The Instigator
shoutevenshy
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Balacafa
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

I can't decide whether to be for or against abortion - Convince me to be pro-choice!

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Balacafa
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/8/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 668 times Debate No: 79517
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

shoutevenshy

Con

I'm gonna make two debates, one for someone to convince me to be pro-life, one to convince me to be pro-choice! In this debate I am against abortion, and you are for.
Balacafa

Pro

I accept this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
shoutevenshy

Con

Shouldn't abortion be considered murder of human beings? Should that be a choice for anyone?
Balacafa

Pro

Argument

Women should have the right to make decisions about their own bodies. Women should be able to have an abortion if they are too young and unable to take care their babies. And the right to have an abortion if the pregnency negatively affects the women's or the babies's health.

It is women's right to make decisions about their own bodies. Having control over their own bodies is an important part of the equal rights that women have fount for. According to socialistworker, Women have the right to control their own body and reproductive lives. Therefore, no one has the right to tell a woman what she can or can not do with her body. This view is shared by the United States Supreme Court who ruled in the 1973 case "Roe Vs. Wade" that women have the right to control their own bodies. Since 1973 the Supreme Court has never over ruled this decision.

Another reason that women should be able to have abortions is in case the mothers are too young and unable to take care their babies. Unwanted pregnancies can be very stressful for women. Therefore, if they think they can not give their babies a good life then it is right for them to have abortions. For example, one of my friends was pregnant when she was 19. She and her baby's father were still in college by that time. Neither had a job, and they knew that they could not afford to buy food and provided medical care for their baby. My friend got an abortion, even though it was the hardest decision of her life. She knew that it would be better, however, for her own life and because she could not properly take care of the baby.

Critics of abortion say stopping a fetus's life is wrong. But if the babies health is at question during the pregnacy a woman should have the right to choose for herself. The reason is I believe that continuing a dangerous pregnacy will put a woman in a dangerous situation and will bring the baby into a life of sickness. In pre-pregnancy diabetes raises risk of birth defects, Donya (2008) report that " Women diagnosed with diabetes before they become pregnant are three times to four times more likely to give birth to a child with one or even multiple birth defects than a non diabetic mother, according to a study in the Aug. 1 American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology ". If a woman gets pregnant and she has a history of heart disease then continuing the pregnancy would put both her and her baby at risk. A woman with a history of heart disease should avoid pregnancy because of the the high risk of death or she will give birth to a baby with birth defects. Therefore, it is right if a woman chooses to get abortion in this case.

Advocates of abortion believe that death is harmful for the fetus and the fetus has the right to have a life just like ours. One advocate of abortion is Stone. For Stone, " death seriously harms the fetus and so the fetus has a right to life because death deprives the fetus of conscious goods which it is the foetus's biological natural to make itself have " . However when a woman's health is at risk or they will give birth to a child with defects then abortion would be better for the mother and for the baby. If we know the child will be born with defects then there is no point in having have the mother keep the baby if she chooses not to.

I'm not sure my opponent considered if the person wanting an abortion is a rape victim. If someone is raped (especially at a young age - younger than 18) do you think that they should have to go through the process of having a child. Not only will it be hard to look after at such a young age. It will also be hard to explain to the baby who the father is. Having a child who reminds you of such a horrible experience is not a nice thing. What if the child grows up to look like his father (the rapist). Then what?

In conclusion, I believe that women have the right to have abortions. First, women have the right to control their own bodies. Second, they have the right to have abortions if the pregnancies will affect their health and their babies health in a harmful way. Third, women have the right to have abortions if they have been raped. Also advocates of abortion believe that abortion is seriously wrong but women should do what is best for them and their babies.

Sources

Sharon Smith. " Abortion is every woman's right." Socialistworker 23 April 2004.

Stretton, Dean. "The Deprivation Argument Against Abortion." Bioethics 18.2 (Apr. 2004): 144-180. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. [Library name], [City], [State abbreviation].

Currie, Donya. "Pre-pregnancy diabetes raises risk of birth defects." Nation's Health 38.8 (Oct. 2008): 21-21. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. [Library name], [City], [State abbreviation].

J. Stone. Why Potentiality Matters. Canadian Journal of Philosophy 1987; 17:
815-830. More recently: J. Stone. Why Potentiality Still Matters.
Canadian Journal
of Philosophy 1994; 24: 281-294

https://www.google.co.uk...

https://www.google.co.uk...;
Debate Round No. 2
shoutevenshy

Con

I agree that if the pregnancy is dangerous for either mother or child, there should be no question as to whether or not she could have an abortion. However, for the majority of abortions performed this is not the case.

Women should have the right to choose
- Don't they already? Everyone knows what sex might lead to, so didn't she make the choice already? I feel like it is kind of like eating unhealthy and expecting the right to choose the result of that.

Mothers are too young in some cases
- There is an easy solution to this. I live in Denmark, and over here young mothers get financial support. They get MORE support if they move out of their parents house and live on their own. If they choose to stay in school, they get even more support in order to that. I think all countries should make a system like this, to encourage people to have their babies. Furthermore, statistics show that the age group that is responsible for the highest amount of abortions are women in their twenties, not teenagers (source: http://www.abort73.com...)

Mother can be in danger
- This is a valid argument, HOWEVER less than ONE PERCENT of abortions are done to save the mother (source: http://www.abortionfacts.com... ) Also only one per cent (of aborting women) reported that they were the survivors of rape. That means well over 90 per cent of abortions are neither to save the mother, the mothers were not victims of rape - over 90 per cent of abortions occur because of convenience.

I get that you think a woman should be able to decide what to do with her body - but do you not think the baby in her womb has a say at all?
Balacafa

Pro

You have dismissed my argument regarding rape with only a few comments which I will respond to later.

You claim that women have the right to choose. They may not be restricted by law (although sometimes they are) but sometimes they are restricted by their religion. If they are raped some religions still do not allow abortion!

It's not all about financial support. Just because teenagers who get pregnant are a minority it does not mean that they should be ignored. It isn't nice having all the pressure and responsibility even with financial support. A child shouldn't have to live a life where they are in university with a 6 year old child. They could be bullied and people may question her at a young age about it and they may feel insecure. Minorities still matter - they shouldn't be disregarded and ignored because of this.

The argument regarding your response to mothers being in danger is simple to counter. Again, this is an argument against the minorities. Do you think that it is okay to ban abortions just because most people who have an abortion aren't raped? Rape is an increasingly worrying issue and those statistics will begin to increase.

The baby in her womb wouldn't want to be the cause of their mother's death. Or a reminder for their mother's rape. Or the reason that their mother cannot live the life she wants to live. The baby in the mother's womb would want their mother to be happy and if an abortion would make the mother happy then it is a choice that she should be allowed to make.

Sources

https://www.google.co.uk...

https://www.google.co.uk...
Debate Round No. 3
shoutevenshy

Con

I just wanna make clear that I am not against abortion for women who are in danger, and pregnancies that are a result of rape. I just wanted to show you the statistics, on how small this minority is, and that they are not the real problem here.

Regarding rape:

You said statistics will increase soon because rape is an increasingly worrying issue - However over over 50 per cent of women that got pregnant as result of rape DID NOT choose abortion as a solution to that. Rape may be an increasing issue, however since the vast majority of rape victims choose other solutions, it is simply not an issue regarding abortion.

Sources: http://articles.latimes.com...

This source claims there are over 32,000 rape related pregnancies each year in the states.

Source: http://www.angelfire.com...

This source claims there are 14,000 abortions done to terminate pregnancies caused by rape each year. Meaning over 50% of the rape related pregnancies were not terminated.

Also, I think it is interesting to mention that in Victims and Victors (Acorn Books, 2000), a book written by David Reardon, Amy Sobie, and Julie Makimma, 192 women were interviewed. These women had had abortions after they became pregnant from rape. Nearly all the women said that they regretted the abortion, and over 90% said they would discourage other rape victims from choosing abortion.

Regarding teenagers:

They could be bullied? I hardly think terminating a pregnancy because you might get bullied is a rational solution. If that is the only problem here we need a change of attitude in our society, and I think we should work on that instead of encouraging abortion for young children. Many doctors agree with me when I say biologically a woman is in her best shape to have her children from age 17-25. We should forget our social standards that you start your family in your 30's, where your chances of having unhealthy children are increased by 5 times or more, by the way. Change the attitude, don't kill human beings.

Furthermore you seem to have a lot of sympathy with young teenagers getting pregnant, however no mercy whatsoever for the child growing in their womb? How does that makes sense?
Balacafa

Pro

So you have not really refuted anything. You have stated that you are not against abortion for women who are in danger, and pregnancies that are a result of rape but you still believe that abortions are wrong. You cannot set your own terms for abortions if you have changed your view then this could be viewed as a concession however I will continue with these rebuttals just in case voters do not see this as a concession.

Rape

Rape is an issue regarding abortion just because over 50% of women who got raped did not choose an abortion that does not mean that you can completely take out rape cases out of this debate. Lets assume that there are exactally 32,000 rape related pregnancies each year because that is roughly correct as you have stated. 14,000 abortions is only very slightly under 50%. I you suggesting that we ignore 14,000 aborted rape cases. So out of the 14,000 yearly abortions, 90% of 192 women said they regretted it? I'm sure that you cannot say whether or not woman who are raped regret abortion after only interviewing 192 women out of the 14000 yearly. In my opinion (which is shared by many others) this is not sufficient evidence as to why abortions are wrong.

Teenagers

My opponent makes quite a clumsy mistake by saying: "If that is the only problem here we need a change of attitude in our society, and I think we should work on that instead of encouraging abortion for young children. " My opponent knows that isn't the only issue here and they know this since we have just discussed the issue of rape and other issues in previous rounds. My opponent has gone off and provided me with some random facts that make their arguments seem a lot longer than it actually is. Telling me when a woman is in her best shape to have children does nothing to support your side and it does nothing to contradict my argument. I have no need to know this information. That is just advise for teenagers and I would also advise someone to do that but that doesn't mean that I am against abortions. If a 12 year old wants an abortion then they shouldn't be pressured by others who advise her not to have one. This can make the child feel insecure and they may even feel like they do not have their right to a freedom of speech.

The child in her womb wont have a very good life growing up with a 12 year old mother so it hardly makes any sense not to abort the baby if the young child is willing to.

My opponent has failed to address other points made in previous rounds such as the womans right to choose has been dropped as an issue and has now become the issue of rape alone. You have spoken about how women have the right to choose in previous rounds however you have said that they shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion. You have stated that they have the right to a choice but they only get to choose things that you think that they should be allowed to choose.

The conclusion comes after a three-year research period involving nearly 670 women of all social backgrounds

Ninety-five percent of women who have had abortions do not regret the decision to terminate their pregnancies



Sources

http://www.angelfire.com...

https://www.google.co.uk...

http://time.com...

Debate Round No. 4
shoutevenshy

Con

I don't know whether it is a concession, I have never in this debate implied that I am against abortion for victims of rape or mothers whose health are in danger, and if you mean that I am admitting that abortion is okay, that is not what I was doing at all. There are plenty of people who think abortions should only be done when in extraordinary cases, such as risk of health or life or rape. Medically speaking there are a lot of things we do that are only okay in some scenarios, that doesn't make it okay to do in general.

Rape:

I think I have clearly stated multiple times that I am not against abortions for women that have been victims of rape. I have however provided information to show you how rape is not a relevant issue to the debate. 1% of abortions are due to rape, that means 99% of abortions do not - and since I don't oppose the 1% you continue to talk about, I don't see why we are still talking about that.

Teenagers:

I don't see how a 12 year old could get pregnant unless it was due to rape, furthermore you listed this argument under 'teenager' even though a 12 year old is a child, not a teen.

I don't know what to answer to the rest of your comment here, since you spend most your effort on repeating what I said.
Balacafa

Pro

I'll leave the voters to decide whether it was a concession in my opinion it was but I will focus on rebuttals and a conclusion in this round.

Rape

I view this as another concession by my opponent. They have stated that they aren't against abortions for women who are victims of rape. This was not mentioned in the resolution or when I accepted this debate. You cannot say abortions are only necessary in some cases. You are only ever Pro or con the resolution. You can't argue against the death penalty and then say that it's only okay for the worst criminals to have the death penalty, a debate does not work this way. 1% is 14,000 rape related abortions. My opponent says that they are pro abortions for rape victims but then says that they do not know why we are still talking about this.

Teenagers

Due negative influence from the media children varying from as young as 11 can get pregnant from cases other than rape. Some areas do not find that Sex education is morally correct for children under a specific age and so it is not done. This can lead to children having sex (although it is not common under the age of 12).

My opponent has failed to respond to my statistic that: Ninety-five percent of women who have had abortions do not regret the decision to terminate their pregnancies

Conclusion

To conclude this debate I believe that I have won for the following reasons.

Arguments:
Con essentially concedes and even if you do not view that as a concession then if you look back at my opponents argument for round 2 you will realise that, that wasn't much better than forfeiting. No arguments were stated - only questions. Here is a quote from my opponents argument:

"I agree that if the pregnancy is dangerous for either mother or child, there should be no question as to whether or not she could have an abortion."

My opponent says the same thing about the issue of rape here:


"I think I have clearly stated multiple times that I am not against abortions for women that have been victims of rape."



Conduct:
It is also interesting to note that my opponent copy and pasted a lot of his arguments from this website and did not quote them:

http://www.angelfire.com...

Here is an example:

"Also, I think it is interesting to mention that in Victims and Victors (Acorn Books, 2000), a book written by David Reardon, Amy Sobie, and Julie Makimma, 192 women were interviewed."


Spelling and Grammar: Tied

Sources:
As well as Con's sources being bias - they have also copy and pasted a lot of their argument (as stated above in greater detail).

I think that it is clear, for these reasons and more, that the proposition has won this debate.

Sources

http://www.angelfire.com...

http://www.debate.org...;
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by MizzEnigma 1 year ago
MizzEnigma
12 year old children are having sex (mostly due to the overrepresentation of it on media, the lack of sexual education, etc.) I've seen pregnant thirteen year olds and twelve year olds (even an eleven year old, but she tripped going down the stairs and had a miscarriage.) They do not need to be raped in order to end up pregnant. Thought I'd point that out.
Posted by Surrealism 1 year ago
Surrealism
Well, I'm a bit swamped at the moment. If a few days pass and no one accepts I will.
Posted by shoutevenshy 1 year ago
shoutevenshy
I hope you take on the challenge then :)
Posted by Surrealism 1 year ago
Surrealism
I might be interested in this.
Posted by shoutevenshy 1 year ago
shoutevenshy
Hello Bob, I'm merely interested in debating, and I like to debate from different positions. I created a debate just like this one, where I asked for people to convince me to be pro-life ( http://www.debate.org... )

There is no cause for this, I am interested in hearing arguments from both sides, and making them from both sides. I don't see how this couldn't be an opportunity for me to learn.
Posted by bobsndyer1 1 year ago
bobsndyer1
It sounds to me from this debate and your profile like you're putting the cart before the horse. You're someone in search of a social or political cause, which is always a lost cause.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by ax123man 1 year ago
ax123man
shoutevenshyBalacafaTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I don't think Con understood the importance of clearly defining a resolution, which clearly took a stance against abortion in general. Even if I give con a break for a beginner mistake and not give a full concession on this, I still don't think Con effectively addressed the "right to choose" argument.