The Instigator
fishing_007
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Pvt_Bowers
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points

I believe that the Latter-Day Saint religion is not from God.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/17/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 953 times Debate No: 6259
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (1)

 

fishing_007

Con

Either the LDS church is from God and I should adhere to it or it is a false religion and one should do away with it. I love my Latter-Day Saint friends and care for their souls or else I would never have wanted to start this. One of the most intriguing phrases in all of the New Testament that stands out in all of its richness is "the mystery of Christ." What is a mystery? It comes from the Greek word musterion. The word musterion is found 23 times in the New Testament. The specific context of the mystery used as the mystery of Christ is found 16 times within the new covenant. (Mk. 4:11; Rom. 11:25; 16:25; 1st Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:9; 3:3,4,9; 6:19; Col. 1:26, 27; 2:2; 4:3; 1st Tim. 3:9,16; Rev. 10:7) I The mystery is that only God foreknew what would occur in the future and reveal it to all mankind. Mankind did not know until it was revealed in Christ. A biblical definition of the mystery given by the apostle Paul would be found in Eph. 3:5-7 and 1st Tim. 3:16. The mystery was revealed to the whole world through His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the substance of the old covenant. He is the real thing! He is as John, His forerunner, described Him as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29). [Under the old law, you will remember that the Jews offered animal sacrifices to God for atonement for their sins (one of which was a lamb- Lev. 3:7; 4:32,35, etc.). ] He came to be completely obedient to the Law of Moses and to fulfill its types and shadows and prophecies concerning Him. (1st Pet. 2:21,22; Rom. 8:3,4; Heb. 10:1-10; Lk. 24:44,45). Paul the apostle describes the Law of Moses as a paidagogos. In Greco-Roman culture, a paidagogos was as Strong's lexical definition states: "a boy-leader, i.e. a servant whose office it was to take the children to school; (by implication, (figuratively) a tutor." Another definition taken from Thayer's lexicon is: "1) a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood."
This definition taken from its historical roots helps us to make more sense of what the Law's function was to do for us. It served as a leader whose full intent was to supervise and lead us to Christ. When you think about the Sabbath [as well as the Sabbatical year and the year of Jubilee] and its day of rest and purpose of redemption in Ex. 20:8 and Deut. 5:15, think about the spiritual rest and redemption from sin (Matt. 11:28-30; Lk. 13:10-17); as well as the eternal rest in heaven that Christ would provide in the future (Heb. 4). When you think about the tabernacle (Ex. 25-40), its beautiful furnishings that it was erected and built up from, and the duties that were carried out such as feast days and Yom Kippur [the Day of Atonement – Lev. 16], think about Deity and the true dwelling place He can share fellowship with His own special people (2nd Cor. 6:14-16). When you think about the redemption that old Israel was delivered from the hands of Pharoah and Egypt by the Almighty hand of God, you think about Christ deliverance of when lost people can come out of the lost world of sin and darkness and into the light of the glory and freedom in the church of Christ. There are a valuable hosts of other connections we could see between the types and shadows of the old covenant that are revealed in Christ as the substance of the New Testament. We know the mystery of Christ began when that star of Bethlehem shined over the moonlit hills of Judea in Matthew 1 & 2. When was the mystery completed? When did it finally come to its consummation? I believe the Bible reveals the answer in Rev. 10:5-7.
I truly believe that if we studied these verses and the whole context of the book of Revelation, we would discover that the whole thesis of this book is that God's people (the new Israel) would see the glorious victory triumphing over the persecuting powers of the Jews (old Israel) and the Romans. The mystery of God was finished and revealed when old Israel's beloved city Jerusalem was ransacked and destroyed by the Romans in A.D. 70 (Dan. 9:21-27; Joel 2:28-32). God had declared the destruction of the Jews in the old covenant numerous times in prophetic literature such as Zechariah 14. We can clearly see that the mystery of Christ was revealed from its start to finish the 1st century A.D. This brings me to the statements that I am about to make that will certainly put either one or the other on trial. The Bible is either full of lies or it is not. The BOM is either full of lies or it is not. They BOTH cannot be correct on this proposition. Let me explain. The Bible teaches on the mystery of Christ in Eph. 3:5 that it was "not revealed in other ages to the sons of men." Question: Who are the sons of men? There are two occurrences of this phrase: "the sons of men." There is Mark 3:28 and this passage. Obviously, Paul is referring to descendants of humanity in general. A valid point to offer is that Christ, the true and real substance, was not revealed in the Old Testament one iota to the ancestors of the Jews nor to the Gentiles since the phrase "the sons of men" encompass both groups. Nowhere will you find in the Old Testament anything of the real substance. You will find types and shadows, but not the substance. Now if you have ever sat down and read through the Book of Mormon you will see that at the bottom left-hand and right-hand corners, it will give you a chronological assessment of when those accounts took place. Some accounts range from all the way back to the tower of Babel (approx. 2000 B.C.) to the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon (586 B.C.) all the way to 400 A.D. If you will read books such as 1st Nephi, 2nd Nephi, Alma, and others, you will find there were prophets who were of the people of Nephi and Laman who descended from their father, Lehi, a JEW, "a son of men." These prophets were able to going into such discrete detail about the life of Christ. They revealed the substance of the identity of Jesus, fulfilling the Law of Moses, living a perfect life, dying on the cross, raising again the third day, and many other specific details of the life of our Lord. Let us take a look at a few examples (although there numerous examples that could be given, but for sake of space) in the BOM:
Mosiah 3:8 (124 B.C.) : And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
Alma 5:48 (83 B.C.): I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.
Hel. 5: 9 (30 B.C.) :O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.
God said that He did not reveal the mystery in other ages to the sons of men in the Bible, but God IS revealing the mystery of Christ to the Jewish prophets in America in the BOM. There is clearly a bonafide contradiction here. You cannot stand on middle ground. Either the Bible is right or the BOM is right, but you cannot have BOTH. Based on the evidence, I know that the Bible is true because of prophecy, scientific foreknowledge, etc. There is nothing in the BOM that shows me it is from God. There is no archaeological evidence, etc. for the BOM.
Pvt_Bowers

Pro

If the Bible is true then God is perfect, God does not lie, God does not make silly mistakes, God does not call false prophets, God would not set up a false church.

The beginning of Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saints, LDS, Mormons) began when a young boy named Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God the Father and Christ the Son in the flesh. The idea is astounding. Unfortunately for self proclaimed prophet Joseph Smith, chronology was not on his side: accounts of the First Vision (the name for the event in which Joseph Smith claimed to see God) ranged from 1831 to nearly 1850- not only that but there are umpteen different accounts, some in which he sees only God or Christ, others in which God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are all one figure, a complete counter of of Mormon doctrine (Article of Faith #1).
http://www.mrm.org...

Not only was time a problem for Mormonism but so has getting legitimate documents. The Kinderhook Plates were presented to Smith by a couple of farmers who claimed they found them buried in ground. After inspecting the plates the Smith declared them a historical account of a descendant of Pharaoh who traveled to the America's. The farmers then stated that they had forged the plates in an effort to fool Smith.
http://utlm.org...
This is not an isolated incident. Recently a man by the name of Mark Hoffman, born and raised in Utah, forged and sold (non)valuable documents to the LDS Church through its prophet Gordon B. Hinckley. These documents included the Anthon Transcript (a translation of part of the King James Bible), the Salamander Letter (a letter in which Smith confesses to money digging) and was planning on forging entire series of books. One of Hoffman's inside men became afraid of what he was doing, talked, and was murdered by Hoffman in an attempt to keep his secret. Hoffman was then found out and then tried for murder.
http://www.mormoninformation.com...

While murder seems like a rather heinous crime it is nothing compared to a massacre. In 1857, the Mormon Militia killed over 100 California bound settlers in Mountain Meadow's (conveniently located about thirty minutes from my house). The militia was dressed up as Native Americans. The settlers were killed in cold blood. A massacre led by high ranking officials of the LDS church.

But why just look at the history of the religion, let's take a look at their text. The Book of Mormon.

The BoM was allegedly translated from plates that were revealed to Joseph Smith by the Angel Moroni. There are two significant versions of the translation: the one the church teaches and the one journals give us. The church teaches that God gave Joseph a translating breastplate with glasses to do the work (called the Urim and Thummim) and the other says that Joseph Smith used his Seer Stones (a pair of rocks) that he had for other purposes (treasure hunting) by putting them in his hat and being inspired with the words. Keep in mind, the plates the angel gave him were oft not even in the same room as Smith while they were being translated, why they were needed but never allowed to be seen, I dunno.

Translation aside the content of the book itself talks about a people from Jerusalem who emigrated to North America and lived as a successful people for thousands of years, thousands of years before Columbus, even starting 600 B.C.. This account mentions horses, chariots and elephants- non of which existed at the time the records take place. Minor historical flaw.

The book has also had over 3,000 changes, while most of them being simple spelling, grammar and layout changes (something a perfect book shouldn't need) it also includes sevral doctrinal changes (i.e. 2) First Book of Nephi, p.25 (1830): "Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh." Today: 1 Nephi 11:18: "...is the mother of the Son of God."). For a complete list: http://www.saintsalive.com...

My opponent has set up the next part for me. He stated that there is a clear difference between the BoM and the O&NT (old and new testament). True. He quoted many a BoM verse that talk about things that happen in the Bible. True, the BoM does reference the Bible. What needs to be realize is that the BoM is built around the O&NT and that many, many people speak about Christ and even claim to be Christ, but if the facts do not stand in their favor and if the Bible is true and God is perfect, they are not of God.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
fishing_007

Con

Dear friends,
I made a mistake and I am going to state that I was with my Contender. I kinda laughed at it that we were both arguing the same points. So I am going to start another debate and this time make things right. Sorry about the confusion.
Pvt_Bowers

Pro

Pvt_Bowers forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
fishing_007

Con

fishing_007 forfeited this round.
Pvt_Bowers

Pro

Pvt_Bowers forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
fishing_007

Con

fishing_007 forfeited this round.
Pvt_Bowers

Pro

Pvt_Bowers forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
fishing_007

Con

fishing_007 forfeited this round.
Pvt_Bowers

Pro

Pvt_Bowers forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Rolyatleahcim 8 years ago
Rolyatleahcim
If god is, than everything is from god silly.
Posted by fishing_007 8 years ago
fishing_007
Unfortunately, I had to fit all of the argument in what I had to say without going over 8000 characters. I did my best in putting everything that I knew that I could in a short format. Sorry for the format as well.
Posted by fishing_007 8 years ago
fishing_007
Dear friends,
I admit that I made a mistake and didn't realize it until I finalized it. I wanted to change my stance to "For." I am sorry for the massive confusion. Would y'all mind if we started the debate over again and did it right this time? Sorry about that. My mistake.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
Based on R1, both debator's agree...lolz.
I blame the way fishing_007 set this debate up. It set up this disaster.
The resolution is that "I (fishing_007) believe that the LDS religion is not from God."
Because fishing_007 is con, he does not believe that he "believe(s) that the LDS religion is not from God". So, he is trying to prove that he believes that the LDS religion is from God.
PRO must prove that CON believes "that the LDS religion is not from God."

So, this is a semantics fail. The fail is uber. Only two nubs could produce such a fail.
Posted by josh_42 8 years ago
josh_42
it was more like a speech then an argument.
Posted by knick-knack 8 years ago
knick-knack
*ditto* My bad.
Posted by knick-knack 8 years ago
knick-knack
Dido to the Italian man. It was very hard to read.
Posted by wjmelements 8 years ago
wjmelements
"I bleive that the Latter-Day Saint religion is not from God."
It is quite evident that you do believe it is from God. Check your arguments. you have lost this debate, nub.
Posted by theitalianstallion 8 years ago
theitalianstallion
Next time, break your argument up; it is very disorienting in the format you currently are using.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by thisoneguy 8 years ago
thisoneguy
fishing_007Pvt_BowersTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
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Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07