The Instigator
HandsOff
Pro (for)
Winning
35 Points
The Contender
Extempjordan
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

I believe the silent majority is closer to the libertarian party than to any other.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/28/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,796 times Debate No: 4259
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (13)

 

HandsOff

Pro

I believe most republicans and democrats are ideologically closer to libertarians than they are to their own parties-- mainly because most people in both parties are not as irrational as their opponents assume. Most sensible democrats I speak with are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. They are not for creating a welfare state, but for helping people only when they cannot help themselves. Most democrats aren't for socialism, but freedom of lifestyle.

Most republicans I speak with are also fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Only the fringe religious right want to tell you who you can marry and what you can smoke. Most conservatives aren't for telling you what you can do in your bedroom, but for keeping government small, taxes low, and spending under control. That's why they are so frustrated with the current administration.

If everyone voted their beliefs instead of their parties, I believe the Libertarians would be able to take at least half from each party. "Stay out of my personal life AND out of my wallet" is the only position consistent with personal freedom. I believe it resonates with most democrats and most republicans.
Extempjordan

Con

I am not a policy debater, also I would like to thank my opponent.

The way I see it is that in a way you could be correct but no, i do not agree with that as the libertarian party seems more like a splinter of the independent party in this sense. Truth is when you say the party, you seem to be generalizing the American populace in these party's as well as the representatives.

The american populace more or less focuses on the major planks, while then representatives the less major planks. I can agree as far as democrats, except that the libertarian party is far more into individual liberties to the point of anarchy.

Democrats differ on the planks mainly economically. Other than that I can agree that they could take a vast majority of the democratic party if not for that. That is why we have the political philosophy of a libertarian democrat.

Republicans however differ very much on basically every issue against democrats except on federalism, and the right to bear arms.

Honestly here it comes down to republican vs. Conservative Democrats.

http://www.lp.org...
Debate Round No. 1
HandsOff

Pro

"seem to be generalizing the American populace in these party's as well as the representatives."

Absolutely. This debate will be based almost completely on generalizations, since we don't have a study to cite and can agree that most members of each party are not accurately represented by the fringe fanatics and their elected officials.

"I can agree as far as democrats"

Good. So I need only to convince you that most republicans could care less about your private life. Again, no pole to cite, but in my experience most republicans do not care about your personal life choices. It is only the religious right that wants to restrict your life-style choices. Keep in mind, republican representatives (just as democratic representatives) are not a good representation of what most in the party believe. Unfortunately the representatives of each party are elected by the most vocal and most-likely-to-vote of each party.

I believe the republicans of today closely resemble the democrats of the 50s & 60s on fiscal policy and social programs. They want low taxes, efficient government, and self-reliance among citizens. It is republican representatives (again elected mostly by the fringe) who give the republicans the bad rap. I believe the silent majority of democrats also resemble the democrats yesteryear. It is their representatives (elected by the most politically active of the party) that come off as so ridiculously socialist they would have JFK & FDR both spinning in their graves.

"the libertarian party is far more into individual liberties to the point of anarchy."

Not so. We are for minimal government, low taxes, and help for the TRULY needy. Not much different than most sensible republicans and democrats. There is already a name for those who believe in anarchy. They are called anarchists. Calling libertarians anarchists is like calling liberals communists. Libertarians have no problem keeping this country exactly how our founding father would have intended it if they were here today. Do you honestly think the framers of our constitution envisioned half of each citizens earning being confiscated by taxation, out-of-control spending on war and social programs, and multi-trillion dollar budget deficits? Our founding father were certainly not anarchists, but believe in very limited government.

"Democrats differ on the planks mainly economically.... That is why we have the political philosophy of a libertarian democrat."

My point exactly. There are also many libertarian republicans who just don't label themselves as such because they are focused primarily on the economic policies the republican party preaches (yet does not practice). They group themselves in with the republican herd and voice no other distinctions-- primarily because they are just happy they are not the socialists they wrongly believe most democrats to be.

"Honestly here it comes down to republican vs. Conservative Democrats."

I think it comes down to fiscally conservative democrats and socially liberal republicans taking a stand for freedom across the entire spectrum of issues. They are not much different. Both believe in fiscal responsibility, low taxes, minimal government and putting an end to government telling individuals how to live their lives. These "libertarian" democrats and republicans have much more in common with one another than they do with the fringe of their own parties.
Extempjordan

Con

Alright you have brought up many major points.

The thing is since you are indeed basing this entire argument around generilizations your right it comes down to a point of not needing sources and a entire debate of hasty generilizations. If we are going to that point then it is that all liberatarians could not take the republican vote due to that with experience libertarians focus more importantly on major issues in a heriarchy rather than what is important and what is not. If we voted directly on beliefs then we have to go into what do libertarians belive. What is directly important to libertarians. In your first argument

"Most republicans I speak with are also fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Only the fringe religious right want to tell you who you can marry and what you can smoke. Most conservatives aren't for telling you what you can do in your bedroom, but for keeping government small, taxes low, and spending under control. That's why they are so frustrated with the current administration."

We can assume this is a hasty generilisation just as well since you are interpreting what is important to republicans and there beliefs. This just as well works in libertarian belifs due to they must have a set of beliefs to take votes away from the two parties. Well then you have a proven point since is it not the purpose of a third party to take away votes from the major parties. Since you stated that

"If everyone voted their beliefs instead of their parties, I believe the Libertarians would be able to take at least half from each party."

Well then are we simply debating conservative vs liberal. In this turn instead of democrat vs republican vs liberatarian are we not simply debating conservative vs liberal vs moderate? As shown people do vote based on these beliefs and as opposed to a liberatrian in the senate we have another "moderate" party known as independents. So in turn if we voted this way as opposed to votes being taken from major parties to libratarians then would isnt the idea of libertarians loosing all votes to the major parties equally realistic?
Debate Round No. 2
HandsOff

Pro

Firstly, you will not be successful brushing off my entire argument by accusing me of using "hasty generalizations." Not all generalization are hasty, but you have used them together repeatedly as though they are inseparable.

You mentioned the independent party might compete with the libertarian party, but that party is not known (even by hasty generalization) to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. The libertarians are known generally (there's that word) to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. For this reason alone the libertarian party would be the most suitable home for dems and republicans with similar views. Many of these types of voters already do consider themselves moderates because they aren't buying the ideas of the radicals in their own parties. There is a large piece of common ground among these types of voters in each party, that could be exploited to get this country moving in the right direction again.
Extempjordan

Con

Extempjordan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
DISREGARD PREVIOUS POST.

Lwerd,

"Libertarian ideals will almost always side with Republican nominees, because let's face it: money talks."

Money does talk. But to libertarians some things are more important than money-- like not becoming a socialist country. Also, we don't think the republican party is as harmful as many liberals do-- with the exception of their war mongering. The religious radicals in the republican party have been pretty ineffective in limiting personal freedoms. They failed to outlawed abortion, gay people can get married if want to, you can carry a bit of pot on you legally, etc. And lifestyle restrictions are only getting looser with time.

Socialist radicals in the democratic party, on the other hand, have actually convince the majority of the party's members that socialism is a good thing!!! The USA is actually on the verge of becoming a socialist country!!! "How radical is that?" you ask. Not even JFK or FDR would have been on board with this one. If that isn't evidence that the radicals have been successful in brainwashing the democratic party, then I don' know what is. If the republicans nominated someone who campaigned to outlaw tobacco, porn, alcohol and gays altogether, I would at least admit the party had been taken over by the religious radicals. But the brainwashing in the democratic party has been so slow and incremental over time, they cannot take a balcony seat and see what has happened.

Libertarians have two main enemies-- the thieves of money & personal property and the thieves of personal liberty. Only one of these enemies requires our immediate attention. We have to put out fires as they arise.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
Lwerd,

"Libertarian ideals will almost always side with Republican nominees, because let's face it: money talks."

Money does talk. But libertarians some things are more important than money-- like not becoming a socialist country. Also, we don't think the republican party is as harmful as many liberals do-- with the exception of their war mongering. The religious radicals in the republican party have been pretty ineffective in limiting personal freedoms. They failed to outlawed abortion, gay people can get married if want to, you can carry a bit of pot on you legally, etc. And lifestyle restrictions are only getting looser with time.

Socialist radicals in the democratic party have actually convince the majority of the parties members that socialism is a good thing!!! The USA may is actually on the verge of becoming a socialist country!!! "How radical is that?" you ask. Not even JFK or FDR would have been on board with this one. If that isn't evidence that the radicals have been brainwashed the democratic party, I don' know what is. If the republicans nominated someone who campaigned to outlaw tobacco, porn, alcohol and gays altogether, I would at least admit the party had been taken over by the religious radicals. But the brainwashing in the democratic party has been so incremental over time, they cannot take a balcony seat and see what has happened.

Libertarians have two main enemies-- the thieves of money & personal property and the thieves of personal liberty. Only one of these enemies requires our immediate attention. We have to put out fires as they arise.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
Hey, nice lift. But I will stand by that, because my comment clearly states the universal health care crowd falls short of communism-- if only from their lack of consistent reasoning. They would need to support the socialization of ALL life's necessities (which would be the case if they carried the UHC argument out to its logical ends) in order for the U.S. to resemble a communist regime.
Regime was probably not a good word since this would be voluntary communism imposed by 51% of the country. Imagine that-- communism by choice. We've come a long way.
Posted by Danielle 8 years ago
Danielle
In This Debate:

"Calling libertarians anarchists is like calling liberals communists." -- HO

In Our Debate:

"If universal health care crowd [i.e. liberals] were capable of being a little more consistent, they'd be communists." -- HO

;)

Anyway, I agree with Pro's reasoning in this debate, but like myself HandsOff lives in a very blue state (California -- I'm in New York). I'm sure that his Republican friends have smart ideas based on economics; however, unfortunately that is not the case for the rest of the country. No polls or factual evidence was used in this debate (as was the intention of the instigator), but I'd be willing to bet good money that more than half of the Republicans vote based on issues regarding: abortion, the death penalty, stem cell research, gun rights, religion, illegal immigration, and the war in Iraq (though not in an economic sense). If that were not the case, why would politicians play up the roles of being good Christians, for example? They are going to give the public (voters) what they want, and the majority of Republicans are not only fiscally conservative but socially conservative as well.

Republicans in blue states are usually fiscally conservative and socially liberal -- not so with the rest of the country. Libertarians will only gain speed in the upcoming generations since it's so popular today amongst college students and whatnot. However if it doesn't attain popularity, those with Libertarian ideals will almost always side with Republican nominees, because let's face it: money talks.
Posted by HandsOff 8 years ago
HandsOff
Capitalism, entrepreneurship, hard work and self-reliance were responsible for building the most powerful nation in the world in less than 200 years-- while the socialists stood by in disbelief. Now capitalism is a dirty word, and we are judged on how many dependents we can create and care for. Wow! What time can do to entire country's values.
Posted by Rob1Billion 8 years ago
Rob1Billion
I believe he uses the term "handsoff" to endorse his extremist capitalistic ideals... I would vote for a third party candidate for sure this election but I am scared that they might just absorb the dem vote and then we have another scumbag republican up there promoting the war on terror and the war on drugs and the war on homosexuals and the war on mexicans! Voting is a risky game indeed...
Posted by Jamcke 8 years ago
Jamcke
This is a very astute observation HandsOff. I affirm. There are some who would have the people of this country believe that everything is black and white because it's beneficial for both the Republican and Democratic parties if we all buy into that concept. Truth is, there's much more gray area in between, and I think the Libertarian Party appeals more to American beliefs / values than the Republican or Democratic parties do. Good show.
Posted by Jamcke 8 years ago
Jamcke
s0m31john: Apparently, there's a major difference between what you feel is out of your personal life and out of your wallet, because Obama will not significantly reduce out of control government spending / bureaucracy or do anything to restore our personal freedoms to that which the founding fathers of this country intended for its citizens.
Posted by s0m31john 8 years ago
s0m31john
"Keep your hands off my wallet and my body!"

Yeah, because Obama is going to do that.
Posted by libertarian 9 years ago
libertarian
Good luck, HandsOff!
I'll still vote for the better debater.
But LET'S GO LP!!!
And HandsOff as yet is the better debater by far. The other guy doesn't even know what he's talking about and HandsOff is calling him on that!

Keep your hands off my wallet and my body!
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