The Instigator
pcmbrown
Pro (for)
Losing
18 Points
The Contender
mongeese
Con (against)
Winning
51 Points

I will not contradict myself

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 12 votes the winner is...
mongeese
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/14/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,010 times Debate No: 8919
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (37)
Votes (12)

 

pcmbrown

Pro

Contradiction: http://en.wikipedia.org...

Rules:
1. In Rounds 1-3, CON will ask PRO ten Yes/No questions.
2. In Rounds 2-4, PRO will answer all of CON's questions with Yes, No, or an explanation as to why neither answer would be completely correct.
3. In Rounds 2-4, CON can point out any contradictions that he or she believes to be present in PRO's answers.
4. When CON points out a contradiction, PRO may use all of the following rounds to defend the accused contradiction until either CON drops the accusation or PRO admits defeat, or when the debate is over.
5. If CON ever fails to ask PRO exactly ten Yes/No questions when necessary, CON automatically loses.
6. If PRO ever fails to answer every question asked in the previous round by the rules, PRO automatically loses.
7. If PRO is never found to have contradicted himself in this debate, PRO wins.
8. If PRO is ever found to have contradicted himself in this debate, PRO loses.
9. Because sources are largely irrelevant, and can really only be used by CON most of the time, the two points associated with sources will be given to the victor of the debate.
10. A question may not result in an inherently self-contradictory answer. If this is the case, Pro wins.
mongeese

Con

1. Can the government be trusted with large sums of money?
2. Should the government maintain all policies that have a net negative effect on the economy?
3. Should the government maintain all policies that have a net negative effect on society?
4. Do you agree with all of your opinions on the BIG issues?
5. Should government have a say in religious institutions?
6. Have you ever watched the TV show "Becker"?
7. Can a fascist nation be a good (positive) nation?
8. Have you ever plagiarized?
9. Are all of your answers for questions 1-4 correct (true)?
10. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 correct (true)?
Debate Round No. 1
pcmbrown

Pro

1. That is fully dependent on the government at hand, and the sum of money involved.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Yes, tentatively, many of those Yes or No answers border on No Opinion, others are not well-informed, and others require explanation, as the answer is neither truly yes, nor no. My beliefs on many of these are subject to change, given more information. If you are seeking a specific contradiction, please ask about the specific issue.
5. If an institution has no harmful effect on society, then no. The phrase "have a say" is unclear here. However, the government ought to be able to decide what to recognize as a religious institution.
6. I saw a brief snippet of one show.
7. In theory, yes, but the practicality of that is doubtful.
8. Depends on your definition of "plagiarized". However, I certainly wrote elementary/early middle school papers that bore a dubious resemblance to Wikipedia.
9. They are only "true" in that they are my opinion.
10. They are only "true" in that they are my opinion.
mongeese

Con

11. Can the U.S. Government be trusted with keeping billions of dollars?
12. Should the government maintain any policies that have a net negative effect on the economy?
13. Should the government maintain any policies that have a net negative effect on society?
14. Did you enjoy the one episode of "Becker" that you watched?
15. When you enjoy a TV show, do you start watching it occasionally?
16. Should the government participate in the economy?
17. Should the government regulate the economy?
18. Does the U.S. Government try to instill its beliefs into school children and get them to pledge allegiance to the U.S.?
19. Is the statement, "I saw a brief snippet of one show," a fact?
20. Are all of your answers for questions 11-19 correct (true)?
Debate Round No. 2
pcmbrown

Pro

11. If we are referring to Obama's administration, then No. They will spend, rather than keep, the money.
12. Yes.
13. Depends on the definition of society. If it is inclusive of all aspects of life, and holds individual rights in esteem, then No. Otherwise, Yes.
14. No, no I did not.
15. Yes, typically, though "occasionally" is rather infrequent. I don't watch much TV.
16. Yes, in the form of taxes, certainly.
17. Yes.
18. No.
19. Yes...
20. In the sense that they are my personal views, yes.
mongeese

Con

My opponent has made numerous contradictions.

Contradiction 1: Social Security

"11. Can the U.S. Government be trusted with keeping billions of dollars?"
"11. If we are referring to Obama's administration, then No. They will spend, rather than keep, the money."

pcmbrown is PRO-Social Security.
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

The Social Security deficit is currently in the trillions.
http://www.socialsecurity.org...

If social security is worth trillions, and pcmbrown doesn't think that the current administration can be trusted with billions, then pcmbrown shouldn't be PRO-Social Security.
If pcmbrown is PRO-Social Security, and social security is worth trillions, then pcmbrown should think that the current admisistration can be trusted with billions.
Contradiction.

Contradiction 2: Favorite TV Shows

"14. Did you enjoy the one episode of 'Becker' that you watched?"
"14. No, no I did not."

pcmbrown's favorite TV shows include "anything on usa."
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

"Becker" is on USA.
http://www.usanetwork.com...

If pcmbrown enjoys any TV show on USA, and "Becker" is on USA, then pcmbrown should enjoy "Becker."
If pcmbrown does not enjoy "Becker," and "Becker" is on USA, then pcmbrown should not have his favorites include anything on USA.
Contradiction.

Contradiction 3: Facts/Opinions

"10. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 correct (true)?"
"10. They are only 'true' in that they are my opinion."

"6. Have you ever watched the TV show 'Becker'?"
"6. I saw a brief snippet of one show."

"19. Is the statement, 'I saw a brief snippet of one show,' a fact?"
"19. Yes..."

If the answers for questions 5-8 are pcmbrown's opinion, and "I saw a brief snippet of one show" was the answer to question 6, then "I saw a brief snippet of one show" is an opinion.
If "I saw a brief snippet of one show" is a fact, and "I saw a brief snippet of one show" was the answer to question 6, then not all answers for questions 5-8 are opinions.
Contradiction.

Now, to continue my barrage of questions.

21. Are students encouraged to say the pledge of allegiance at American schools every day?
22. Does the government control what textbooks are used by kids in American schools?
23. Are the textbooks in American schools written in a PRO-America view?
24. Should the government do bad?
25. Should the government actively participate in the economy through things that are not reserved to the government?
26. Should the government do anything to keep unemployment down?
27. Is Joe Biden always right?
28. Is Barack Obama always right?
29. Is mongoose always Right?
30. Are all of your answers for questions 21-29 correct (true)?
Debate Round No. 3
pcmbrown

Pro

C1
I noted that my views were tentative, or required further explanation. I believe, in principle, in Social Security. However, its application in the United States has been a farce. I do not support the Social Security program currently in place. Further, I do not trust them to KEEP it. That does not mean that I do not trust their wisdom in spending the money.

C2
Those TV shows are no longer an accurate list, e.g. I have lost interest in several usa shows, such as psych.

C3
The statement was factual in my view. Its factuality is arguable given the subjective definition of 'snippet'.

21. Not everywhere, in some situations, yes.
22. Perhaps? I'm not quite clear on it, but yes, I believe that regulation exists.
23. Not all of them, but presumably the majority.
24. Define 'bad'. Probably not.
25. If necessary to prevent disaster, or to institute social programs.
26. Yes, though measures should be fairly minimal.
27. No.
28. YES! Kidding, No.
29. No.
30. I'm not certain, my factual knowledge on 22 is iffy.
mongeese

Con

"Those TV shows are no longer an accurate list..."
However, that was what you said about yourself. It is your responsibility to keep up an accurate list. Obviously, your profile said that "Becker" was one of your favorite TV shows, but you disagree now. Thus, contradiction.

"The statement was factual in my view. Its factuality is arguable given the subjective definition of 'snippet'."
However, you argued on both sides.

First, you established that the statement was an opinion.
Then, you established that the statement was a fact.
This is contradictory.

Contradiction 4: Obama

"28. Is Barack Obama always right?"
"28. YES! Kidding, No."
The answer cannot be both yes and no. This is obviously a contradiction.

In conclusion, my opponent has contradicted himself three times. Vote CON!
Debate Round No. 4
pcmbrown

Pro

"However, that was what you said about yourself. It is your responsibility to keep up an accurate list. Obviously, your profile said that "Becker" was one of your favorite TV shows, but you disagree now. Thus, contradiction."
"3. In Rounds 2-4, CON can point out any contradictions that he or she believes to be present in PRO's answers."
I am free to contradict my "About Me", and other similar sections of my profile, as they are not questions which have been asked.

"First, you established that the statement was an opinion.
Then, you established that the statement was a fact.
This is contradictory."
fact-a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred
opinion-a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty
Obviously, a piece of information is not necessarily certain, ergo, no contradiction exists.

Obama
This is not a contradition, as "Kidding" implies...

Vote Pro, and thanks for reading.
mongeese

Con

Obviously, a piece of information is not necessarily certain, ergo, no contradiction exists."
Then why did you call it an opinion? And why did you call it a fact?
The point is, you called it two different things. You could have said that it could be a fact and could be an opinion. However, you said that it is a fact and an opinion. You confirmed it to be opinion, and then confirmed it to be fact. We are not certain about which one it is, but it can't be both. Therefore, there is still contradiction. It can't be a fact and an opinion.

"This is not a contradiction, as 'Kidding' implies..."
"Kidding" only implies that you were joking around. However, the joke was that you gave one answer, then switched it to a contradictory answer. That's still a contradiction, whether you implied differently or not.

In conclusion, my opponent has contradicted himself twice, once with calling one statement both a fact and an opinion, and again with answering "yes" and "no" to the same question. Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 5
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
Actually, it was rooted on whether or not his answer was both fact and opinion. "About Me" wasn't introduced until later.
Posted by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
In this case, I don't find them contradictory, either, given the definition of "fact" that PCM introduces, as well as the origin of the argument, which I do believe is rooted to the issue of the "About Me" section.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
What about the fact/opinion contradiction?
Posted by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
*tied... whoops :)
Posted by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
URGH. I wrote out a beautiful RFD, and then it didn't post. Bastard website...

Anyway.

Fail #1: agree with other posters. There are rules to this stupid form of debate, & they were accepted by both parties upon entering the debate. Hence, it doesn't matter how tricky you were trying to be. You broke the rules by introducing PCM's "About Me" into the debate.

Fail #2: the other contradiction, at least in the English language, is not a contradiction. The use of the word "kidding" in the syntax, as well as the highly recognizable and gratuitous use of caps, indicates that a humorous or satirical mood was being created by Pro. Hence, the only way you could make this into a logical contradiction would be to take what was said entirely out of context. Which you did.

I vote Pro. I died conduct & sources.
Posted by iamadragon 7 years ago
iamadragon
It still isn't an RFD if you give garbage reasons.

There are four levels:

No RFD–the most common.
The RFD without the reason, which is almost useless. I do it often.
The RFD for dumb reasons, or that are justified with like two words, like some of mongeese's and wjmelements's (I'm only saying you guys because you guys tend to post a lot of RFDs anyway, and you're here.)
The full RFD, like Kleptin's.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
But because you didn't, your plan failed.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
If I tried to get him to endorse his profile, he would have noticed my plan.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Mongeese: You would have had this for sure had you made him endorse his profile.

Anyways:
-FACT/OPINION stood (because the two are incompatible)
-Yes/No stood (because though he was kidding, his answer was contradictory)
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
You're right. How odd.

I'm just surprised at how many conduct votes have been given to each person. Every single vote that hasn't had an RFD has been a 7-pointer so far.
12 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Xer 7 years ago
Xer
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Vote Placed by Me100 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by wjmelements 7 years ago
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