The Instigator
revleader5
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
SocialistRI82
Con (against)
Winning
30 Points

I can prove Ron Paul is better than your favorite candidate for president.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/23/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,309 times Debate No: 879
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (14)

 

revleader5

Pro

This debate is 4 rounds long. In the first round just tell me who you support and a TINY bit about them.

I obviously support Ron Paul. Dr.Paul has delivered more than 4000 babies. He is against letting businesses get away with crimes just for donating. He has only gotton private donations so far, which is the only kind he wants. He has had 123,000+ donators. He has raised more than $18 million, $6 million and $4 million being in single days.
SocialistRI82

Con

I am supporting Socialist Party USA candidate Brian P. Moore. Since you probably have never even heard of him, I will let you know where he stands on the issues.
I'll start with the issue that is on all Americans minds, the Iraq War. His stance on this war is very clear. Get the troops out and bring them home. The first argument normally used is that there will be chaos if we leave, and many people will die. However Moore combats this issue by getting to the root cause of the conflicts, our allegiance with Israel, our occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan, and our "prisons" in Cuba and abroad. By calling for Israel to end their occupation of Palestine, and cutting Israel's aid as a condition of peace we will be eliminating a huge part of our foreign policy issues in the middle east. By removing our own occupying forces from Iraq/Afghanistan, and our "prisons" we will be eliminating many of the recruitment tools that terrorists are using. He stands alone on these issues. No other candidate would dare to speak the truth many Americans know.
Another area I feel he differs with Paul is with regards to economics. He's calling for the withdrawal of the U.S. from NAFTA, CQAFTA, and FTAA. He also advocates worker and community ownership and control of corporations. Thus ending the ownership from controlling all the profits, and ensuring equal profit distribution. He is the only candidate to call for a $15 minimum wage. A wage which would enable all Americans to have a livable income. He supports full funding for arts and culture, universal education, single payer health system. In other words a socialized health care system. He recognizes the right of all people to high quality, low cost housing. He plans to fund these initiatives through reducing the military budget by 50%, and removing all troops from foreign duty stations. He calls for the same benefits for full and part-time workers, a 30 hour work week with six weeks annual paid vacation.
Now we will look at the area of largest disagreement, immigration. Moore seeks to give equal rights to all immigrants and recognize their presence in large part is due to unfair U.S. economic policies toward their countries, war, famine, or bad human conditions. He even goes further by giving sanctuary to illegal immigrants in the U.S., full social services and impact immigration influx not with walls or guns or threats of imprisonment, but with fairer policies toward all other countries to enable their economies to thrive and expand as well. This is a better stance for America, and the world at large. A stance in fact shared by no other candidate.
Finally I will point to the stances which I believe are needed immediately for this country. He calls for the abolishment of the CIA, NSA, Homeland Security Agency and all other covert warfare institutions. He calls for an international treaty outlawing all weapons of mass destruction. He calls for an end to U.S. arms sales in world. He also calls for a constitutional amendment requiring binding vote of people on all issues of war or military intervention. He realizes that we can no longer stretch our countries resources thin in pursuit of corporate profits, and to maintaining our status as a super-power. He recognizes our position as a super-power, and our ability to greatly influence the future of our country and the world.
I feel strongly that Moore is a man ahead of his time. A man who sees better, and knows we can achieve it. Paul has many positive ideas as well, though he falls short in almost every category I have mentioned above. He is not willing to go all the way with his ideas. That is why I feel Moore would be a better president.
Debate Round No. 1
revleader5

Pro

Actually, I do know who Brian P. Moore is. I keep tabs on all candidates from every party, including 3rd parties. I will not debate you on how he probably won't be elected.

Ron Paul's stance on the Iraq war and Israel is pretty much the same. The only thing I haven't heard Dr.Paul say is that removing the prisons from Iraq will cut off the recruitment tools to the terrorists. Please explain that further.

Economic situation- a $15 minimum wage would definitley be livable for everyone, but thi would inflate prices for everything like a balloon! Companies paying less than that right now would have to shoot their prices up, thus causing the minimum wage workers to again be in turmoil, and people who already had $15+ an hour would also be in some trouble if their pay didn't rise.

Immigration- Ron Paul obviously is very different from Moore on this subject. Dr.Paul wants to build a fence. Letting immigrants in constantly without a care in the world would also destroy our economy. They would take thousands upon thousands of jobs from us. This is why we need controlled immigration. We're already at 300 million+ citizens, it's not like we're lonely here.

Military- Dr.Paul lives by the constitution, he also demands votes on military acts. He doesn't however, want to destroy the CIA, Homeland Security, etc. Not everyone in the world is kind. I used to hang out with a socialist senate candidate's son. He thought that letting everyone into the country was a great thing. He acted like nobody in the world hated our country's guts and wanted to bomb the crap out of it.

I would like to know your candidate's stances on the following.

Federal Reserve- it is a quasi-public company. It is partially private. Ron Paul wants to destroy it and make a government owned Federal Reserve.

IRS- it is a completely private company. It has been accused of being a Puertorican Trust, although never proven. Ron Paul never said it was a puerto rican trust, but he did say it is private and needed to be destroyed.

Education System- Ron Paul hates the American education system. In the 1800s, when parents paid teachers directly, and the government had no part in schools, the literacy rate was at 98%. Now we've fallen to 70-80%.

Gun Ownership- Dr.Paul believes in the right to bear arms if not an ex-felon.

Qualifications- Texas represenative.
SocialistRI82

Con

With regards to the terrorism issue, you asked me to explain how he plans to reduce the recruitment tools of the terrorists. Lets us start by examining the 3 major recruitment tools being used by the terrorists.
1.Our undying support for Israel
2.Our occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan
3.Our treatment of detainees (or better our LACK of treatment)
Moore explains that through addressing these three issues we can successfully bring down (over time) the presence of terrorism against of country. By addressing these issues he means that we should get Israel out of Palestine, pull out of the middle east, and criminally try those detainees who have committed a crime, and release the rest. What argument can Bin Laden make to suicide bombers then?

Now on to the immigration issue. I had a feeling you would attack me on this point. Lets face the fact that we have an estimated 11 million immigrants here illegally. I don't see how a fence will address that issue. If you build a fence they will go under or over it. Put up a wall, and the same result will occur. These people are here whether we like it or not. Most of them have to be making some kind of money which leads me to believe they are working. Imagine if we could incorporate these people LEGALLY into our workforce. The problem with our current system is that there is no incentive for companies who hire these people to expand. They pay these people below minimum wage, without any benefits at all. They are maximizing there profits through the exploitation or these workers. You are right in that they are taking work away from American workers. This is not the fault of the immigrant. Many people are quick to blame the workers for this. Let us examine the companies (agriculture/labor) who are not being pursued by the government for their illegal acts. Moore feels that rather than spending billions of dollars to fight the immigrants that we should better use that money to expand our domestic programs. He does not advocate immediate citizenship for them, however he does wish to get them access to our social programs. Instead of us turning the blind eye to "under the table wages" he wants these people on the books and paying there taxes. This will expand our tax base and over time increase our tax revenues. Simply put Paul's vision for this issue is static and ineffective. It reminds me of pre-WWII France and there Maginot Line. It is an arbitrary solution which will further waste money and have no positive effect on our country. In fact it will divide us further and accomplish nothing. Paul's policy on immigration is flawed and will fail.

Finally with regards to the issue of the military, CIA, etc., etc. Moore does recognize the fact that we are a target of fanatical groups. He does not believe that clandestine organizations like the CIA, and others are the way to combat it. He views these institutions as wasteful, and unnecessary. A single body of intelligence would be better to combat these issues. One that is transparent, and actually held to the laws. I need not bring your attention to all of the "scandals" which have discredited these organizations. He feels they are wasteful, and uneeded.

Federal Reserve- Moore wants the government to take over, so as to be better able to control the intrest rates, and the economy in general.

IRS- Another institution which Moore has stressed must go. Again he wants a reformed state run institution which will more efficiently gather the states tax revenues, and go after the evaders/frauds. So on this issue Paul and Moore seem to see eye to eye.

Education System- Moore does not agree at all with what you have argued in that the system should somehow be parentally funded. With the 50% military budget cuts, the removal of the wasteful institutions, and the end of the occupation of foreign soil, Moore plans to fund all education through the government. That is also to include college and vocational schools. He recognizes the obvious flaws and failures of our current system.

Gun Ownership- In agreement with Paul in that felons, and violent criminals lose the right upon conviction.

Qualifications- This is from his website, it will further your understanding of where he is coming from.
Brian holds a Masters Degree in Public Administration (MPA) from Arizona State University. He served in the U.S. Peace Corps for an additional three years in Latin America and speaks Spanish.

The candidate's professional background also includes almost 20 years in the HMO/ Managed Care industry as a Marketing and Executive Director, Project Administrator and Consultant. He has worked for group practices and Individual Physician Group HMO's, both in the startup and operational phases. Sponsors and/or owners of the health plans and systems he worked for include physicians, hospitals, consumer groups, labor unions, entrepreneurs, universities, medical schools and governments.

Internationally, Brian has been involved in community development, reconstruction and infrastructure rehabilitation projects (housing, water, electricity & sewage) in the developing and resource deprived countries of Panama, Peru and Ecuador. He managed, developed and implemented new projects, recruited, directed and supervised local staff, raised private sector funding and monitored and planned all program-related activities.

For over five years he designed and implemented programs for public health projects (vaccination & health education) in Latin America (Brazil, Guatemala, Colombia, Dominican Republic & Mexico) in coordination with and on behalf of private corporations, religious institutions and non-governmental organizations. The projects were responsible for de-worming over one million children in low-income areas. The candidate has also traveled extensively and worked throughout various states in Brazil and is conversant in Brazilian Portuguese.

(http://www.votebrianmoore.com...)
Debate Round No. 2
revleader5

Pro

By us giving bad treatment to terrorists in jail, that doesn't help them. Us being is Iraq isn't hurting them, but it doesn't help either. And what you are saying about immigrants could be said about criminals, which immigrants are.

Example- There are 300 murderers on the loose, let's say. The police department says, well there were 299, before this latest guy, let's not do anything. How would you respond?
SocialistRI82

Con

You are using a question that has an obvious answer. Let me ask you this then, would you rather the government spend billions of dollars to fight this? How does Paul propose to get these 11 million people out of here?
Debate Round No. 3
revleader5

Pro

He wants to do some harder checks and stricter laws for hiring workers. He first wants to clean up foreign policy though. Obviously some illegals will get away, but he doesn't have to spend billions, he just has to make laws that make it harder for companies to hire illegals.
SocialistRI82

Con

Thats all well and good that he wants to pass laws to make it harder to hire them. Currently the people hiring them are not hiring them legally. They pick them up in pick-up trucks work them for the day and pay them cash. So to enforce these "laws" Paul wants to pass you are going to need a virtual army of inspectors to find these businesses and punish them. Furthermore that doesn't begin to address what to do with the estimated 11 or 12 million of them already here. What does he plan to do with them? Make a law that makes it harder for them to find work?? Anyone who has taken an entry level sociology class realizes that poverty is a great motivator for crime. So now you've taken away the ability for these people to support themselves, how are they going to do it? I don't think this country needs another 11 million hungry mouths to feed. At least now a vast majority of them are working, trying to better themselves. Your candidate would have them poor, still in this country, and with no prospects for upward mobility. The token "pass laws" plan is not going to address any of the problem. If anything it will end up created a great deal of problems. Moore at least realizes the futility and wastefulness that would result in an attempt to remove, or punish these people. Granted many of these people are here illegally, but why are they here? One must put ourselves in their shoes to understand why they have done what they have. If I am a Mexican male who has a wife and 2 children, and Mexico has no opportunity for my to better my family and give them a better life, guess what, I'm going somewhere that does. Poverty around the world and civil strife is causing these people to flood here in record numbers. This is no different than the great waves of europeans who came here in the 19th and 20th centuries. The only difference is that there is no Ellis Island, no program setup to ensure equal opportunity to those who do come here. Instead of looking at these people as Paul does, that is as threats to our country, Moore looks at them as a positive opportunity. One which will allow them to finally get on the books and start paying taxes. One that creates a path to citizenship, one that provides opportunities for these people to better themselves, which will in turn better us as a country. Wasting billions to fight them is useless. They are here and they aren't going anywhere. That is why I feel your candidate is not best suited for the presidency. (Honestly neither of our candidates will win) His policies are made to rally a base, and make headlines. They provide no applicable guidelines, and show little possibility of functioning efficiently. It would be more of the same pandering and polarizing politics. Which is exactly what this country DOESN'T need.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by mjvoss 9 years ago
mjvoss
The literacy rate is at 99%...

Ron Paul supporters make me laugh.
Posted by artC 9 years ago
artC
Thank you Socialist for presenting this interesting candidate. I have never even heard of him before. Well I'm off to research this guy and we'll see how it goes.

At the least it will provide some ammunition for the Ron Paul groupies
Posted by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
***MISTYPE ON BEING IN IRAN, I MEANT AFGHANISTAN***

"if we weren't in Iraq, if we weren't in Iran, and if we hadn't been the cause of it"
Posted by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
Not at all. I'm Irish catholic I know plenty of religous war. I question wheter we would be having all these issues of terrorism if we weren't supporting Israel, if we weren't in Iraq, if we weren't in Iran, and if we hadn't been the cause of it. (Iran Iraq War) Remind me, where did Saddam get those chem weapons he used in that war??? Terrorism is going to exist even if we hadn't done those things, however I believe that they would lack the recruitment tools, and the call to arms causes had we not, and if we don't continue to do those things. The 3 big recruitment tools they use are 1.OCCUPATION OF IRAQ/AFGHANISTAN 2. SUPPORT OF ISRAEL 3. ABU GRAIB/GITMO/EASTEN EUROPEAN INTERROGATION SITES. How can Bin Laden sell suicide bombing without those tools? Funny that now that we are in Iraq the terrorists now have a rallying point, a place to test their techniques, a place to gain experience and knowledge of our tactics, and a place to kill our soldiers. I don't subscribe to the propoganda that if we don't fight them there we'll fight them here. Its seems that the answers are clear, but our politicians have to much to lose to make it happen. Again it's not their kids going over there.
Posted by TheGreatDebate 9 years ago
TheGreatDebate
while I HATE socialism, I hate Brian P. Moore Paul also :)

SocialistRi82, are you deneying that terrorism is caused a majority of the time, by religious ideology?
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Socialism FAILS every time its tried

You are simply a fool for thinking otherwise

Noone will ever even hear of your candidate

But best of luck to you anyway
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