The Instigator
blackhawk1331
Con (against)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Puck
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

I exist in this world as more than a consciousness.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Puck
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/4/2011 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,070 times Debate No: 16879
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

blackhawk1331

Con

This is simple enough. I am con in support that I don't exist in this world as more then a consciousness. Pro must prove that I exist in this world as a physical being beyond all reasonable doubt. All I have to do is keep reasonable doubt that I don't exist. No closing statements will be necessary in this debate, and they are just a waste of characters. Good luck to whomever accepts this debate.
Puck

Pro

Post your argument(s). :)
Debate Round No. 1
blackhawk1331

Con

The first argument is yours to make. I just have to leave the ability for one to doubt my existence in this world as more than a consciousness. You, on the other hand, must beyond all reasonable doubt that I have a physical flesh form in this world that can succumb to harm. If you really want an argument, though, here's one.
Suppose we live in the matrix and don't know about it. While there is a visible form, it's not one of flesh that can succumb to pain. It is a re-creation of my consciousness made of programs. My physical form that can succumb to real pain is in a bubble strapped to a column that provides machines with energy. Therefore, I wouldn't exist as more than a consciousness in this world.
Puck

Pro

"The first argument is yours to make."

That maybe what you would prefer, but no. Pro and Con are merely issues of wording, your position is positive, hence the requirement for you to construct an argument. Either way your unwillingness to at least defend your position reasonably leaves this a 1 round debate. I'll explain more in the final round why this is important. Remember this is a debate about epistemology, not metaphysics.

"I just have to leave the ability for one to doubt my existence in this world as more than a consciousness."

The ability to doubt is not your R1 argument and irrelevant to the discourse in that sense. Being able to doubt is not the same as doubt that you have being reasonable - your actual argument.

"You, on the other hand, must beyond all reasonable doubt that I have a physical flesh form in this world that can succumb to harm."

What does the qualifier harm have to do with your R1 claim?

"Suppose we live in the matrix and don't know about it."

Cool. Discussion over. No reason to believe it no reason to doubt its opposite. See that was easy. It is not reasonable to doubt something with 0 proof as basis.

:)
Debate Round No. 2
blackhawk1331

Con

First of all, I started the debate. Therefore, I decide who has to construct the first argument, not you. Next, you didn't provide a definition for metaphysics or epistemology, so I will.

Epistemology - branch of philosophy that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge [1]
Metaphysics - branch of philosophy concerned with the ultimate nature of reality [1]

Since, once again, I am the one who started this debate, I decide which one of these it is, not you. I intended for this debate to be one of metaphysics. We are not concerned with investigating origin, nature, methods, or the limits of human knowledge. We are concerned with reality. The reality of whether or not I exist in this world as more than a concious form. I have to create a reasonable doubt that I exist as no more then a conscious form in this world. You must prove that I exist in this world as more then a conscious form. I don't really need to provide an argument first because without extremely strong evidence, you can't prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that I exist in this world as more than a conscious form.
I don't see how the matrix example proves anything in your favor. If anything, it destroys every argument you could make. If you argue anything in terms of the senses, your argument is instantly mute. A super advanced computer program, like that of the matrix, would be capable of tricking your mind, or consciousness, into believing that it was sensing things even though your flesh form is sitting in a tank feeding machines power in the real world.

Remember, it was specified in R1 that we weren't doing conclusions.

Vote con.
Puck

Pro

"I decide who has to construct the first argument, not you."

It's not about who decides, it's about the format of debating itself and proposing philosophical propositions. If you make a positive claim (as you do) the burden is upon yourself to uphold it. Until then there is no argument for me to make.

"I decide which one of these it is, not you."

Again, it's not a choice, it's what your position is that determines it.

"We are not concerned with investigating origin, nature, methods, or the limits of human knowledge."

Except we are, you even place it there yourself:

**"I am con in support that I don't exist in this world as more then a consciousness."

There is your positive claim. The deviation of the normative experience and knowledge - which is simply a reversal of the resolution you posted to fix the double negative.

**"Pro must prove that I exist in this world as a physical being beyond all reasonable doubt."

Proof and doubt are both epistemological concerns. That you wish for a metaphysical solution is irrelevant. You yourself place this firmly within epistemology.

"The reality of whether or not I exist in this world as more than a concious form."

Again your positive claim rears itself. That you word it negatively isn't the issue, since it's explicit you are talking about a position that is a deviation.

"You must prove that I exist in this world as more then a conscious form."

Incorrect - read your round 1 claim again: "Pro must prove that I exist in this world as a physical being beyond all reasonable doubt." Doubt is an epistemological concern precisely because it relates to knowledge; proof is an epistemological claim precisely because it relates to knowledge. If you provide no basis for doubting the proposition that you are a normal human - then my burden is fulfilled simply by recognising this. A dull debate sure, but sceptics such as yourself rely upon others playing the sceptic game, and that's simply not required.

"I don't really need to provide an argument first because without extremely strong evidence, you can't prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that I exist in this world as more than a conscious form."

I can, quite easily. I simply need to link a few textbooks on human physiology. Such as:
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.sinauer.com...

We both are quite aware of what the standard evidences are for these matters - and since you insist on providing no evidence contrary - there is simply no reason at all to doubt that you too are of the same class. If there is no provided function, whereby evidentially you can support the proposition that you are a deviation to the extent of your proposition, then by definition any doubt is both baseless, and therefore unreasonable, both in a looser colloquial sense, and in respect to "adheres to reason".

"I don't see how the matrix example proves anything in your favor. If anything, it destroys every argument you could make."

That's just your scepticism talking. :P No, the point is that *because* your argument (and the variants of it) rely on the proposition that there is no means to knowledge, it cannot **disprove** **anything**. By definition it cannot. A proposition that is neither true nor false, nor cannot ever be proven as true or false makes said claim arbitrary and useless - both as a metaphysical claim on reality, and an epistemological one on truth.

All it is your imagination. That is it. And since you insist that imagination requires no formalities like evidence and proof - there is no *reason* to treat it as valid in any sense.

"A super advanced computer program, like that of the matrix, would be capable of tricking your mind, or consciousness, into believing that it was sensing things even though your flesh form is sitting in a tank feeding machines power in the real world."

Again, imagination is not a proof. Nor is doubt a proof. The claim is in form of perceptual representationalism - the brain simply doesn't work that way - we don't have car shapes in our brain when we see a car. To argue that our position on neurology is incorrect requires you again to be providing proofs, but as we can see, proofs are the bane of the sceptic who wishes to rely on pure speculations as being valid - and since the proof would necessarily deny the validity of the proposition it seeks to support - well, it doesn't look good for the sceptic. You have not fulfilled your own requirements of proof and a basis for any doubt, let alone one of that magnitude. To "prove" something means to demonstrate that it is true. The concept truth means in accordance with reality. Thus direct sensory evidence is proof in the most fundamental terms - it is direct perception of reality.

As for reasonable doubt - you have provided no reason to doubt the standard proposition that we both recognise - that you are indeed a human body with the normal version of consciousness. Certainty is epistemological, like doubt, and relates to knowledge in context i.e., what you know. Since you provide no proof (and your position is that there can be none) - you have simply ensured no doubt is reasonable and thus the claim that you are simply human, can be adequately stated without doubt i.e., with certainty.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
Poor debate ruined by CON.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
blackhawk1331PuckTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Respect for Pro for attacking based on interpretation f reasonable doubt and reversing the intended BoP. Con could not defend against this very elegant attack and what was set up as an auto-win. 3:1 Pro