The Instigator
ToastOfDestiny
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
mongeese
Con (against)
Losing
27 Points

I will not contradict myself

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/16/2009 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,303 times Debate No: 8981
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (9)

 

ToastOfDestiny

Pro

Contradiction: http://en.wikipedia.org.........

Rules:
1. In Rounds 1-3, CON will ask PRO ten Yes/No questions.
2. In Rounds 2-4, PRO will answer all of CON's questions with yes, no, or an explanation as to why neither is correct or accurate.
3. In Rounds 2-4, CON can point out any contradictions that he or she believes to be present in PRO's answers.
4. When CON points out a contradiction, PRO may use all of the following rounds to defend the accused contradiction until either CON drops the accusation or PRO admits defeat, or when the debate is over.
5. If CON ever fails to ask PRO exactly ten Yes/No questions when necessary, CON automatically loses.
6. If PRO ever fails to answer every question asked in the previous round by the rules, PRO automatically loses.
7. If PRO is never found to have contradicted himself in this debate, PRO wins.
8. If PRO is ever found to have contradicted himself in this debate, PRO loses.
9. Because sources are largely irrelevant, and can really only be used by CON most of the time, the two points associated with sources will be given to the victor of the debate.
10. CON's questions should not require PRO to have significant prior knowledge (for example, asking PRO whether the answer to a complex equation is correct, or a detailed question pertaining to the U.S. Civil War). Questions can still be complex, but not mentally demanding.
mongeese

Con

1. Are all of your opinions on the BIG issues true?
2. Is everything else in your profile true?
3. Is Barack Obama always Right?
4. Is Joe Biden always Right?
5. Is John McCain always Right?
6. Is Rush Limbaugh always Right?
7. Do you believe that the United States Federal Government should go against the U.S. Constitution?
8. Are all opinions you expressed in your debates and in the forums yours?
9. Are all of your answers for questions 1-4 true?
10. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 true?
Debate Round No. 1
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

1. Are all of your opinions on the BIG issues true?
Yes, in that they are my opinions.

Note, the BIG issues can be misleading. For example, I am for civil unions AND gay marriage. While civil unions do 'get in the way' of gay marriage, they at least provide LGBT couples with benefits. So, until gay marriage is approved, I am pro civil unions. Also, I am against gun rights. This doesn't mean that I am against ALL gun rights, just against total free reign. I think that there should be restrictions on gun ownership.

2. Is everything else in your profile true?
No.

3-6. Is Barack Obama always Right? (Joe Biden, John McCain, Rush Limbaugh)
No.

7. Do you believe that the United States Federal Government should go against the U.S. Constitution?
Yes, but only in exceedingly rare cases.

8. Are all opinions you expressed in your debates and in the forums yours?
No.

9. Are all of your answers for questions 1-4 true?
Yes.

10. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 true?
Yes.

It seems that I posted a bad link in R1. Here is the corrected form: http://en.wikipedia.org...
mongeese

Con

My opponent has contradicted himself.

"3-6. Is [Rush Limbaugh] always Right?
No."

"10. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 true?
Yes."

However, Rush Limbaugh is always Right.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Right - often capitalized - of, adhering to, or constituted by the Right especially in politics

http://www.merriam-webster.com...[2]

The Right is a conservative position.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Rush Limbaugh is always a conservative, and therefore, Rush Limbaugh is always Right.

My opponent's answer to #2 is also contradictory, as his reality contradicts his profile.

11. If there is a barber who only shaves all men that don't shave themselves, does he shave himself?

12. Have you ever plagiarized?

13. Are the answers blowing in the wind?

14. In conflict, should life be valued over liberty?

15. Are you sneaky?

16. Are you going to fail to answer this question in a way that allows for the possibility of answering this question?

17. Have you ever deceived?

18. Do you live within 1,000 miles of Texas?

9. Are all of your answers for questions 11-14 true?

10. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 true?
Debate Round No. 2
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

<>
Coincidentally, I thought of this when answering the question. Even if we consider the political definition of 'right', Rush Limbaugh is not always right. So long as he has agreed with leftists at least once in his life, he is not always right.

Rush Limbaugh encouraged Colin Powell to become a Democrat [1]. Colin Powell is a rather prolific figure, and he would be a good acquisition for the U.S. left. Although he is doing so because he disagrees with Colin, Limbaugh is encouraging him to strengthen the U.S. left. If he were always politically right, he would not do this.

Even then, my opponent uses the last definition of right. If we look to the other definitions of right (suitable, appropriate, proper, correct), we see that Rush Limbaugh is not always right.

<>
In my profile, I posted a tournament bracket for the L-M Classic. It will not be used, so it is not the true L-M Classic bracket. This doesn't contradict my reality. It does make my profile false.

11. If there is a barber who only shaves all men that don't shave themselves, does he shave himself?
This question is impossible to answer with a 'yes' or 'no', as either answer is logically impossible. If the barber shaves himself, then he cannot shave himself. If he cannot shave himself, then he must shave himself, and the cycle continues. Neither answer is appropriate.

12. Have you ever plagiarized?
No.

13. Are the answers blowing in the wind?
I don't understand this question. If you elaborate, I'd be glad to answer next round. Until then, neither 'yes' nor 'no' is appropriate.

14. In conflict, should life be valued over liberty?
Yes, so long as a good quality of life is maintained. That doesn't mean that life should be completely regulated, or that liberty shouldn't be somewhat restricted.

15. Are you sneaky?
Yes, I can be.

16. Are you going to fail to answer this question in a way that allows for the possibility of answering this question?
No. I succeeded at answering this question in a way that allows for the possibility of answering it.

17. Have you ever deceived?
Yes.

18. Do you live within 1,000 miles of Texas?
Yes.

19. Are all of your answers for questions 11-14 true?
No, as #14 is subjective.

20. Are all of your answers for questions 5-8 true?
Yes.


[1]http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...
mongeese

Con

"Rush Limbaugh encouraged Colin Powell to become a Democrat. Colin Powell is a rather prolific figure, and he would be a good acquisition for the U.S. left. Although he is doing so because he disagrees with Colin, Limbaugh is encouraging him to strengthen the U.S. left. If he were always politically right, he would not do this."
You say yourself that it was out of disagreement.
You misunderstand what Rush did. He knew that Colin Powell claimed to be a Republican, but had the policies of a Democrat, so Limbaugh said that Powell should declare himself a Democrat so that nobody would confuse him for a Republican. Powell was already strengthening the U.S. Left. Limbaugh just wanted everybody on the Right to realize this, so that they would stop supporting Powell. His actions were Right.

"Even then, my opponent uses the last definition of right. If we look to the other definitions of right (suitable, appropriate, proper, correct), we see that Rush Limbaugh is not always right."
Ah, but my definition is the only one that would be capitalized without being at the beginning of a sentence.

21. Is your answer for question 12 true?

22. Are you capable of typing any answer you want, provided that it can be typed using your keyboard and you suffer no disabilities?

23. Are you going to fail to answer this question in a way that allows for the possibility of the answer being positive, negative, or unknown?

24. Are all male humans men?

25. Is there a possibility that your tournament bracket will be used?

26. Is it possible that any number of people of any combination will drop out of the L-M Classic (excluding L-M himself) and any number of people will join?

27. Are logically impossible things possible?

28. Besides your photos, is your profile true?

29. Are all of your answers for questions 21-24 true?

30. Are all of your answers for questions 25-28 true?
Debate Round No. 3
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

<>
Only in his vote for Obama. By encouraging Powell to actually join the left, Rush is strengthening it. There is a
difference between Colin Powell supporting the left, and Colin Powell explicitly joining the left.

<>
I assumed that capitalizing right was a typo. Besides, even if my example above is not accepted, Rush Limbaugh is not always politically right.

21. Is your answer for question 12 true?
Yes.

22. Are you capable of typing any answer you want, provided that it can be typed using your keyboard and you suffer no disabilities?
Yes, provided I don't acquire a disability while typing, and that the answer exists.

23. Are you going to fail to answer this question in a way that allows for the possibility of the answer being positive, negative, or unknown?
Yes.

24. Are all male humans men?
No.

25. Is there a possibility that your tournament bracket will be used?
No. L-M stated himself that another bracket would be made. For the purpose of this answer, I trust L-M's word.

26. Is it possible that any number of people of any combination will drop out of the L-M Classic (excluding L-M himself) and any number of people will join?
No.

27. Are logically impossible things possible?
No (in my opinion). I have tried to research this to no avail. I am answering 'no' because I believe there is a logical explanation for everything.

28. Besides your photos, is your profile true?
No.

29. Are all of your answers for questions 21-24 true?
Yes.

30. Are all of your answers for questions 25-28 true?
I don't know. No matter how much I think about #27, my answer is a guess at best right now. Without this knowledge, neither 'yes' nor 'no' is appropriate.
mongeese

Con

"Only in his vote for Obama. By encouraging Powell to actually join the left, Rush is strengthening it. There is a difference between Colin Powell supporting the left, and Colin Powell explicitly joining the left."
Colin Powell had views of the Left. He was just a Left-supporting parasite for the Right, and Rush challenged him to stop claiming to be a conservative. Rush was Right when he rid the Right of someone who did no good for the Right. By having Powell join the Left, the people of the Right would no longer support Powell, so there would no longer be any confusion in supporting regarding that matter.

"Besides, even if my example above is not accepted, Rush Limbaugh is not always politically right."
Wrong. Rush Limbaugh is the Right.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Rush Limbaugh defines the conservative movement.

Contradiction #3: The Barber

"11. If there is a barber who only shaves all men that don't shave themselves, does he shave himself?
This question is impossible to answer with a 'yes' or 'no', as either answer is logically impossible. If the barber shaves himself, then he cannot shave himself. If he cannot shave himself, then he must shave himself, and the cycle continues. Neither answer is appropriate."

"24. Are all male humans men?
No."

Toast never realized that the barber could be a child prodigy. The point is, any male human could be a barber, and because not all of them are men, this allows for the possibility that the barber is not a man. If the barber is not a man, then he could shave all men who don't shave themselves, and not shave himself, as he is not a man, but a boy.

If all male humans are men, then the barber might not be a man, so if he cannot shave himself, he can still not shave himself.
"If he cannot shave himself, then he must shave himself..."

Contradiction #4: Ability

"11. If there is a barber who only shaves all men that don't shave themselves, does he shave himself?
This question is impossible to answer with a 'yes' or 'no'..."

"22. Are you capable of typing any answer you want, provided that it can be typed using your keyboard and you suffer no disabilities?
Yes, provided I don't acquire a disability while typing, and that the answer exists."

It is already established that the answer is "no," because the barber must be a boy, not a man. Toast said that he can answer any question as long as the answer exists. He has proven capable of typing "yes" and "no" multiple times. Therefore, he must be able to answer #11 as "no." However, he said that this is impossible. This is contradictory.

There you have it. Three contradictions. Good luck with your responses, Toast.
Debate Round No. 4
ToastOfDestiny

Pro

I can only assume that mongeese has dropped his previous claim about my profile, as he did not bring it up in R3 or R4.

<>
But he was also strengthening the left. His decision benefited both the right and the left, so he was also left in making his decision.

<>
That doesn't mean he is categorically right. The possibility of him never agreeing at all with the left is astronomically low. While Limbaugh may be very conservative most of the time, he is not politically right all the time. He may claim to be 100% conservative, but he is wrong in this.

Here's another link: http://www.thedailygreen.com.... The first part of the article pertains to Rush Limbaugh. It says "[Rush Limbaugh] pooh-poohs global warming and even boasts about wasting energy. Nothing conservative about that. Rush is saying, in effect, "if it feels good, do it" – an attitude straight from the New Left.

Contradictions three and four can be addressed together by showing that the answer is still 'neither'. I shall show that it is impossible to answer either 'yes' or 'no' to question 11.

Mongeese says that the barber could be a child prodigy. That doesn't mean he cannot shave himself.

Shave (http://www.merriam-webster.com...)
1) To sever the hair from (the head or another part of the body) close to the roots; to cut off (hair or beard) close to the skin.

Shaving of hair on the head is a common practice in the military, and often takes place among civilian populations. President Barack Obama even ordered that Steven Colbert's hair be shaved [2]! Before mongeese dismisses this by pointing out the use of the word 'haircut', note that shaving someone's head is a method of cutting their hair. They are not mutually exclusive.

Now,a barber who is a child prodigy could easily shave his head, arms, or legs. However, without knowledge of his actions, I cannot say whether or not he shaves himself. The answer to question 11 is still neither, although, in this light, my previous answer was incomplete.

A complete, corrected answer should read:

"11. If there is a barber who only shaves all men that don't shave themselves, does he shave himself?
This question is impossible to answer with a 'yes' or 'no', as either answer is logically impossible. If the barber shaves himself, then he cannot shave himself. If he cannot shave himself, then he must shave himself, and the cycle continues. If he is a child, it is still impossible to say. Without more knowledge, it is unknown whether this male child shaves his head, arms, or legs. Neither answer is appropriate."

This answer doesn't contradict my previous answer, it just makes it more correct. It is still logically impossible to discern the answer.

<>
Congrats, mongeese, on four rounds well played. Your attacks last round totally caught me by surprise. Keep it up in R5! Voters, still vote Pro!


[2] http://www.colbertnation.com...
mongeese

Con

"Congrats, mongeese, on four rounds well played. Your attacks last round totally caught me by surprise. Keep it up in R5!"
Will do!

"But he was also strengthening the left. His decision benefited both the right and the left, so he was also left in making his decision."
So, he was both Left and Right? Then he was still Right.

"That doesn't mean he is categorically right. The possibility of him never agreeing at all with the left is astronomically low. While Limbaugh may be very conservative most of the time, he is not politically right all the time. He may claim to be 100% conservative, but he is wrong in this."
He agrees with the Left at the points where the Left and the Right agree. He sides with the Right on disputes.

"The first part of the article pertains to Rush Limbaugh. It says '[Rush Limbaugh] pooh-poohs global warming and even boasts about wasting energy. Nothing conservative about that. Rush is saying, in effect, 'if it feels good, do it' – an attitude straight from the New Left.'"
The attitude is not what decides the political ideology. It is the opinion. The Right doesn't have a concrete opinion on global warming.
http://www.thedailygreen.com...
So, he is on a non-green branch of the Right, but that still places him on the Right.

As to all of my opponent's regards to Contradictions 3 and 4, it seems as if he has missed the one part that was the reason why I asked Question 24. A child can still shave himself, sure. However, re-read Question 11.

"11. If there is a barber who only shaves all men that don't shave themselves, does he shave himself?"

Notice that the barber only shaves men, and my opponent agrees that children aren't men. If the barber is a child, he doesn't shave himself, because he only shaves men. He does not shave himself. All of my opponent's rebuttals have to do with the fact that children can still shave themselves, but we know that this barber cannot shave himself, because he is a child, and he only shaves men.

In conclusion, Contraditions 3 and 4 remain.

"Voters, still vote Pro!"
Now that you know otherwise, vote CON!
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
So, did you vote? If so, RFD.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Rush sometimes being left in cases in which left is also Right doesn't make Rush not Right.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
You said that he must shave himself, which only works if he is a man.
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
I assumed he was a man, but never stated that he must be.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
"If he cannot shave himself, then he must shave himself, and the cycle continues."
That was the contradictory statement.
You said that he must shave himself, as he must be a man who does not shave himself, but you then admit that he might not be a man. Saying that he must be a man and then agreeing that he might not be a man is contradictory.
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
That the barber may be a child. Given the nature of this debate, I cannot be sure that you weren't trying to trip me up. For example, had I answered 'yes' or 'no', you wouldn't have brought up the possibility of him being a child, as I would have contradicted myself there. While I assumed the barber was a man, and I was mistaken in doing so, my answer was correct.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
But logical reasoning tells you that the barber must be a child!
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
I didn't vote Pro because of that argument. I voted Pro because it is still impossible to answer the question you asked with a yes or no. My reasoning was incorrect, but my answer was correct.
Posted by mongeese 7 years ago
mongeese
But if they already know what you're doing, they say, "I don't know." I didn't know that, though.

I still think the contradiction about whether or not something is possible wasn't true, because it's possible that P=NP.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
What I've learned is that if you get Pro to admit that he doesn't have any secret mathematical proofs, you can get tons of contradictions.
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