The Instigator
merlinator
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

I need help

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/18/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,294 times Debate No: 6277
Debate Rounds (1)
Comments (5)
Votes (4)

 

merlinator

Pro

Okay i was just informed a couple of hours ago that i am doing LD tomorrow for the first. I didin't even know what the LD topic was until today so i just barely came up with these arguments and I need some help finding the holes in them. If any one will help me out it will be much apreciated. I Also need help my V and VC. If anyone will help me out it will be much appreciated. Thank you.

Resolved: in a democratic society felons ought to retain the right to vote.
Obs1. Since the United States is the only one of 166 democratic nations in the world that bar felons from voting the resolution is implying the US is the above democratic society.
Democratic Society- Government in which the people participate either directly or indirectly by voting for representation.
Felon Disenfranchisement- Permanent removal of a felon's political rights
Felon- Somebody who is guilty of a serious crime that is punishable more severely than a misdemeanor.
V: Democracy?-This value is implied by the resolution and therefore is superior to all other value.
VC:
C1. Society uses disenfranchisement to protect the contestation of existing values.
Throughout history the United States has used disenfranchisement as a means to oppress different demographic groups. Women, African Americans, and the poor have had their political rights denied in order to maintain the status quo. The poor were first to gain the right to vote under President Jackson. Shortly thereafter a broad range of economic and political reforms were instituted. The same has happened after with women and African American enfranchisement.
(a)Disenfranchised groups are seen as sub-citizens, and enfranchisement helps gain status as equals. African Americans and Women were long seen as sub-human in United States history. They were treated as property not as people. This is true with felons also. Notice in the resolution it does not refer to felons as people that made some mistakes, the resolution refers to them as felons. This dehumanizing and further isolates them from society.
C2.Committing a felony is to broad a distinction for disenfranchisement.
There are no logical reasons why felons would be "worse voters" then other groups. We allow illiterates, grade school dropouts, the homeless, moral perverts, petty criminals, untreated alcoholics, and drug addicts to vote, but because someone committed a felony they are often automatically disqualified. There are many felons that are better informed and would make wiser choices than any of the above voter groups. Some felons may not be responsible enough to vote but this is no reason to punish those who have good judgment and are capable of voting responsibly.
C3.Permanent Felon disenfranchisement does not allow for change or remorse.
62% of felons are between the ages of 18-35. At this time in life most young males or the typical felon doesn't possess great judgment skills, or the ability to see the full consequences of their actions. As these felons get older they mature, gain judgment skills, and stop making decisions that lead back to prison; or keep going in and out of prison until they die. There is no reason permanently disenfranchise felons because they either; change and reintegrate into society, or they are in prison and can't vote anyway.
ViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46

Con

>I am going to take it that merlinator wants me to give him refutations and suggestions.

>Observation: Neg most likely agrees, Personally I would cite a source.

>Definitions are very bare. Easy to refute due to simplicity. Use:

*Democratic Society (democracy): government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power of the land is vested in the people and directly exercised by them

*Disenfranchisement: the revocation of the right to vote or suffrage to any individual or group of people, or rendering a vote less effective, or ineffective

*Felon: a person who has been convicted of a felony, which is sufficiently serious to be punishable by death or a term in state or federal prison, as distinguished from a misdemeanor

These were never refuted in my rounds.

>I hate that value and I slaughtered it in my debates. It's this simple: democracy has limits. That can easily be attacked by what is and is not societally reasonable. I would go with human rights.

>If you keep that value, use human rights as a criterion. If not, I certainly suggest democratic society as a value criterion. Basically, a purely democratic society BEST protects human rights.

>I like your idea in contention 1. It has a fundamentally simple yet effective idea. I'd recommend expanding. I know what you mean but a judge may not. Also, if you are going to have sub-points, have MORE THAN 1.

>Go ahead and kill your second contention. It is veeeeeeerry simply rebutted. You basically say that you trust felons to make decent choices. Why did they commit a felony then? I'll suggest a different replacement contention at the end of my response.

>Contention 3 is good in principle and true. HOWEVER, you have a burden of proof. You must prove the resolution in ALL cases. Saying that SOME felons deserve another chance will not work.

>Add a conclusion. No other way to put it.

>Here were some of my strategies (I went 4 - 0 and moved up through them):

:: Contention 2 ::

>My second contention is that disenfranchising felons does not fulfill any universally recognized penal goals; listed as retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation, vengeance and incapacitation. Disenfranchisement of felons does not fulfill any of these reasons to punish someone. To avenge a felony, one would not use disenfranchisement as this is not in any way proportioned to the crime. Violating suffrage is not a suitable method of retribution because it is also disproportioned to a felony. It quite obviously does not incapacitate or rehabilitate the felon. It is clear that felon disenfranchisement does not deter crimes, because a felon undeterred by the possibility of being incarcerated will not be deterred by the threat of disenfranchisement, and thus does not stop felons from committing future crimes.

:: Contention 3 ::

>My third contention is that disenfranchisement limits rights guaranteed to individuals in a democratic society. The disenfranchisement of an individual is cruel in that is revokes the individual�ƒ�'�‚���ƒ�����‚����‚���ƒ�����‚����‚��s right to choose their leader. It values the right to vote at a different level than other rights, which are not revoked (such as the right to operate a motor vehicle or the right to drink alcohol). According to �ƒ�'�‚���ƒ�����‚����‚���ƒ�€�"the Sentencing Project�ƒ�'�‚���ƒ�����‚����‚���ƒ�€š�‚��, racial disparities in the criminal justice system have made it so that about 13% of black men in the United States are not legally allowed to vote, as opposed to the roughly 9.5% of whites that cannot vote. Allowing for disenfranchisement ruins racial equality as well as human rights. Ergo this should not happen in a democratic society.

In your SECOND ROUND, define citizen:

A resident of a city or town, especially one entitled to vote and enjoy other privileges there

Felons DO NOT lose citizen ship. Hinty hint hint hint USE THAT

Use taxation without representation. I didn't use it myself but it gave me problems while I was Neg.

>Good luck, do well, case makes the day (it really does), tell me how you do.

(Don't hesitate to ask me questions)
Debate Round No. 1
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Metz 8 years ago
Metz
If anyone is still into this topic and wants to debate me shoot me a challenge...(I want Neg because I want to test out a case that I only got to run at one tournament...)
Posted by ViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46 8 years ago
ViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46
Nah, that probably won't matter. America has cities and towns in it so if they say something about that they really haven't refuted you.
Posted by merlinator 8 years ago
merlinator
Hey thanks alot i really apreciate the help. I have one question though with the define citezen as a resident of a city or town, am i just hoping that they miss it and it comes back to bite them?
Posted by ViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46 8 years ago
ViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46
Sorry about the weird A's I DON'T KNOW WHY IT DOES THAT!!!
Posted by LightC 8 years ago
LightC
Problems with your case: First, democracy is less superior to the value of a democratic society. I.e. a democratic society is one that has democratic ideals, but does not necessarily have to take on all characteristics of a democracy. For example, a republic is a democratic society, but it is not technically a democracy. Second, your contention 1 is much to open for "punishment" debates. your opponenet can easily extend your logic and come to the conclusion that all punishments are dejustified for that reason. Third, your contention 2 can be attacked because your opponent could argue "moral lapse." I.e. he can argue that when someone says rapes for instance he/she should not have the right to vote because they have created an act which created moral holes. Part of the Social Contract argument. Fourth, your contention 3 can be argued as untopical. Since the resolution never specifies how long or when the disenfranchisement would occur, your opponent could easily argue that he only needs to prove that it CAN happen. Ergo it doesn't have to be indefinite.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by MasterET 8 years ago
MasterET
merlinatorViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46Tied
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Vote Placed by VoodooChild 8 years ago
VoodooChild
merlinatorViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46Tied
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Vote Placed by FeatherintheWind 8 years ago
FeatherintheWind
merlinatorViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46Tied
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Vote Placed by merlinator 8 years ago
merlinator
merlinatorViRiUnCteSiGnUmRuTiLuS46Tied
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