The Instigator
harrytruman
Pro (for)
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The Contender
talmid
Con (against)
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0 Points

I should be a Sikh

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/8/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 298 times Debate No: 86225
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
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harrytruman

Pro

I have to address this, Talmid thinks that all non-Jews are going to hell, so I have a question for him; Is that in Judaism? Talmid acts as if it is in this debate:
http://www.debate.org...
As we know, I admitted that I was wrong about Christianity in this debate for the following reason:
I like not to think of myself as a hypocrite, if this is so, and with Muslims I would advise them to ditch Islam because of this moral fallacy, then I cannot remain a Christian and not be a hypocrite for it because it is present in Christianity.
If this moral fallacy is in Judaism, tell me now, because then I will forget about it and never consider it again, I will convert to Sikhism, I will buy a turban and a Guru Granth and become a vegetarian.
I cannot have a double standard, this moral fallacy is evil enough for me to look at no further evidence than its presence in the New Testament, and for that to be enough to drop Christianity all together. I must apply that to Judaism too, or I would be a hypocrite.
But if it is NOT in Judaism, tell me now so I don"t make the mistake of leaving a good religion. Say it publicly that it was not in the Torah and you made it up.
talmid

Con

LIES!:
I never said that non-Jews go to Hell. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. Show me where I ever said that; precisely the opposite in the religion of the Jews.
In Judaism, anyone can merit eternal reward, even gentiles. However, they have to abide to the Seven Noahide Laws. There are many more Noahide Laws, but the MAIN ones consist of seven. They are:

LAWS!:
1. Do not worship an idol
2. Do not curse G-d
3. Do not kill
4. Do not commit sex crimes (adultery, homosexuality, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality)
5. Do not steal (this includes kidnapping and rape, for when you kidnap a person, you are "stealing him")
6. Do not eat from a living animal (if you tear an limb from an animal which is alive, that piece of meat is impure forever and can never be consumed. If you want to eat from an animal; that is permitted, but before you take anything from it, it must be DEAD.)
7. Establish court systems to enforce law, justice, and order. Not necessarily only the laws mentioned above, but everything which is necessary to keep a civil environment.

ADDITIONAL INFO:
If a gentile lives his life abiding to this code, he merits a share in the world to come. If he dies without ever having accepted this law upon himself, then he is judged. Each man is judged differently, according to how he was brought up. For example, a Hindu who was brainwashed to believe in his idols will not receive the same punishment as someone from a Noahide family who decided to worship idols. Instead, he might come back in a reincarnation to fix his crime, and then he can ascend to Heaven. This is why very often you might see a man who dies at thirty - because he completed his purpose in life and it is time for him to move on. While it is true that gentiles do receive an afterlife, it is not comparable in the slightest to the Jewish afterlife, which is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH (much x 10000) greater. However, it is very unrecommended for a gentile to convert. The reason for this is because the Jews have 613 laws, which are obviously much more burdensome (that is why they reeceive greater reward). G-d judges Jews harsher than he judges gentiles, because he expects more from them. If you wish to stay on the safe side, it's better to remain a gentile. However, if you are 100% sure beyond all doubt that you'll be able to live a kosher Jewish life, then go ahead and convert; for the sake of your reward.

SIKHISM:
It is forbidden for you personally to become a Sikh because in Sikhism you will obviously not be living a holy Jewish life wearing tefillin, abstaining from illicit relations, keeping Shabbat, kosher, etc. As for a gentile becoming a Sikh; I am unsure whether it is permissible. Technically, they do worship one god. However, I have not done the research as to what they believe this god of theirs is. Therefore, I wouldn't take any risks. It could be a corporeal deity like Zeus (which is complete idolatry, even if you dont build any statues/idols). I can understand why you want to become a Sikh instead of being a Jew, while the evidence is in your face that the Jews are the only ones who adhere to the true religion. The reason is simple: Because you feel unable to follow the laws of the Torah. I assure you that it isn't as hard as you think. Shabbat - if you do it right, it can be paradise. No phone calls, no school, no work, no electronics. We rest, family gathers together, we eat delicious meals, we sing beautiful melodies, we learn Torah, we engage in halachic discussions, etc etc etc. The whole thing feels like Heaven on Earth, IF YOU DO IT RIGHT! Tefillin is not that hard either. I mean, come on. How hard is it to wake up early in the morning, wash netilat yadayim, put on tefillin, say Shema Yisrael, and take them off?! Two minutes! What's the big deal? Then you can go back to sleep!
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

"LIES!:
I never said that non-Jews go to Hell. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. Show me where I ever said that; precisely the opposite in the religion of the Jews.
In Judaism, anyone can merit eternal reward, even gentiles. However, they have to abide to the Seven Noahide Laws. There are many more Noahide Laws, but the MAIN ones consist of seven. They are:

LAWS!:
1. Do not worship an idol
2. Do not curse G-d
3. Do not kill
4. Do not commit sex crimes (adultery, homosexuality, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality)
5. Do not steal (this includes kidnapping and rape, for when you kidnap a person, you are "stealing him")
6. Do not eat from a living animal (if you tear an limb from an animal which is alive, that piece of meat is impure forever and can never be consumed. If you want to eat from an animal; that is permitted, but before you take anything from it, it must be DEAD.)
7. Establish court systems to enforce law, justice, and order. Not necessarily only the laws mentioned above, but everything which is necessary to keep a civil environment."

Firstly I meant that you thought that non- Jews as in people not in according with Judaism are going to hell, I meant Jews as in the religious group, not the ethnicity. It's right here:
"Well we believe that idolitors have a special place in hell, which, unfortunately, means you are included."

That's a way to get people to convert!

"ADDITIONAL INFO:
If a gentile lives his life abiding to this code, he merits a share in the world to come. If he dies without ever having accepted this law upon himself, then he is judged. Each man is judged differently, according to how he was brought up. For example, a Hindu who was brainwashed to believe in his idols will not receive the same punishment as someone from a Noahide family who decided to worship idols. Instead, he might come back in a reincarnation to fix his crime, and then he can ascend to Heaven. This is why very often you might see a man who dies at thirty - because he completed his purpose in life and it is time for him to move on. While it is true that gentiles do receive an afterlife, it is not comparable in the slightest to the Jewish afterlife, which is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH (much x 10000) greater. However, it is very unrecommended for a gentile to convert. The reason for this is because the Jews have 613 laws, which are obviously much more burdensome (that is why they reeceive greater reward). G-d judges Jews harsher than he judges gentiles, because he expects more from them. If you wish to stay on the safe side, it's better to remain a gentile. However, if you are 100% sure beyond all doubt that you'll be able to live a kosher Jewish life, then go ahead and convert; for the sake of your reward."

I wonder where these specifics are mentioned in the Torah.

"SIKHISM:
It is forbidden for you personally to become a Sikh because in Sikhism you will obviously not be living a holy Jewish life wearing tefillin, abstaining from illicit relations, keeping Shabbat, kosher, etc. As for a gentile becoming a Sikh; I am unsure whether it is permissible. Technically, they do worship one god. However, I have not done the research as to what they believe this god of theirs is. Therefore, I wouldn't take any risks. It could be a corporeal deity like Zeus (which is complete idolatry, even if you dont build any statues/idols). I can understand why you want to become a Sikh instead of being a Jew, while the evidence is in your face that the Jews are the only ones who adhere to the true religion. The reason is simple: Because you feel unable to follow the laws of the Torah. I assure you that it isn't as hard as you think. Shabbat - if you do it right, it can be paradise. No phone calls, no school, no work, no electronics. We rest, family gathers together, we eat delicious meals, we sing beautiful melodies, we learn Torah, we engage in halachic discussions, etc etc etc. The whole thing feels like Heaven on Earth, IF YOU DO IT RIGHT! Tefillin is not that hard either. I mean, come on. How hard is it to wake up early in the morning, wash netilat yadayim, put on tefillin, say Shema Yisrael, and take them off?! Two minutes! What's the big deal? Then you can go back to sleep!"

Sikhism does NOT have a corporal deity! You may not be researched into it much, but I am, it has so many similarities and NO differences! All laws are the same, they re vegetarians so kosher is no problem, illicit sexual activity is banned, covering your head, lots of stuff!
Teflon and Shabbat, they don't have that, I do't think, but here is a site to show you what Sikhism is:

http://www.realsikhism.com...

Here is verses that are virtually identical:

Sikhism Scripture:
"There is only the One Supreme Lord; there is no other at all. Spirit, soul and body, all belong to Him; whatever pleases His Will, comes to pass." (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 45).
Sikhism Scripture: Piece 1:
"There is only the One Supreme Lord; there is no other at all."

2 Samuel 7:22:
"Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."

Sikhism Scripture: Piece 2:
"Spirit, soul and body, all belong to Him;"

Ezekiel 18:4:
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die."

Sikhism Scripture: Piece 3:
"Whatever pleases His Will comes to pass."

Job 42:2:
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Sikhism Scripture:
"He is neither born and nor does He die." (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1).

Sikhism Scripture:
"Since You are my Lord and Master, what is there for me to fear? Who else should I praise besides You? You are the One and only, and because of You all things exist; there is nothing at all for me without You. O Father, I have seen that this world is poison. Save me O Lord of the Universe! Your Name is my only support. You know completely the condition of my mind; who else could I go to explain it? Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the whole world has gone crazy; One finds peace by receiving Naam. What shall I say? Unto whom shall I speak? Whatever I have to say, I say it to God. Everything which exists was created by You. You are my hope, forever and ever. If you bestow greatness, then it is Your greatness; here and hereafter, I meditate on You. God of Nanak is forever the Provider of peace; Your Name is my only strength" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 382).

Biblical Scripture:
Psalms 104:32-34
"He looks at the earth, and it trembles; He touches the mountains, and they smoke. I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. Let my meditation be pleasing to Him; As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.""
Psalm 9:1
"Those who know your name trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you."
Psalms 118:6
"The LORD is for me; I will not fear; What can man do to me?"
Psalm 103:13-14
"Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him. For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust."
Psalms 18:2:
"The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower."

Also, Teflon is hard to get, I'm not even sure what it is! A metal, a cloth, a mineral?
talmid

Con

IDOLATRY:
Idol worshipers generally have no share in the world to come, but there are exceptions; those being a tinok shenishba, as I explained above, in the case of the brainwashed Hindus.

SOURCES:
- As for a gentile who abides to the Seven Laws, see Maimonides' Mishneh Torah; Hilchot Teshuvah 3:5 "The righteous of the non-Jews also have a portion in the World to Come" There is an ancient tradition that three kings and four commoners have no share in the World to Come, which is recorded in the Tract of Sanhedrin's Chapter of Chelek. The commoners are: Balaam, Doeg, Ahitophel, and Gehazi. The kings are: Jeroboam, Ahab and Manasseh. Notice the first one, Balaam. Balaam is said to have no share in the world to come. Balaam was a gentile. Thus, we can conclude that gentiles do have a share in the world to come, as evidenced by Balaam being the exception.
- As for people being judged differently based upon the environment in which they are raised, this is simple common knowledge. I don't think a source is required, but if you will be stubborn, see Tinok Shenishba.
-
As for the reincarnation, that's actually a deep thing. It's all recorded in Rabbi Isaac Luria's Shaar Hagilgulim (lit. gateway to reincarnations)
- As for the Jewish afterlife being greater than that of the gentiles, see the famous Mishnah in Avot 4:17, "And one hour of pleasure in the world to come is better than all the time in this world."

SIKHISM:
They worship a different god then. Hashem never said that we should be vegetarians and wear turbans. Completely different god. For the gentiles, perhaps it's okay, but certainly not for a Jew.

TEFILLIN:
Why's it hard? Just by a pair online.
Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

"IDOLATRY:
Idol worshipers generally have no share in the world to come, but there are exceptions; those being a tinok shenishba, as I explained above, in the case of the brainwashed Hindus."

The way you phrased it and used the term "Idol worshiper," made it sound like you were refering to people of other religions.

SOURCES:
- As for a gentile who abides to the Seven Laws, see Maimonides' Mishneh Torah; Hilchot Teshuvah 3:5 "The righteous of the non-Jews also have a portion in the World to Come" There is an ancient tradition that three kings and four commoners have no share in the World to Come, which is recorded in the Tract of Sanhedrin's Chapter of Chelek. The commoners are: Balaam, Doeg, Ahitophel, and Gehazi. The kings are: Jeroboam, Ahab and Manasseh. Notice the first one, Balaam. Balaam is said to have no share in the world to come. Balaam was a gentile. Thus, we can conclude that gentiles do have a share in the world to come, as evidenced by Balaam being the exception."

I know that, we have no problem here.

"- As for people being judged differently based upon the environment in which they are raised, this is simple common knowledge. I don't think a source is required, but if you will be stubborn, see Tinok Shenishba."

I never contested this.

"- As for the reincarnation, that's actually a deep thing. It's all recorded in Rabbi Isaac Luria's Shaar Hagilgulim (lit. gateway to reincarnations)"

I don't know how this came up, but now that you mention it, this is another thing that the Sikhs have in common with the Jews, if you live your life right, you go to heaven, if you don't, you get reincarnated until you get it right.

"- As for the Jewish afterlife being greater than that of the gentiles, see the famous Mishnah in Avot 4:17, "And one hour of pleasure in the world to come is better than all the time in this world."

OK, thank you!

"SIKHISM:
They worship a different god then. Hashem never said that we should be vegetarians and wear turbans. Completely different god. For the gentiles, perhaps it's okay, but certainly not for a Jew."

The Guru Granth never "orders" it, it just recommends it, just like the Nazarene vow is never "ordered" it is just recommended. And this is actually very similar, no meat, don't cut your hair, plus, the Torah does not say you should wear a turban, it says you should cover your hair, just like the Guru Granth says to cover your hair, it's just that by tradition, Sikhs chose to do this via Turban, whereas Jews chose to do this via- I can never remember the word for it, those "Jew-cap" thingy's.

"TEFILLIN:
Why's it hard? Just by a pair online."

I know, I was just wondering what it is, and where the tradition came from.
talmid

Con

SIKH AFTERLIFE:
You are leading me to believe that the Sikhs believe that a person will not achieve Olam Haba unless he has lived a moderate life. If he is evil, he will be reincarnated, to try again. In that case, they do not believe in any divine punishment. A person is evil, he dies, he comes back, he lives a righteous life, and he merits a portion? He needs to be punished, hence the concept of Gehinnom.

SIKHISM PER SE:
The fact that Sikhs do not publicly recognize the Seven Laws and the G-d of Israel makes the whole thing separate from the rest of the Noahides. I am unfamiliar with the religion but even if it is monotheistic, you can say the same of Islam. Thus, a Muslim will convert to Judaism and continue to believe in Muhammad. It simply does not work.

TEFILLIN:
The tradition of tefillin, like all other traditions, all originate from Moses on Sinai. Many of the Biblical commandments are vague. For example, we read in the Torah that a Jew must circumcise his son when he turns 8 days old. What if that Jew is not a surgeon? What if there is no father, but only a mother, does she have to do the job? What if the baby is ill and cannot undergo the operation? What if the circumcision is on Shabbat or a holiday? Many many laws. Such laws are not written in the Written Torah, but we know them only through the Oral Torah, which was NOT written down, but it was passed down from generation to generation by memory; teacher to student, father to son. Eventually, people were becoming less and less scholarly. Thus, the rabbis feared it would be forgotten. Ergo, they wrote it all down over a period of about 200-300 of years, if I remember correctly. The rabbis who wrote it down are known as the Tanna'im (singular: tanna) Rabbi Judah the Prince, the last tanna, gathered together all of this tradition that they wrote down and compiled, organized and wrote down in an orderly and precise fashion. The work of Rabbi Judah is known as the Mishnah. After Rabbi Judah, rabbis known as the Amora'im (singular: amora) wrote a commentary on the Mishnah. Their commentary is known as the Gemara. In the Gemara, you'll also find additional tradition from Moses on Sinai which was not included within the canonical texts of the Mishnah. These traditions are known as Baraitot (singular: Baraita). The amoraim did a stupendous job explaining confusing concepts in the Mishnah. The Mishnah and Gemara together can be referred to as the Talmud, or the Oral Law.

Shalom.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Yavneh 1 year ago
Yavneh
Also, harryt, if you read R' Moshe Feinstein about non-Orthodox Jews today, you will see that the huge majority of them are considered tinokot shenishbu, 'captured children', those who did not actively rebel against Judaism but rather were never really inside the heart of Judaism. These unfortunate souls are not responsible for their rebellion.
Posted by Yavneh 1 year ago
Yavneh
@talmid

Believe it or not, I was considering that Gemara while I wrote. But, although I have not studied the sugya, from hearsay, I have heard it only talks about losing a chelek in Olam HaBa, not entering Gehinnom.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
You would like the Sikhs talmid, they will remind you of you, say you were to go up to a Sikh, and ask him "do you believe that Jesus is G-d?"
He would reply somewhere along these lines:
"No, Jesus cannot be G-d, according to Guru Granth 283, G-d is not limited to any physical form, so these Christians are actually worshiping a regular dude, and according to Guru Ji, if you worship people instead of G-d, you go to hell."

Ha ha ha ha ha!
I love these Sikh people! O guess I can write another reason why not to believe the New Testament down!
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
Firstly, there is a divine punishment in Sikhism, it's more like a purgatory, then you get reincarnated.
Nextly, the Sikhs don't deny the Jews covenant with G-d, it's just that it isn't conventionally in their belief systems.
Posted by talmid 1 year ago
talmid
These are the tracts of the Oral Torah. They have the same authority as the Written Torah.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
I never even knew these books were in the Torah.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
I never even knew these books were in the Torah.
Posted by talmid 1 year ago
talmid
Perhaps you're ignoring Sanhedrin Chapter Chelek then. It lists people who have no share in the world to come. Among them is the apikoros.
Posted by Yavneh 1 year ago
Yavneh
Harrytruman, take it from me. My dad is a Rabbi, I learned all of Shas Mishnayot (all 4,192 paragraphs of the Mishnah), and shteig (learn) quite frequently. I have never heard that non-believers go to heck.

On the contrary, I have heard that Gentiles can quite easily achieve a portion in the world to come by following these 7 simple laws:

1) Do not murder
2) Do not worship other gods
3) Do not have illicit intimate relationships
4) Do not steal
5) Do not 'bless' (a euphemism for curse) G-d
6) Set up a legal system and courts
7) Do not eat a limb torn off from a live animal
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