The Instigator
GreatDebateMate
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
mongeese
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

I will not contradict myself

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/7/2010 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 754 times Debate No: 12497
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

GreatDebateMate

Pro

Here is my challenge as promised in rule 12 of the last debate.
mongeese

Con

I would like to thank GreatDebateMate for challenging me to this debate.

1. A barber cuts only hair of all men who do not cut their own hair. Does the barber cut his own hair.

2. Does the answer to this question allow for the possibility of the answer to this question being positive?

3. Do you agree with all of your current positions on your "The BIG Issues"?

4. Is it appropriate for the government to discriminate (make a distinction) based on who a person lives with, if anybody?

5. Is it ever appropriate for any voluntary actions between two consenting parties to be regulated by a third party?

6. Should all carbon emmisions be regulated by the government?

7. Is Barack Obama usually Right?

8. Is Rush Limbaugh always Right?

9. Is Rush Limbaugh usually Right?

10. Do you agree with the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence?
Debate Round No. 1
GreatDebateMate

Pro

1. A barber cuts only hair of all men who do not cut their own hair. Does the barber cut his own hair.
No, he must be bald or the sign doesn't make sense.

2. Does the answer to this question allow for the possibility of the answer to this question being positive?
No

3. Do you agree with all of your current positions on your "The BIG Issues"?
Yes

4. Is it appropriate for the government to discriminate (make a distinction) based on who a person lives with, if anybody? I'm not sure if you mean discriminate as in hiring, but for statistical purposes, I will say yes.

5. Is it ever appropriate for any voluntary actions between two consenting parties to be regulated by a third party?
Yes

6. Should all carbon emmisions be regulated by the government?
No

7. Is Barack Obama usually Right?
No

8. Is Rush Limbaugh always Right?
Hell no

9. Is Rush Limbaugh usually Right?
no

10. Do you agree with the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence?
No, not entirely. I don't have the whole thing memorized either, but basically no.
mongeese

Con

11. Are all male humans men?

12. "A barber cuts only hair of all men who do not cut their own hair. Does the barber cut his own hair?" Does such a scenario involve a sign in any way?

13. Is Rush Limbaugh usually politically conservative?

14. Is Barack Obama usually politically conservative?

15. In a question in which no sign is mentioned at all, and even if there were a sign, the sign could not have an impact on the answer to the question, is it possible that what is written on the unreferenced, unimportant sign will impact the answer to the question?

16. If a barber cuts only the hair of all men who do not cut their own hair, must he be bald?

17. Is is possible for a child to cut the hair of all men who do not cut their own hair?

18. Is the killing of innocent life wrong without consent from that life wrong?

19. Do you support burning flags?

20. Is it justified for the political rights of a man to be determined by the opinions of the majority of all adults within an arbitrarily drawn boundary?
Debate Round No. 2
GreatDebateMate

Pro

11. Are all male humans men?
No

12. "A barber cuts only hair of all men who do not cut their own hair. Does the barber cut his own hair?" Does such a scenario involve a sign in any way? It did when Bertrand Russell invented the paradox.

13. Is Rush Limbaugh usually politically conservative?
Yes

14. Is Barack Obama usually politically conservative?
No

15. In a question in which no sign is mentioned at all, and even if there were a sign, the sign could not have an impact on the answer to the question, is it possible that what is written on the unreferenced, unimportant sign will impact the answer to the question? No. You say there is no sign, so what is written on a non-existent sign can't impact anything.

16. If a barber cuts only the hair of all men who do not cut their own hair, must he be bald?
Yes

17. Is is possible for a child to cut the hair of all men who do not cut their own hair?
Depends on how "men" is being used.

18. Is the killing of innocent life wrong without consent from that life wrong?
Yes

19. Do you support burning flags?
Yes

20. Is it justified for the political rights of a man to be determined by the opinions of the majority of all adults within an arbitrarily drawn boundary? No
mongeese

Con

The answer to Question 12, "It did when Bertrand Russell invented the paradox," is not Yes, No, or any explanation as to why Yes or No would be insufficient. This violates Rule 2 [1]. I will give my opponent another chance to answer the question appropriately.

21. If one scenario is written in one way, does that mean that a rewriting of the scenario should be assumed to match the previous scenario in all ways unless proven otherwise?

22. Do things that do not exist have physical properties?

23. If a child (a male human, but not a man) barber cuts only the hair of all men hwo do not cut their own hair, must he be bald?

24. Are fetuses innocent?

25. Are blastocysts innocent?

26. Is pure democracy (rule directly by the people, with no power above the will of the majority) justified?

27. Have I ever said that, in any scenario that I have written, there is no sign?

28. Is the answer to Question 24 factually correct?

29. Is the answer to Question 25 factually correct?

30. Is the answer to Question 27 factually correct?

1. http://www.debate.org...
Debate Round No. 3
GreatDebateMate

Pro

**"The answer to Question 12, "It did when Bertrand Russell invented the paradox," is not Yes, No, or any explanation as to why Yes or No would be insufficient. This violates Rule 2 [1]. I will give my opponent another chance to answer the question appropriately."** The yes was implied, so I'll answer again: Yes, the paradox includes a sign.

21. If one scenario is written in one way, does that mean that a rewriting of the scenario should be assumed to match the previous scenario in all ways unless proven otherwise? Depends. Allusion is used as a short hand to convey an idea. You can accuse me of reading to much into the question, but the point of the debate is for me to avoid contradiction, not presumption.

22. Do things that do not exist have physical properties?
Depends on how "have" is being used. If "have in actuality" is the case, then no, they do not. If "have in imagination" is the case, then yes, they do--A unicorn doesn't exist, but we may speak of it as "having" smooth skin, a hard horn, etc.

23. If a child (a male human, but not a man) barber cuts only the hair of all men hwo do not cut their own hair, must he be bald? No, he can cut hair since he would fall outside the set of men.

24. Are fetuses innocent?
Incoherent questions, since the property of "innocent" can not be applied to the subject of the question. Can a fetus be guilty of anything? A more striking example of this fallacy would be, "What color is saturday?" Now if you think fetuses are people that would be another debate...

25. Are blastocysts innocent?
Same answer as above.

26. Is pure democracy (rule directly by the people, with no power above the will of the majority) justified?
No

27. Have I ever said that, in any scenario that I have written, there is no sign?
"In a question in which no sign is mentioned at all," That's what I interpreted that to mean.

28. Is the answer to Question 24 factually correct?
Yes

29. Is the answer to Question 25 factually correct?
Yes

30. Is the answer to Question 27 factually correct?
I don't know.
mongeese

Con

I would like to thank my opponent for answering all of my questions. Now, I would like to point out the contradictions.

Contradiction Set 1: The Barber Paradox

"1. A barber cuts only hair of all men who do not cut their own hair. Does the barber cut his own hair?
No, he must be bald or the sign doesn't make sense."

"15. In a question in which no sign is mentioned at all, and even if there were a sign, the sign could not have an impact on the answer to the question, is it possible that what is written on the unreferenced, unimportant sign will impact the answer to the question? No. You say there is no sign, so what is written on a non-existent sign can't impact anything."

"23. If a child (a male human, but not a man) barber cuts only the hair of all men hwo do not cut their own hair, must he be bald? No, he can cut hair since he would fall outside the set of men."

Contradiction A: My opponent claimed that if the sign doesn't make sense, then the barber does not cut his own hair (1). However, he later claimed that what is written on the sign cannot impact anything, which includes his answer (15). My opponent allowed the sign to impact his answer, despite the fact that he claimed that it cannot impact his answer. Contradiction.

Contradiction B: My opponent claimed that the sign cannot affect whether or not the barber cuts his own hair (15), which means that in order for the barber not to cut his own hair, he must be bald (1). However, he later admits that if the barber is a child, then the barber does not have to be bald (23). The barber must be bald, and yet he does not have to be bald. Contradiction.

Contradiction Set 2: Politics

"9. Is Rush Limbaugh usually Right?
no"

"13. Is Rush Limbaugh usually politically conservative?
Yes"

Contradition A: My opponent claims that Rush Limbaugh is not usually Right. However, when capitalized, "Right" means "politically conservative." My opponent claims that Rush Limbaugh is not usually politically conservative (9), and yet he is usually politically conservative (13). Contradiction.

Contradiction Set 3: Innocence

"24. Are fetuses innocent?
Incoherent questions, since the property of 'innocent' can not be applied to the subject of the question. Can a fetus be guilty of anything? A more striking example of this fallacy would be, 'What color is saturday?' Now if you think fetuses are people that would be another debate..."

"28. Is the answer to Question 24 factually correct?
Yes"

Contradiction A: My opponent claims that, in his answer to Question 24, the question of whether or not fetuses are innocent is "incoherent." However, it cannot be incoherent; the basic laws of logic state that any statement like Question 24 is either A or not A. A fetus is either innocent or not innocent. In this case, given my opponent's questioning of what a fetus can possibly be guilty of, it can be assumed that the proper answer would be "yes." However, he then claims that it is factually correct that Question 24 is incoherent (28), despite the fact that I have shown otherwise. Contradiction.

Good luck.
Debate Round No. 4
GreatDebateMate

Pro

Barber paradox:

In question 1 I assumed the paradox referred to Bertrand Russell's argument, which refers to a sign outside the window. In Question 15 you say there is no sign, so by definition it couldn't impact anything. Using the term 'barber' by itself implies a man who cuts hair, thus an adult. When the caveat of child is added, it changes what set the barber belongs to. So the questions are equivocating between uses of the word barber, thus not contradicting myself.

Rush Limbaugh:

I saw this coming and you fell for my trap.

First, you are wrong that capitalizing "right" would make it refer to a political philosophy and not just its normal definition. If you look up the word in the dictionary, right is never capitalized, even when referring to a political point of view. Second, it couldn't refer to any point of view without some modifying phrase or word in front of it (e.g. politically right, to the right of the political, etc.) Even in the Associated Press Style Book it says under political parties and philosophies: "LOWERCASE [my emphasis] the name of a philosophy in noun and adjective forms unless it is the derivative of a proper name: communism, communist; fascism, fascist. But: Marxism, Marxist; Nazism, Nazi."

So, not only did I not contradict myself, but you committed a glaring grammatical error, thus those points should go to me.

Innocence:

Okay, let's put aside the question of if the statement is coherent or not (which it isn't). The issue is whether I contradicted myself, NOT if I was wrong about something. Even if I grant you that your question is right, it still doesn't mean I contradicted myself. Suppose you asked, "Is Madrid the capital of Italy?" and I said, "Yes." Then you ask, "Is the answer to that question factually correct?" and I say, "Yes." I may be contradicting the facts, but I'm not contradicting myself, which is the point of the debate. The important lesson here is that you can still be completely consistent in your answers and still be wrong about something.
mongeese

Con

Contradiction Set 1: The Barber Paradox

Contradiction A: My opponent admits that he made an assumption, and explains why he made it. However, he does not defend the contradiciton. Just because the contradiction only came about because of false assumptions, doesn't mean it's not a contradiction. He admits again that the sign could not impact anything, despite the original reference to this sign. It is a contradiction.

Contradiction B: "Barber" may imply a man, but by definition [1], there is a possibility that the barber is a child. The youngest barber in the world, for example, is a teenager, not a man [2]. My opponent should have said that the barber must be either bald or a child. Claiming that he was tricked by implications does not justify a contradiction.
My opponent's ultimate defense is that I've equivocated "barber," but the agreed-upon dictionary [3] only has a single definition that does not distinguish between men and children, making equivocation impossible.

Contradiction Set 2: Politics

Contradition A: My opponent first claims that "Right" cannot be capitalized. This is false. The agreed-upon dictionary [3] allows the adjective "Right" to be capitalized only when referring to the political Right. My opponent also claims that I need a modifying phrase or word in order to distinguish that "Right" refers to politics, but does not properly source this. Capitalizing "Right" is enough to distinguish that it refers to politics.

Contradiction Set 3: Innocence

Contradiction A: I will drop this contradiction in favor of my other three contradictions, which I believe are much stronger in their negation of the resolution.

In concusion, my opponent has contradicted himself on three accounts:
* He claimed that a sign cannot impact anything (15), and yet stated that the sign impacted his answer (1).
* He claimed that a barber must be bald (1), although he later stated that if the barber is a child, then he need not be bald (23).
*He claimed that Rush Limbaugh is not usually Right (politically conservative [4]) (9), but usually politically conservative (13).
The resolution is negated. Vote CON.

GreatDebateMate, thanks for this debate, and good luck with your future debates.

1. "one whose business is cutting and dressing hair, shaving and trimming beards, and performing related services" - http://www.merriam-webster.com...
2. http://query.nytimes.com...
3. "11. For any questions involved in a contradiction, PRO may define any words in the question or the answer using the online Merriam-Webster dictionary at his own discretion, unless the words were already defined by CON when the question was asked."
http://www.debate.org...
4. "13 often capitalized : of, adhering to, or constituted by the Right especially in politics" - http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by mongeese 6 years ago
mongeese
"Does the barber cut his own hair."
should be
"Does the barber cut his own hair?"
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by mongoose 6 years ago
mongoose
GreatDebateMatemongeeseTied
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Total points awarded:05