut it down by half before I posted it.
I'm working on cutting my responses even more.
Posted by JonathanDJ 3 years ago
JonathanDJ
Yeah, it caught me off guard. I think it was one of yours that started it.
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