The Instigator
Mellers23
Con (against)
Losing
22 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Pro (for)
Winning
25 Points

I don't know what to believe on the subject of...God. [Does this even qualify as a debate? D=]

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/3/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,980 times Debate No: 4578
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (21)
Votes (13)

 

Mellers23

Con

I'm gonna go con, because I really have no specific stand on this subject. I was born into a closet-Christian family. My dad grew up Christian, I think my mom became auto-Christian when they got married in a church. [I prefer to get married next to a waterfall in a rainforest.] So anyway. I was the conformist little child, forced into the religion. We went to church nearly every weekend, and as I grew up, we went less often. Age 5-11 was about when we went every weekend, so I spent a fair amount of time on the religious front. In most 'Religious' families that I meet, the children have a firm understanding of God, Jesus, and the whole concept/story line. But for me, it never really clicked. I sat in church, but I treated it as life, just something that people do. Such as riding a horse or watching a ball game. I didn't understand the magnitude of the subject. It never really hit me that some man died to save specifically me. I just don't understand, and that's probably why I don't believe...yet. I don't really have a religion right now, because I don't know much about any of the religions, so I can't pick. I'm just confused, and don't have a clear understanding of anything having to do with religion. Perhaps, if my 'challenger'[please don't pummel me into the ground, I mean no offense by this] could provide a clear perspective whether they believe in God or not, maybe it'd help me out. So thanks, I hope to hear from someone soon. =D
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

Wrong zerosmelt, but close.

the resolution is "I (Mellers23, the one who wrote the sentence, the instigator) don't know what to believe on the subject of...God." The parenthesis on the rest implies it is not part of the resolution. Since I am Pro, I have to argue that it is indeed the case that you do not (present tense) know what to believe on the subject of God. To establish this, I provide your own admission, "I really have no specific stand on this subject." This admission would mean either a, you do not know enough to take such a specific stand, or b, you do know, but don't have the moral courage to admit it and actual take the stand. Since the latter would mean you are unlikely to have enough courage to post this debate either, it is clearly problematic, creating a great deal of evidence in favor of the former. Also, you state specifically "I didn't understand the magnitude of the subject." Unless you wish to argue you were a liar in Round One, it would appear you forfeit the debate.

Now that the formalities of debating are settled, I'll give you what you wanted, or what I can provide of it, my own thoughts on the subject of God. First, no evidence of such a being has been brought forward, and second, most conceptions of such a being are logically contradictory. I'll give you one example of an airtight argument against many conceptions of God:

"
An OMNIPOTENT being has all powers imaginable, and can perform any ACTION. CREATING something more powerful than omnipotent is an ACTION. It is not possible to CREATE something more powerful than omnipotent. Therefore, contradiction.

1. O->A (assumption, definition of omnipotent)
2. A->C (Assumption, dare you to defy it.)
3. ~C (assumption, definition of omnipotent)
4. O (Assumption of the existence of God)
5. A (4,1 by arrow out rule of logic.
6. C (5,2 by arrow out rule).
7. C & ~C (6,3, by ampersand in rule, CONTRADICTION, check premises).

"

This immediately invalidates any conception of God as omnipotent, which would invalidate most of the mainstream monotheistic religions today, including Christianty, Islam, and Judaism. I am quite open to any comers giving me their own conceptions of "god" or gods, most of them can be disproven almost as easily.
Debate Round No. 1
Mellers23

Con

Wow, thanks buddy. You didn't need to go all Glory-road on me, but okay. I didn't post this to argue with anyone, merely to gain a better understanding of maybe other people's perception of God, or their disbelief's in God. If you 'took the challenge'[made it sound like a game show there, because obviously that's what you're treating it as] to simply 'win another debate, woo!' I think that's pretty selfish of you. Okay, so..you proved that I really don't know what to believe on the subject of God. If you want to go all 'HARDCORE. I WANT TO PROVE THAT SHE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE.' Maybe I do know, I just don't know how to express it. So to indeed prove that I have absolutely no idea. Because in this case, you would be right if I were in a "50%-50%" stage. If I am in a "60%-40%", seeing as Unitarian Universalism is a religion, and it's basically the concept of taking certain beliefs from different religions to suit one's needs, which I could in fact do[For example, believing that there is a 'higher power' (Christianity) but believing he is not a divine individual...whatever(Atheism)=Agnosticism. {I THINK}], I would be correct, in my case. So you would have to dig inside my head, maybe do a couple scientific tests, figure out what's really going on in there. Maybe use your oh-so-nifty telepathic powers to read my mind. Trust me, I wouldn't attempt, it's quite messy in there. That's how you would prove that I without doubt have absolutely no idea what to believe. Since you can't do that, eh, I dunno what lies ahead for you. And I didn't post this current entry to alienate anyone. But when people treat my life as a game, or a token, or something for personal gain, it sort of creates a grudge with me. So if you want to be like, 'the person who wins the most arguments' please try not to do it with my entries. Go argue for genetically modified corn, or something. And I have no idea what I just said in this little paragraph. It came from my noggin of useless information. O_o;;;;; I am not discouraged.
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

"You didn't need to go all Glory-road on me, but okay"?

Huh? Never saw that movie. but yes, I did, as a formality.

"I didn't post this to argue with anyone, merely to gain a better understanding of maybe other people's perception of God, or their disbelief's in God"

I know, i was simply dispensing with the formality of a debate :D

"If you 'took the challenge'[made it sound like a game show there, because obviously that's what you're treating it as] to simply 'win another debate, woo!' I think that's pretty selfish of you."

I am a pretty selfish person, in fact, an absolutely selfish one, without exception- far too much to do anything JUST for a win :D.

"Maybe I do know, I just don't know how to express it."
You are capable of language, clearly, so anything you know you are capable of expressing.

"If I am in a "60%-40%", seeing as Unitarian Universalism is a religion, and it's basically the concept of taking certain beliefs from different religions to suit one's needs"

Whim is not knowledge. It is indeed the basis of the philosophical tradition of Plato, Kant, William James, and every other thinker who has tried to destroy the concept. Taking random ideas completely out of their contexts and smashing them together is multiple charges of whim, which would make Unitarian Universalism even worse than believing in a single religion on the scale of epistemology.

"For example, believing that there is a 'higher power' (Christianity) but believing he is not a divine individual"
Define divine, and all the powers of this higher power. An undefined belief is not knowledge.

", I would be correct, in my case. So you would have to dig inside my head, maybe do a couple scientific tests, figure out what's really going on in there."
No, I simply have to infer from your actions. Your actions (posting this debate) indicate you are in doubt. Much as I could conclude an admiration of Hitler in someone's mind if their actions consisted of advocating a Final Solution Version 2.0.

"And I didn't post this current entry to alienate anyone. But when people treat my life as a game, or a token, or something for personal gain, it sort of creates a grudge with me. So if you want to be like, 'the person who wins the most arguments' please try not to do it with my entries."

In case you haven't noticed, the second half of my first round argument gave you what you wanted. Is it so wrong that I have what I wanted in exchange, especially since the website explicitly advocates my use and not yours? And I am not treating "your life" as a means, merely this debate, which you have surrendered to the website.
Debate Round No. 2
Mellers23

Con

Mellers23 forfeited this round.
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

Interesting...
But rather strange.

Well, why does the software expect a response to a forfeit to be grammatically correct?
Debate Round No. 3
Mellers23

Con

Whoa! Hehehe. I'm back! :D I know you all missed me. :]

Ok..o.o;

So now what? I guess I just continue on...

"Huh? Never saw that movie. but yes, I did, as a formality."

You should, it's pretty darn good. ;D Heyhey. I'd tell you you're self-righteous, but you're too high on your horse to hear it.

I think this little thing we have going on here has turned into more of a conversation than anything..So hi! My name is Melissa. =D Nice to meet you.

Anyway, I was logged off for a day or two because I went camping. ^-^ But we're not even having a 'debate' anymore, and it's really fun! I like talking more than arguing. >_>;

"I know, i was simply dispensing with the formality of a debate :D"

We aren't debating anymore thanks to you. Hellooooooo?

"I am a pretty selfish person, in fact, an absolutely selfish one, without exception- far too much to do anything JUST for a win :D."

Wow. You must think you are pretty cool. I think you are too! =D Except you're kinda mean. Oh well.

Who takes time out of their lives to copy other people's words, put them into quotes, and comment on them? It's very tiring. Ragnar..do you have an occupation? Yeah, and don't go calling me out on that one. I know, I'm a hypocrite, woohoo! Welcome to life. I foresee the future.

"You are capable of language, clearly, so anything you know you are capable of expressing."

I'm not capable of expressing everything, because I don't know EVERYTHING. Like you think you do. =[
Congratulations! I can't express something if I have no clue what it is.

"Whim is not knowledge. It is indeed the basis of the philosophical tradition of Plato, Kant, William James, and every other thinker who has tried to destroy the concept. Taking random ideas completely out of their contexts and smashing them together is multiple charges of whim, which would make Unitarian Universalism even worse than believing in a single religion on the scale of epistemology."

Buddy, have some sunshine in your life. Everything does not have to concur with scientific-ness, or the past, whatever. Plato..uhh. I don't know him, why should I believe what he says? Whim is fun. It's...spontaneous. I never said I was Unitarian Universalist, I used it as an example. Hush. Have you ever had a single solitary day of fun in your lifetime?

"No, I simply have to infer from your actions. Your actions (posting this debate) indicate you are in doubt. Much as I could conclude an admiration of Hitler in someone's mind if their actions consisted of advocating a Final Solution Version 2.0."

My actions. Right. I'm typing! That's an action! Woooo0o0o0o. Hitler was psycho. Ohoh, reminds me. And this is serious, I want an answer. If you had the choice to go back in time, would you kill baby Hitler? You'll vote no, I know it.

"In case you haven't noticed, the second half of my first round argument gave you what you wanted. Is it so wrong that I have what I wanted in exchange, especially since the website explicitly advocates my use and not yours? And I am not treating "your life" as a means, merely this debate, which you have surrendered to the website."

'In case you haven't noticed..bleh bleh bleh'..
Must think you're pretty hardcore.

Bahaha. I have not surrendered my life to this site! Are you out of your mind? Maybe you have, but that's your choice. If you want a computer to own your life, power to you. I don't sit at my computer for countless days practicing this stuff! I just came on here to learn! Maybe you should try it too. You know 'expand your horizons'. You seem like the type of person who needs nothing but themselves and the attention of a pet gerbil to be happy.

I'm a bit sugar high, if you didn't know..><; Hyper, etc.
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

"I'd tell you you're self-righteous, but you're too high on your horse to hear it.
"

Lol good one.

"
We aren't debating anymore thanks to you. Hellooooooo?
"

Wait how is that my fault?

"
Wow. You must think you are pretty cool. I think you are too! =D Except you're kinda mean. Oh well.
"
Mean?

"
Who takes time out of their lives to copy other people's words, put them into quotes, and comment on them? It's very tiring. Ragnar..do you have an occupation?"
No, I do not. I just graduated from high school, I will be taking a significant courseload at a community college in the fall, I intend to enjoy the summer. Occupations shall be taken care of in good time.

"
I'm not capable of expressing everything, because I don't know EVERYTHING"

I did not claim you knew everything, or could express everything, only that you could express anything you happen to know.

"
Buddy, have some sunshine in your life. Everything does not have to concur with scientific-ness, or the past, whatever. "

When did I mention science or the past? It is logic that things must concur with, logic from the facts of reality.

"Plato..uhh. I don't know him, why should I believe what he says?"

You shouldn't. But you do. His philosophical tradition has found it's climax in you shouting the glories of whim.

"I never said I was Unitarian Universalist, I used it as an example."
Not an excuse, unless you were using it as an example of something you recognize as bad :D

"Have you ever had a single solitary day of fun in your lifetime?
"
A few. But not of nearly the quality that can be had if I succeed in hat I'm trying to do down the road.

"And this is serious, I want an answer. If you had the choice to go back in time, would you kill baby Hitler? You'll vote no, I know it."

That depends. I'm assuming I can only go back once right? Is Hitler my only option or can I go back to any time? If Hitler's the only option, I'd go back and do it. If not, I'd go back further in German history, and kill Immanuel Kant. See, if he never existed, there would never have been a foundation for Hegel and Marx to build on. And no Hegel and no Marx means no Hitler and no Stalin.

"
Bahaha. I have not surrendered my life to this site!"

Straw man, I claimed you surrendered the content of this debate, not your life :D.

"You seem like the type of person who needs nothing but themselves and the attention of a pet gerbil to be happy."

I need no pet gerbil, but I am very very pick at defining "myself." Specifically, to be happy I must own ALL of myself, this means no taxes, no provisos, absolutely no initiation of force by the government.
Debate Round No. 4
Mellers23

Con

"Lol good one."

:D

"Wait how is that my fault?"

Uhhh. 'Cause. There's some research for you to debate about. ;D
Well, actually. Because I never wanted a debate. And then you started the quotes thing. >.>; [:

"Mean?"

I think so, yes. Well, you even called yourself selfish. Don't insult yourself, it's bad for your health. >=[

"No, I do not. I just graduated from high school, I will be taking a significant courseload at a community college in the fall, I intend to enjoy the summer. Occupations shall be taken care of in good time."

Pffft. I'm STILL in high school and I even have a job. I work at a pet shop, it's very fun. ^_^

"I did not claim you knew everything, or could express everything, only that you could express anything you happen to know....'And I am not treating "your life" as a means, merely this debate, which you have surrendered to the website.' "

Ah-hah!
Oh wait.
...I dunno. =|

"I did not claim you knew everything, or could express everything, only that you could express anything you happen to know."

Yeah, well. I don't know anything about religion, so I can't express it, can I? Sha-bam! That's what the post was about, anyway? =P

"When did I mention science or the past? It is logic that things must concur with, logic from the facts of reality."

Plato, and all of those other people were in the past. ..Logic is boring. Be creative. Come up with some things yourself.

"Not an excuse, unless you were using it as an example of something you recognize as bad :D"

Maybe I do, I just didn't tell you that part. ':D'.

"A few. But not of nearly the quality that can be had if I succeed in hat I'm trying to do down the road."

Wow. Everyday is fun for me. :You're a winner!!!
And I don't understand the second sentence, care to explain?
OH! I think you meant 'what'. So...what do you plan on doing down the road? I'm going to be a world traveler. That's going to be loads of fun. n_n;

& Yes, you could only go back to Hitler. Oh shame, I would shoot him. =[

"Straw man, I claimed you surrendered the content of this debate, not your life :D."

I claim. That you shouldn't believe what you hear, and only half of what you see. Believe the bad half, imagine the good. -.o;
And what's a straw man???

"I need no pet gerbil, but I am very very pick at defining "myself." Specifically, to be happy I must own ALL of myself, this means no taxes, no provisos, absolutely no initiation of force by the government."

Do you have authority issues? Please, elaborate how you're going to live in this world without being ruled by anybody at all. It sounds like a good idea to me, too. I just don't know how.
..and pet gerbils are fun. My neighbor has one. [x
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

"

Uhhh. 'Cause. There's some research for you to debate about. ;D
Well, actually. Because I never wanted a debate. And then you started the quotes thing. >.>; [:"

It does not follow that because you did not wish a debate it is my fault that we are no longer debating. In fact the opposite follows.

"
I think so, yes. Well, you even called yourself selfish."
Selfish=/= mean. They are different terms.

"Don't insult yourself, it's bad for your health. >=[ "

I do not consider "selfish" an insult.

"
Pffft. I'm STILL in high school and I even have a job."
Do you also have siblings you are required to care for most of the day every day?

"
Yeah, well. I don't know anything about religion, so I can't express it, can I?"
Which was precisely my point. If you did know, you could express it, you can't, so you don't.

"
Plato, and all of those other people were in the past. ..Logic is boring. Be creative. Come up with some things yourself.
"
Logic is a tool of creativity.

"
OH! I think you meant 'what'. So...what do you plan on doing down the road?"

Creating a place where humans can be free for once?

"
I claim. That you shouldn't believe what you hear, and only half of what you see."

Everything you see, and everything you hear, is true, the problem is making sure that you are quite clear on what you have seen and what you have heard. For example, if you hear someone say "X=y," it is the case that someone must have said x=y, but it is not necessarily the case that x in fact equals y, as you "heard" the fact that someone said it, you did not "hear" the truth itself so to speak.

"And what's a straw man???"
A rebuttal to an argument nobody made.

"
Do you have authority issues"
Hmm... yes :D.

"Please, elaborate how you're going to live in this world without being ruled by anybody at all." Well, it's not easy, but killing or taking away power projection from those who attempt to rule me seems to be the only way to go about it. Of course I must first gain enough power to be able to do so. And that takes time.
Debate Round No. 5
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"to come out of the dark and give urself up to people who want to murder you, that takes courage. "
No, it takes cowardice, a fear of life. Death is easy. Life is what takes courage. Courage would entail coming out of the dark to make your best attempt at eliminating the people who want to murder you, to have the honesty to admit to yourself that that is the only option if you value your life, to not hide from the problem by pretending it will go away, or it doesn't exist, or that it doesn't matter because you plan to ascend to some magic fantasy land despite all facts pointing to no such thing being present.

"courage is when you're afraid, but u do it anyway and Jesus was human"
Courage is when you act to get rid of what you are afraid of, if the fear is rational, or think, if the fear is irrational. Jesus was sub-human, he did not have enough self-esteem to be worthy of the title "human."

"God is not trying to show us that He is powerful [even tho really He is]"
See the round one argument for the disproof of the Christian claim of God's omnipotence. You have not addressed it, nor offered any alternate non-omnipotent conceptions, nor offered logic as to why you think he is "powerful."

"we are not expected to be perfect. God exects us to be human because well, He created us that way. that's what we are."
Let us assume for a second, despite all logic to the contrary, that God created human beings, and made "perfection" impossible for them. Take this to it's conclusion. Logically, that means any flaws we have are HIS fault, (psychologically a good excuse the flawed make to themselves I suppose), and thus if he intended them, which he had to if he's that powerful, heis EVIL.)
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
And even were it true, that everyone is weak and sinful, willful belief in falsehoods is itself a sin, and a weakener, and so no cure.

"He taught us about God and helped people when they asked and FORGAVE the soldiers, i mean forgivving someone who nailed you on the Cross??? Is that something you could do??"

I COULD do so easily. Forgiveness is easy, it simply requires not thinking about their actions. But I wouldn't, and I won't forgive those who have done me wrong, because that is incompatible with justice. Forgiveness, when undeserved, is a sin in a category all its own, it is the abdication of value in favor of evil. Mercy to the guilty is treason to the innocent.

"snicker_911
snicker_911
as my conclusion, whether you believe in God or Jesus, it's still the same. "
Ambigous statement. If you mean "Whether God or Jesus is your particular delusion," as a choice between the two deities (not very christian of you), true. It is the same, the same epistemological error. If you mean "Whether or not you believe in God/Jesus, false. It is not the same, to believe a falsehood and to not believe a falsehood.

"the concept of actually being a good person, is pratically logical."

The concept is. Your concept, isn't, because it entails giving up the good in favor of the evil. That is the moral lesson of Jesus Christ- That the good exists for the sake of conquest by the evil. My morality, by contrast, is that the good is what promotes human life, and is the enemy of evil.

\"that IS a worthy person. to forgive people who hurt you, that takes high self-esteem "
False, and not logical. It takes low self-esteem. To forgive people who hurt you, is to encourage people to hurt you, i.e. to aid in your own destruction. Those who hold a thing in esteem, do not aid in its destruction.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"Good people don't let themselves be led into temptation [smoking, doing drugs, sex when u NO u arent ready],"
You forgot the temptation of giving into searing emotionalism and giving up one's reason for the sake of faith.

"good people try their best to stay strong and lead good examples for others so they know that if he can do it, so can I."

No, good people have the brains to recognize their own value, and base their actions on achieving that value, FOR THEMSELVES, not for the snivelling masses who refuse to do it themselves.

"esus carrying the Cross showing us that He endured this pain and now He is in Heaven and showing us that"
There is no such thing as heaven, and he sure isn't showing us it. I have never been personally taken on a tour of heaven by Jesus, and I'm sure you haven't either, which renders your statement false.

"He didn't use his God-powers or whatever u call them, to kill the soldiers and save the people"

Because he didn't understand the concept "Justice." If he had, he would have slaughtered those who attacked him, assuming of course he deserved to live, which notion other actions of his (interfering with the property rights of others by preventing them from doing commerce in a place that the owners were permitting such use, i.e. the temple) are contrary to. It is good to promote the existence of the good, and that means to eliminate threats to the good. :D

"-no He did it the way any person could]"

No, that would imply taking up arms. He did nothing at all. He just let things happen to him.

"I know some Christians think of it as some fantasy story that we can never do, that we are supposed to believe we are weak and sinnful--which is true,"

True for you, perhaps. Sin, however, is not a default state, it cannot be committed except by intent. It is therefore false that everyone is weak and sinful. And it's certainly a fantasy, as I demonstrated in Round One, which you have not disputed.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"It is sort of weird thinking that some dude who was not rich or a leader or powerful, but a meer poor young man died for us even though well he didn't technically know us future babies."

I thought he was supposed to be omniscient? lulz.

Besides, dying for the sake of other people is immoral. It consists of giving up a higher value (one's life, without which no other valuationh can be possible) for a lesser (someone else's life, which one cannot enjoy without one's own, and even if one has one's own it depends on the person in question).

"Like, giving himself up to the soldiers so he could die for everyone?? like what's up with that?"
Pure, unmitigated ignorance of the value of one's life. Insanity may have helped.

"He was human so of course He was afraid"
Fearing one's own actions implies that one's own actions are bad, i.e. something to be feared. According to Christian doctrine, which you claim to believe, he was incapable of sin, thus this would be impossible. According to said doctrine he was also not "human," but an earthly divine. Be consistent, since the Bible is the source of your beliefs and you accept it on nothing but ad authoritatem, either believe it or don't.

"He was human so of course He was afraid, but think of your mom or dad knowing that if they didn't die, YOU would die in their place...what do u think they would have done--run away and hide and let u die??"

I would hope so, but such holding one's own life in esteem is inconsistent with a number of my mother's actions, so nope, she'd be guilty of that sort of sacrifice. My father, on the other hand, I think would do the right thing and live his own life :D

"Good people don't kidnap kids, seperate families, murder others-"

Start the crusades....

and some families need separated. Families of the present variety are forced on people, keeping them unconditionally intact is anti-human, because humans are creatures of free will.
Posted by snicker_911 8 years ago
snicker_911
as my conclusion, whether you believe in God or Jesus, it's still the same. the concept of actually being a good person, is pratically logical. it just...makes sense. to give up your life for someone, how is that wrong or terrible or bad? that IS a worthy person. to forgive people who hurt you, that takes high self-esteem which is good. to come out of the dark and give urself up to people who want to murder you, that takes courage. courage is when you're afraid, but u do it anyway and Jesus was human--He was afraid, hey maybe He was even pissing His pants when they told Him He was going to carry the Cross and die on it, He was human. He had not only courage, He had His Father's trust and He was hopeful. He was being brave for others, carrying it and moving on everytime He fell and He told the women and children to be strong and not to cry when they saw Him bloody and weak, He comforted them, when really He needed the comfort. God is not trying to show us that He is powerful [even tho really He is], but that we can do whatever we set our minds to, easy or hard, weak or strong, we can do it without magical powers or having the power to create miracles like Jesus could. Having that, that was just bonus as I think of it, like comfort food or whatever, but Jesus didn't die on the Cross as part-human, part-God or the Man who could perform miracles and make things appear out of thin air, He died as a human and that's all we have to be. We don't have to be superman to impress God, we just have to be ourselves, love ourselves, love others, and try our best. just try. we are not expected to be perfect. God exects us to be human because well, He created us that way. that's what we are.
Posted by snicker_911 8 years ago
snicker_911
Good people don't let themselves be led into temptation [smoking, doing drugs, sex when u NO u arent ready], good people try their best to stay strong and lead good examples for others so they know that if he can do it, so can I. Jesus carrying the Cross showing us that He endured this pain and now He is in Heaven and showing us that He has survived people laughing at Him when He told them He was the Messiah--they didn't believe Him because they thought He would be royalty or something--and that if He could do that [and since He was Divine [part human part God in a weird way] He didn't use his God-powers or whatever u call them, to kill the soldiers and save the people--no He did it the way any person could] He was showing us that if He could do it as a human and not as God, then they could do it too. Because we are sinful and we make mistakes, we try to be powerful--Jesus wasn't showing He was powerful or too cool to chill with us and teach us about God--no! He taught us about God and helped people when they asked and FORGAVE the soldiers, i mean forgivving someone who nailed you on the Cross??? Is that something you could do?? He did it as a person, because He wanted to show us that we could do it if we really wanted to--if we wanted to be good people, if we wanted to help others and trust God even when things get nasty, we could do it. we could get through it and when things get ugly, we could fix it and make it better just as people. no miracles, no powers--we do it as people. I know some Christians think of it as some fantasy story that we can never do, that we are supposed to believe we are weak and sinnful--which is true, but Jesus was trying to show us that yeah, we may be small and we are absolutely not God, but Jesus could do it without his magical powers or whatever He called them, He did it as a person so that we can do it too. we are not useless pathetic or small, we can be big if we want to but that depends. do u want 2?
Posted by snicker_911 8 years ago
snicker_911
I'll explain! Unless...you already got it down =( oh well, im going to explain anyway, because then i will feel lonely and unfulfilled.
It is sort of weird thinking that some dude who was not rich or a leader or powerful, but a meer poor young man died for us even though well he didn't technically know us future babies. :) [haha by the way, I'm very Christian!] Like, giving himself up to the soldiers so he could die for everyone?? like what's up with that? most people would just run away and create a new life because they were fearing, but Jesus [his name lol] didn't. He was human so of course He was afraid, but think of your mom or dad knowing that if they didn't die, YOU would die in their place...what do u think they would have done--run away and hide and let u die?? Jesus loved His people so much, He was scared, yeah, He knew it would be painful, yeah, but He did it anyway because He loved us and He knew that if He didn't, who would these people look up to? He was the One teaching them about God and when they needed Him most, He would run away...?? Even though they laughed at Him, He got up, even though He was beaten and stripped to His undies, he got up, and even though He was stabbed and was nailed on the Cross, he got up and kept walking evertime He fell. the point of it was not that He was going to save us from our sins and so that we could go to Heaven some day, but really to show us that He died for us, so that one day, we could risk our lives, knowing we might die, to save someone else, because that's what we're supposed to do. not run away and be cowards or beat innocent people up, but we should give up our lives so others could live, because that's a truly good person. Good people don't kidnap kids, seperate families, murder others--good people ignore the ignorant [when Jesus was laughed at, he didn't yell at them--he ignored them and continued carryin the Cross almost buttnaked]..yeah, im runnin out so im gonna stop n finish 4 now lol
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
yeah, I'm the fun one D.

Really, I felt so damn stupid ~yanking of hair, gnashing of teeth, stomping of feet~ lol then I got over it.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"lol I think if Ragnor can convince her in the 'rightness' of atheism, and convert her completely, she will then know what to think about God, and he will lose the debate."

I'd gladly take that trade. My goal after all on this site is not the putting up of numbers, but the dissemination of truth. For purely selfish reasons of course.

And lol I thought something was up, that didn't sound like Lorca in my limited experience.
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
I would like to appologize, the previous comment was not Lorca's but mine, I did not check when I came back to the computer that I had been logged out of my account and hubby dearest had logged himself in. AS I was only gone for 2 minutes this should not have been an issue, but it will not happen again.
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