The Instigator
kels1123
Pro (for)
Winning
46 Points
The Contender
goldspurs
Con (against)
Losing
30 Points

I think for the job that they do enlisted soldiers deserve more pay.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/24/2007 Category: News
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 6,100 times Debate No: 948
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (24)

 

kels1123

Pro

I am debating enlisted soldiers only because I do not know enough about officers and their pay scale. Also I am not debating that they signed up for it , so that is the pay they deserve. I do not think that enlisted soldiers get enough pay for the sacrifices they make. We need an army and we need soldiers. They protect our country. Soldiers must follow all orders no matter what. Soldiers have to miss holidays, bdays, births of their children, anniversaries, graduations, weddings, etc. They have to go long stretches of time without seeing their families. It is not an easy life being a soldier. They risk their lives in their jobs especially when they are at war. I believe while soldiers are at war , they deserve more pay. There are soldiers with families that are barely making ends meet. I don't think this is fair. I think for all our soldiers risk and sacrifice a bit more pay is deserved. I'm not saying they should be rich , I am just saying they should be able to make enough money to have no struggles while they are away. The NG soldiers suffer because some own businesses and have to shut them down whyile they are gone, that can cause them to suffer in the long run. Many of them take a huge pay cut when deployed in the war because their civilian job pays much more money than the military does. Therefore their bills (mortgages , cars etc ) may be more than they can handle under the pay cut they take.
goldspurs

Con

I would like to start my argument off by saying as an enlisted Soldier myself I think you have good intentions with your argument.

You say that you will not debate,"that they signed up for it , so that is the pay they deserve". I think you should reconsider because nobody should start a career whether it be in the military or as a civilian without seeing if they can cover their current debts with the salary they will receive.

Another point I would like to make is that the military receives many benefits that are never seen in the civilian sector. I receive medical and dental for my dependents and myself at a very cheap insurance rate. I also receive 30 days paid vacation a year, and 10 paid holidays a year. I am able to debate you now because I am on a 4 day weekendristmas and I will receive another 4 day weekend for New Year's. I also have my PX and Commissary privileges where I can receive goods without being taxed. I am also able to receive thousands in free college EVERY year! The list of benefits are long and could fill up my entire argument. If you care to look at a few here is the link:

http://www.militarybenefits.com...

Most military jobs either pay more or close to their civilian counterpart
Granted the military version can be dangerous, I believe we receive ample pay for our job. When in a hostile enviroment you receive upwards of over a thousand dollars extra each month, plus it is tax free. In my experience in the military the only people that I have seen that have had debt problems are people that do not know how to properly manage their money. No one should serve their goverment with the intentions on being rich. In 2004, the average enlisted military employee earned $42,664.48 annually while the average full-time, year-round civilian employee earned only $36,284.

I think JFK said it best,"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
Debate Round No. 1
kels1123

Pro

I would like to start my argument off by saying as an enlisted Soldier myself I think you have good intentions with your argument.

//You say that you will not debate,"that they signed up for it , so that is the pay they deserve". I think you should reconsider because nobody should start a career whether it be in the military or as a civilian without seeing if they can cover their current debts with the salary they will receive.//

I am not debating this because as I have said I am not debating on whether a soldier cares that they are paid enough . my husband would get paid pennies to fight for our country. Remember the families go through alot at home and the family doesn't always agree that they can get by on what the military pays , however the soldier may feel otherwise or just want to be a soldier so much that they do not care.

//Another point I would like to make is that the military receives many benefits that are never seen in the civilian sector. I receive medical and dental for my dependents and myself at a very cheap insurance rate. I also receive 30 days paid vacation a year, and 10 paid holidays a year. I am able to debate you now because I am on a 4 day weekendristmas and I will receive another 4 day weekend for New Year's. I also have my PX and Commissary privileges where I can receive goods without being taxed. I am also able to receive thousands in free college EVERY year! The list of benefits are long and could fill up my entire argument. If you care to look at a few here is the link:

http://www.militarybenefits.com......//

I am a military wife , I do know what the benefits are. My husband had much better insurance with his civilian job than he does with Tricare . I have to pay $16 towards my daughters last doctors appointment as opposed to his civilian coverage where I paid $5 a visit. Not all military can get tricare prime as some do not live in a state where there are many military facilities. In order to get Tricare Prime , I would have had to drive about 45 mins from my house to take my 4 year old to the doctor.
As for holidays the majority of holidays are also paid by civilian jobs as well and most people at their civilian jobs get 2 weeks vacation , but earn more time as they work there. As for that many days , I do not think 30 days paid vacation is that much when you may not see your family for 1 year or 24 months even.

//Most military jobs either pay more or close to their civilian counterpart
Granted the military version can be dangerous, I believe we receive ample pay for our job. When in a hostile enviroment you receive upwards of over a thousand dollars extra each month, plus it is tax free. In my experience in the military the only people that I have seen that have had debt problems are people that do not know how to properly manage their money. No one should serve their goverment with the intentions on being rich. In 2004, the average enlisted military employee earned $42,664.48 annually while the average full-time, year-round civilian employee earned only $36,284.//

My husband had a job in a union making great money and the army doesnt even begin to cover a portion of that. Again a civilian job , also has the benefits of being able to be a stable family unit at all times. A soldier and his (or her ) family give up quite alot of time together. Also , Maybe you know soldiers that recieve over $1000 dollars extra a month while in a hostile environment, but I can tell you as my husband is there right now he is not recieveing anywhere close to an extra $1000 or more a month. He receives hostile fire sporadically. which is about $220 and then he receives $125 family separation ... that in no way amounts to close to the amount of $1000 . Taxes are not taken out , absolutely BS .. They take out federal and state taxes every check .. Randomly we get a check back for $100 or so... which doesn't equal at all what they take out. Also remember cost of living is dramatically different state to state .Also some soldiers may have 5 kids , some may have 3, some none. I know many military families that scrimp and save and are having financial problems. Also some military families can not live on a base to help them out because there are no bases near them.

//I think JFK said it best,"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."//

My husband doesnt ask what his country can do for him , I am just saying that I think soldiers DESERVE more money for the job that they do.

Thank you for your service , you may not think you deserve more pay, my husband doesn't , but I do. I think the sacrafices that the men and women in the service make. are amazing and more than any person in any other job makes.
goldspurs

Con

I think you should reconsider addressing the point that Soldiers did sign up for the pay they receive. It is a very valid point in this argument. I have already addressed it and have not seen anything from you to refute this point so I will leave it alone from here on.

"My husband had much better insurance with his civilian job than he does with Tricare."

Because your husband had better insurance in his last job is not justification for better insurance in the military. I have never had to pay anything for any of my wife's doctor visits so you having to pay $16 is news to me. There are many positives to Tricare tha civilian companies might not provide. This link provides a list of all of the features of Tricare, as there are too many to list on here. I also pay about $15 each month for Life Insurance worth $500,000. That is cheap for any line of work.

http://www.tricare.mil...

"Not all military can get tricare prime as some do not live in a state where there are many military facilities. In order to get Tricare Prime , I would have had to drive about 45 mins from my house to take my 4 year old to the doctor."

A 45 minute drive doesn't sound that bad to go to a doctor. Before I joined the Army I had to drive over an hour to see our family doctor. The point is you are still being cared for. And you failed to point out that a visit to ANY emergency room is automatically covered by Tricare without having to get referred first.

"I do not think 30 days paid vacation is that much when you may not see your family for 1 year or 24 months even."

Who joins the military with the expectations of being able to see Mom and Pop every weekend? A whole month of paid leave is more than adequate for service members.

"Taxes are not taken out , absolutely BS .. They take out federal and state taxes every check"

I am sorry but you are wrong. Soldiers are not required to pay tax in a combat zone. That includes both state and federal. You are only required to spend part of a day in a combat zone per month to get ALL of the benefits of being in a hostile enviroment. When you add up the Imminent danger, family seperation pay, and no taxes it comes out to over a thousand for most Soldiers. Not to mention the 1 time payment of a thousand dollars just for going to a combat zone. This link should help clear things up for you.

http://www.il.ngb.army.mil...

"Also remember cost of living is dramatically different state to state .Also some soldiers may have 5 kids , some may have 3, some none."

Yes, and this is why Soldiers receive diffrent housing allowances (BAH) based on the zip code they reside in. Cost of Living Allowance (COLA), which can be over $1000 for some places, is provided to Soldiers that reside in areas with extraordinary living costs.

"I know many military families that scrimp and save and are having financial problems."

The 2008 Basic Allowance Housing (BAH) rates have jumped an average of 7.2% for the military. This means hundreds of dollars more for most families. Not too mention the base pay raise we will receive at the beginning of the year.

http://www.militarytimes.com...

"Also some military families can not live on a base to help them out because there are no bases near them."

Living on a base does not help you out. I have always avoided living on base because they can be a stickler when moving to a new post. Most families stationed on base choose to collect housing allowance and NOT live on the installation in goverment provided housing.

" My husband doesnt ask what his country can do for him , I am just saying that I think soldiers DESERVE more money for the job that they do.

Thank you for your service , you may not think you deserve more pay, my husband doesn't , but I do. I think the sacrafices that the men and women in the service make. are amazing and more than any person in any other job makes."

Please don't think I was implying that does that. Obviously he wouldn't be serving if he thought that. When my wife discovered I was debating you on this she immediately took your side. I do understand what you are trying to argue, but the goverment provides decent pay and plenty of excellent benefits for us in the service.

"My husband had a job in a union making great money and the army doesnt even begin to cover a portion of that."

If a millionaire joined the Army, could the Army be blamed because he doesn't make the same amount now? Like my Drill Sergeant told me in Basic," No one put a gun to your head and made you sign the contract". I should of asked this in my first round but exactly what do you think Soldiers should be getting paid?

I salute you as an Army wife, because all of us Soldiers know that your job IS the toughest in the world, but I think being able to serve my country is the greatest payment of all.
Debate Round No. 2
kels1123

Pro

Okay it may be valid , but I am only debating that they deserve more pay , not if it is fair that they get paid what they do. Remember athletes and pop stars

There is no consideration of family size though , one man can have a wife and no kids and another may have a wife and 8 kids and they make the same. Also BAH doesn't always account for the high prices in an area.

Some are going up, some stay the same and some go down, ours is going up about $60 a month. While the BAH for soldiers with no dependents in our area is going up about $200 a month.

Thats because your wife understands how many sacrafices are made as do I . Soldiers are humble and don't think of yourselves as heroes .. but be assured you all are. Thank you for your kid words and thank your wife as well , I agree we do have one of the toughest jobs in the military , hey maybe its us wives that deserve more pay lol. :)
goldspurs

Con

I have really enjoyed this debate. Definetly the most civil debate I have had so far. I wish you would of told me exactly how much you think Soldiers should get paid.

"There is no consideration of family size though , one man can have a wife and no kids and another may have a wife and 8 kids and they make the same."

There is a diffrence between having dependents and not for BAH. With ANY job you should know whether or not you can afford to bring another child into the world or not. No job in the world will pay somebody more because they decide to have another child. That falls into personal responsibility.

"Some are going up, some stay the same and some go down, ours is going up about $60 a month. While the BAH for soldiers with no dependents in our area is going up about $200 a month."

I must say that sounds weird. I am receiving almost $300 extra a month for my housing allowance in my area.

If you can get the goverment to pay Army Wives for what they do go fot it. Lord knows you deserve it. I really don't see anything wrong with the current pay system. The Soldiers I have seen with debt problems usually are not living within their means. I have already shown that the military family makes more than the average family. Like I said you heart is in the right place, I just don't see the justification for paying more than is already given. With the job skill and education you can receive while in the military you can get out and usually get a great job. The Army even has a program for Soldiers getting out to set them up with jobs. They have job fairs all of the time at any installation. Thanks again for the debate. Take Care!

-Brandon
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by patriots16-0 9 years ago
patriots16-0
goldspurs you havnt accepted my debate yet
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
I wouldn't say lucky when thats the average across the board. I would say unlucky for those who didn't get it.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Yes, It is when you are one of the lucky ones... :)
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
On average it went up over 7% though. Thats a pretty nice jump.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Thank-you for the debate :)Also Thanks for your service :) Housing rates went up or down depending on zip code :) Just thought I'd explain that since I didn't have a chance. Some places it went up , others it went down , some stayed the same :)
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
well married soldier are separated from their wife and child. Is a single soldier having to be separated from the people they support. Also you can't compare being a soldier and going to war with any civilian job. They are very different on a soldier and on their family. I do think all soldiers should get more pay. I know some soldiers get married for the money and I personally think thats crazy . I was married to my husband before he joined. To marry for the small amount extra they get is not worth it too me. Also I completely agree with what youre saying about govt contracts. My husband was already offered a job to go back... private contractor or a security job $200000 for the year.
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
Married soldiers also get "separation pay" when they are deployed.
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
Enlisted men should get paid more considering how much the government pays civilian contractors in Iraq. Soldiers who sometimes make anywhere from 1/2 to 1/10th of what civilian contractors make train the civilians themselves. THere is no way these government contracts are cheaper than paying soldiers more. Civilian contractors are not held accountable for their actions in Iraq (maybe that's why they get paid so much), and do not do better jobs than soldiers do. Of course, civilian contracts are partially what drive the occupation of Iraq so nothing is going to change.
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
...and I know soldiers who got "married" just for the extra pay.
Posted by Vikuta 9 years ago
Vikuta
I don't think civilian employers consider what you "need" when they pay you. They don't care if you have dependents or are married. I'd like a house too...living in the barracks sucks. Married soldiers do get paid more just because they are married.
24 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by kels1123 8 years ago
kels1123
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by the_conservative 9 years ago
the_conservative
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Conservative 9 years ago
Conservative
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Tatarize 9 years ago
Tatarize
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by patriots16-0 9 years ago
patriots16-0
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Richard89 9 years ago
Richard89
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by PreacherFred 9 years ago
PreacherFred
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by padfo0t 9 years ago
padfo0t
kels1123goldspursTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03