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The Contender
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ISIS/Daesh are Islamic and are doing the right thing according to the teachings of Islam

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/16/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 795 times Debate No: 95447
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I am Con in this debate, you are Pro.

ISIS has been denounced by 99.9% or 100% of Islamic scholars and Muftis. The grand Mufti of Saudi-Arabia called ISIS "the #1 enemy of Islam". There are no recognized scholars that see ISIS as good and true Muslims.

Videos of scholars, muftis and learners denouncing ISIS and terror attacks.
Mufti Menk:
Hamza Yusuf:
Yasir Qadhi:
Muhammad al-Yaqoubi:
Shaykh Abdullah bin-Bayyah:
Shafayat Mohamed:
Bilal Phillips:
Abu Usamah At-Thahabi:
Imran Hossein:
Abdul Muhsin al-'Abbaad:
Haitham Al Haddad:
Abdur Raheem Green:
Abou Arfa:
Zakir Naik:
Salih as-Suhaymee:
Asim Hussain:
Salih al-Fawzan:
Habib Ali Al-Jifri:
Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Al-Muhaisini:
Nourman Ali Khan:
Muhammad Bin Ramzaan:
Sheikh Omar El Banna :
Sh. Khalid Yasin:


While the overwhelming evidence you have provided does indeed support the notion that many in Islam's "clergy" openly oppose the works of ISIS and Daesh, there is no question that what they do is what Islam commands them to. these opinions and "interpretations" as Muslim muftis and such like to dish out is but an interpretation of their Qu'ran, which is to be noted that when Islam is backed into a corner like this they say "it is but one interpretation, seek others!"

In this context, the most recent poll showing the proportion of surveyed Muslims propose the question "are you against ISIS/Daesh and what it does", to which 93% said yes. Now that is a great majority, but apply it like this: Do these sources you present, represent Islam? Of course not. We are told not to judge a faith by the atrocities of a few and are to address the good one by, again, a few. This is in no way a balanced view of a faith, especially the second largest in the world.

Now, Islam currently numbers (by adherents) as 1.6 billion. Now if seven percent of that number support Islam, that's near 230 million people. In no way is such a number to be ignored or be labelled as a "minority percentage" that "doesn't represent Islam". They are commanded to conquer and convert, and are told to accept no kuffar who will not accept the belief. In the medieval period they enforced a tax on non-believers to even live in the same city as them. Do your sources represent the 93% of 1.6 billion people? Definitely not. Does my 7% represent 1.6 billion people? Of course not.

All that is being suggested is that their Qu'ran is very explicit with what they are commanded to do. Some verse order them to kill, others do not. Some order them to kill their rape victims to save the honour of the family (see honour killings in Muslim countries). Some do not. All that is apparent is that there is a massive confusion between what is permissible and what isn't. The people who abstain from killing and conquest in the name of Islam represent some verses of their Qu'ran and are indeed Muslim, but so are the people who kill and conquer, such as ISIS and Daesh. Their Islam is but an interpretation of the same text, that has explicitly told them to do what they do, to establish a Caliphate, and usher in a Muslim world. 109 verses explicitly compel them to go forth and wage war or kill.

In essence, and conclusion, ISIS and Daesh are doing what Muslims 1000 years ago would have done, compared to Muslims who live in the today and care not for death and conquest. This is where context is needed, and the 21st Century has had ample time to develop a decent set of ethics.1000 years ago 93% of Muslims would likely have said yes. Now that the numbers have changed means nothing, they are doing what they are commanded to do, and hence they will carry out their duty. Yes they are representative of what Islam teaches, and yet at the same time they aren't. This is where the Law of Explosion applies, and as such, all conclusions and yet none are applicable in the presence of a paradoxical conclusion.

Verses explicitly demanding killing or violence in Islam's name (remember that the Qu'ran is the unalterable word of God and to change its words is a crime greater than any in Islam).


2: 191-193
5: 33
8: 12
8: 39
8: 65 (the call to war)
48: 17 (Those who do not fight are condemned to hell)
61: 9

These preaching are from the Qu'ran ALONE. I am not factoring in the Hadith or the Sira yet.
Debate Round No. 1


Thanks for accepting this debate. Let me start of with the Muslim population, which is far greater than 1.6 billion. In 1990 there were 1.1 billion Muslims and in 2010 there were 1.6 billion Muslims. Islam is the fastest growing religion and if the fastest growing religion apparently got stuck at the same number, the numbers don't add up. There will be 2.76 billion Muslims around 2050 according to Pew Research.

I will talk about every single verse you presented.

3:56: You need to read the verse before it and after it. This verse references God's wrath on the people who disbelieved in Jesus. The verse does encourage or endorse Muslims to randomly kill people.

2:191-193: Don't just stop at kill them wherever you find them.
I quote from 192 "And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
These 3 passages you mentioned all have to do with a specific battle, the polytheists drove the Muslims out of Makkah with no food or water so that they might starve. The Muslims were not even allowed to buy food or items from the shops at one point. So Allah has given them permission to fight back, this is not implying that all polytheists need to be killed. It's saying fight those who have fought you, nothing more.
Mufti Menk speaking about these 3 verses:

5:33: Video explanation from the Ibn Kathir tafseer. The same Qur'an orders Muslims to protect Churches and even allows Muslims to marry Christians and Jews.

8:12: This verse was revealed after the Battle of Badr, possibly even at the same time because it describes the battle of Badr in detail. You can go ahead and refer to the tafseers, this verse is just talking about a Battle. On top of that the Muslims were outnumbered and yet they won.
Muslim strength: 313 infantry and cavalry: 2 horses and 70 camels
Kufaar strength: 950 infantry and cavalry: 100 horses and 170 camels

8:39: Do you not notice that the verse starts with "And"? Surely there must something meaningful before it.
Let's take a look at 8:38 "Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place." So we know that this verse is again talking about self-defense.

8:65: It's simple here, just read a few verses before it and a few after it and you know that this is still talking about the battle of Badr. This chapter is called the spoils of war, this chapter mentions war over and over again.
8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

48:16-17: Read the chapter please, this is talking about Muhammad SAW and his followers of that time. This is a verse about history, but you translate it as if they are commands for me and other Muslims. Secondly, this is talking about someone who turns away from Islam and stops following the prophet.

61:9: This is not talking about killing non-Muslims so that Islam will become the dominant religion. It will become the biggest religion regardless of killing of whomever.
Tafseer of chapter "The Ranks":
Now let me show you why ISIS is an anti-Islamic group.

- "And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the "Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)"
[al-Anbiya" 21:107] ISIS has no mercy, showing a clear contradiction.
- [If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.' (Abu Dawud, Book of Sunnah).] ISIS will call anyone a kaafir who does not agree with their wicked ideology.
- Qur'an 4:29" "And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you." ISIS directly violates this command that is also continuously found in authentic Hadiths.
-Qur'an 17:23: "And your Lord has decreed that you not worship except Him, and to parents, good treatment. Whether one or both of them reach old age [while] with you, say not to them [so much as], "uff," and do not repel them but speak to them a noble word." ISIS militants on the other hand disrespect their parents and will even kill them if they do not agree with ISIS.
- Qur"an 6:151 specifically and explicitly prohibits the killing of Muslims and ISIS directly violates this.
- The Quran 5:69 mentions in that among the Jews and Christians there are also believers who will enter paradise. ISIS kills Christians as well, but they don't kill Jews obviously.
- Qur'an 5:82 even mentions "You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.".
- Qur'an 2:190 mentions that Allah does not love transgressors when it comes to fighting, meaning killing innocent people.
- "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran, 2:256)"
- "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it). (Quran, 18:29)"
-"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Qur'an, 60:8)"
So we must be kind towards innocent disbelievers. If ISIS was Islamic, they would focus on destroying Israel and the Israeli government.

ISIS has not only killed more Muslims than non-Muslims, but they have deformed Islam and have made us a fitnah to the non-Muslim. Ignoring 60:5.
"Our Lord! Do not make us a test for those who disbelieve. Forgive us our Lord, You are All-Powerful capable of defeating anyone and You are All-Wise" (Qur'an 60: 5)

If ISIS is anyone then they are the Kharijites or the Khawarijs, also known as the worst of the creation.

Hadith 1:
Nu"aym b. Hammad records in his Kitab al-Fitan (The Book of Tribulations):
"It is related on the authority of "Ali (may Allah ennoble his countenance): "When you see the black flags, remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet (It"s a common phrase meaning: "Stay put and don"t get involved in the fighting"). Thereafter there shall appear a feeble folk to whom no concern is given. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron. They are the representatives of the State (Ashab al-Dawla). They will fulfill neither covenant nor agreement. They will invite to the truth, though they are not from its people. Their names will be agnomens [i.e., Abu So-and-so], and their ascriptions will be to villages. Their hair will be long like that of women. [They shall remain so] till they differ among themselves, and then Allah will bring forth the truth from whomever He wills.""

Hadith 2:
"a group of young people who would be immature in thought and foolish." They would speak beautiful words but commit the most heinous of deeds. They would engage in so much prayer and fasting that the worship of the Muslims would appear insignificant in comparison. They would call people to the Quran but would have nothing to do with it in reality. The Quran would not go beyond their throats, meaning they wouldn't understand its essence at all, merely regurgitating it selectively. The Prophet then went on to describe these people as "the worst of the creation." (Sahih Bukhari)

In another Hadith the Kharijites are called the dogs of Hell. The scholars I presented also call them the Khawarij.
Hamza Yusuf talking about the Khawarij:

ISIS is just a new name, the names keep changing. First we had the Taliban, which was created by the CIA to fight the Russians and then we got Al-Qaeda, which was also a creation of the US. Why should ISIS suddenly be an exception?
Hillary Clinton admitting it:

Here we can find Elliot Shimon, aka Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi chilling at the club and with John McCain.

Remember, ISIS does not prove Muhammad SAW wrong, it proves him right.


Ah the usual "you need to contextualize it"routine? No, I think not. It is a call to harm those over a trifling matter and it is abhorrent and disgusting.

And if they cease? if? Seems like an inference of extension, like something prolonged was meant to have happened. But now they do not cease. In ISIS's eyes, e are depriving them of their existence by condemning them so, and so in accordance to Islamic scripture, particularly 2: 191-193, their violence is justified. Isn't this what Islamic apologists (as your profile picture suggests all to clearly) like to muffle with the terminology of "Jihad"? "It's not violence, it's resistance!" they cry, a "struggle of the soul/spirit" they say, as these Jihadist's bomb and murder and molest and violate innocents all over the world. But to them, the jihadists, they aren't innocent, they are oppressing their way of being, by questioning their dogma and their ways, hence this war they have waged on us, of which none save themselves are exempt.

"And even allows Muslims to marry Christians and Jews", wow! It EVEN lets them marry other people who believe in different sky-fairies, how tolerant and progressive! Surely, it does not say anywhere that such marriages are permissible, but what is shown is how muhammad won the Battle of Khaybar, and subsequently chose his Jewish wife Safiyya among the women and children, who were prisoners of war. Now, I dare not think it, but what has happened to women and children kept as prisoners of war under Islam?

Oh.. right. And ISIS is not different at all, keeping sex slaves and child brides just like their dear "prophet". Stellar example of morals and ethics he is.*

Battle of badr between Muslims and the Kufaar? Well, I wonder where the word kufaar comes from. Some sort of religious vindication by virtue of conquest, you know the usual "History is written by the winners" sort of deal.

8:39 says that those who disbelieve "but cease" are forgiven. Those who do not relent in their unbelief are called to be killed. Do not try to make it seem as "self-defence" when to contest in this context is not to wage war but to rebel against Islamic teachings forced upon them. They (non-Muslims) already had to pay a tax just to live in the same cities as Muslims. It is not violence, but refusal. Islam in this context sees disbelief or the refusal to believe as a transgressional act of war by proxy, to question or doubt islamic doctrine is to challenge Islam itself in their eyes, especially ISIS's, hence their swift and self-validating acts of terror.

48: 16-17 Ah so someone who does not believe and turns away from Islam is doomed to hellfire? Tell me, as an atheist, do I deserve to burn in hell? Who am I to be judged by a vitriolic child of a "god", or his war-mongering child-molester prophet who ascended to heaven on a winged unicorn, of all things.

Now tell me, 61:9 as a direct source, how will Islam become the largest religion? how will it achieve this? Will it be the non-sensical argument that "people will see that the words of allah are true and greatest and better than all other ludicrous religions" (ignoring that islam is one of those ludicrous religions) or will it bring not peace but the sword? I wonder how many followrs you'll get with the following two methods:

method 1: have a small stand in a public thorouhare with books and magazins on Islam in the world

method 2: March in a town with weapons and threaten people with death if they do not convert.

Historically speaking, mthod 2 has always been the most prevalent. And it always will be.

Now let's open up the women's rights can of worms Islam has for us:

Here are the following verses practiced in most Muslim-dominated countries in accordance to their scriptures:


4: 11

2: 282 ---Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses. lets see what this debater does, shall we?

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse. If this is what Muhammad meant, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

In other texts as venerated as the Quran:

Sahih Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Sahih Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.

Sahih Bukhari (2:29) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven mentioned explicitly by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Sahih Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'" In other words, the most important thing a woman brings to marriage is between her legs.

Sahih Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'" These are the words of Muhammad's favorite wife, complaining of the role assigned to women under Islam.

Abu Dawud (2155) - Women are compared to slaves and camels with regard to the "evil" in them.

Ishaq 593 - "As for Ali, he said, 'Women are plentiful, and you can easily change one for another.'" Ali was raised as a son by Muhammad. He was also the 4th caliph. This comment was made in Muhammad's presence without a word of rebuke from him.

Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another." - Even in this world, Muhammad treated women like party favors, handing out enslaved women to his cronies for sex.

Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Muhammad traded captured women for horses.

Al-Tirmidhi 3272 - "When Allah's Messenger was asked which woman was best he replied, 'The one who pleases (her husband) when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives a command, and does not go against his wishes regarding her person or property by doing anything of which he disapproves'."

Tabari VIII:117 - The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims."

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty."

Ishaq 969 - "Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their persons." - This same text also says that wives may be beaten for "unseemliness".

Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves." From Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon'.

Now forgive me, but does not all of this come from the reputable books Islam has to offer? From the words and saying of the prophet by Islamic scholars? Does ISIS not do any of these?

Case and point.
Debate Round No. 2


Before I say something let me give you some advice. Never ever use At-Tabari to try to prove Islam wrong, the very beginning of this book mentions that it is just a collection of whatever wherever and is not authentic at all.
I am surprised you are still mentioning 2:191-193, scholars keep telling you that this is talking about the conquest of Mecca and yet you keep mentioning this. It's clear that if the polytheists did cease then the Muslims would not fight them. The Qur'an is not just a book of laws and guidance, but it is also a book where history is recorded.

You made the claim that the Qur'an does mention that we can marry the people of the book. The following verse is complete and it refutes your statement.
This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. (Qur'an 5:5)
A quick rebuttal on the lies about Safiyyah:

The Qur'an prohibits marriage with minors, which is what we find 24:59 and 4:6. The age of marriage varies, even US states allow marriage at either 13,14 or 15. This criticism about Muhammad SAW marrying Aisha RA is very new because people were always marrying at young ages. You can't compare a 7th century Arabian desert with our time and location. Just 2 centuries ago people were marrying at 14-15. All of Muhammad's wives were widows, except for one and that was Aisha.

Regarding Jizyah. It is a form of tax for the non-Muslim HEALTHY mean. So women, the sick and the elderly didn't pay this tax. What are the advantages of this tax? These non-Muslims would not have to battle in war like the Muslims, on top of that this was a form of compenstation for the Muslims that paid Zakat for the poor. The Jiyah went to the poor Muslims and non-Muslims.

Sex slaves the way you understand them are prohibited.
"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a "dowry" like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. (Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta', Volume 2, page 734)

Sahih Muslim Book 015, Number 4082:
Hilal b. Yasaf reported that a person got angry and slapped his slave-girl. Thereupon Suwaid b. Muqarrin said to him: You could find no other part (to slap) but the prominent part of her face. See I was one of the seven sons of Muqarrin, and we had but only one slave-girl. The youngest of us slapped her, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded us to set her free.

You don't seem to believe that chapter 8 is mainly talking about war, look at the title "THE SPOILS OF WAR". Fitnah refers to oppression and persecution. So the Muslims were commanded to fight until there was no more persecution and oppression.

Atheists who reject Islam will have a painful torment in the hereafter, every time their skin burns another layer of skin will be created for one purpose. So that they may taste the punishment. They will be given clothing made of fire, there will be clouds that will rain acid and when they are given food, they choke and their intestines disintegrate. They will be thirsty and they will be given a drink, but this drink is boiling water that will scold the faces and burn their insides. There are so many descriptions that no heart can imagine, but that's no problem for you since you don't even believe in the hellfire.

Regarding 61:9. Islam will surpass Christianity around 2100 due to conversion and fertility rate. Despite of the genocide on Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans and Palestinians. The largest Muslim country today is Indonesia and it started with 4 righteous merchants in Indonesia.

Before prophet Muhammad SAW, Arabs were literally burying baby girls alive for simply being female.

Qur'an '2:282 "O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing; let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do."
You completely took this verse out of context.

2:228 mentions that God gave men and women similar rights. Men have a degree above women in responsibility and authority. This is correct because men need to pay bills and food for their family, but the woman does not, she can work and keep her money without needing it spend of her family.

Quran (5:6) simply mentions basic Islamic rules, you simply lied here. This is not talking about "shaking hands" or whatever, this is talking about sexual intercourse, which makes one impure.

Qur'an 2:223. Stop it. Sodomoy/anal is not allowed in Islam and you are spewing nonsense.

Qur'an 4:3. How many wives did Abraham have? 2. Prophet Solomon had 700 wives. Muhammad SAW was offered the most beautiful women of Arabia to stop spreading Islam and he rejected, instead he married widows. Islam also prohibits marriage with more than one woman if the man cannot deal justly and righteously between them.

I have never seen someone complain about 53:27. What's wrong with this verse, could you clarify it?

I have already clarified that your understanding of sex slaves is prohibited in Islam.

I'm running out of characters, so again here are the Hadiths you brought forward, but this time explained:

I won't continue talking about the next Hadiths you presented for one reason.
Because you, my opponent has plagiarized from a popular anti-Islamic website:
Therefore I win the debate automatically.

You are in no way capable of criticising the morals of Islam because you're an atheist and since you are an atheist your morals are not objective, but subjective and tend to change due to new ideas and cultures. A great example is homosexuality. Seventy years ago you were mentally ill if you were homosexual, but today the whole world descends on you if you just disagree with homosexuality.
Islam prohibits the killing of children. ISIS kills children.
Islam prohibits the killing of women. ISIS kills women.
Islam prohibits the destruction of houses. ISIS destroys houses.
Islam prohibits the killing of the elderly. ISIS kills the elderly.
Islam prohibits the killing of the sick. ISIS kills the sick.
Islam prohibits the destruction of houses of worship. ISIS destroys Mosques and Churches.
Islam prohibits the killing of Muslims. ISIS kills Muslims.
Islam prohibits the killing of people who do not participate in fighting. ISIS kills whoever.
Islam prohibits rape. ISIS rapes.
Islam commands Muslims to follow the law of the land that they live in. ISIS does not follow law.
Islam command Muslims to respect their parents to the fullest. ISIS does not respect parents nor' do they listen to them.
Islam says that there is no compulsion in religion. ISIS says "convert or die".
Islam prohibits suicide. ISIS performs suicide bombings.
Islam tells Muslims not to accuse other Muslims of disbelief. ISIS calls anyone that isn't a part of ISIS a disbeliever.
Only the Jam'aa will be granted paradise. ISIS are not part of the Jam'aa.
The kharijites are the worst of the creation and are the dogs of hell. ISIS are the filthy khawarijs and so they are the worst.

The very fact that 100% of recognized scholars disagree with ISIS proves my position and proves that you are wrong and I'm right.


The following segment is a rebuttal segment for the various crap you have spewed, apologist:

"Where history is recorded" - yes because being able to write in perfect detail the madness of the voices in his head when muhammad was unable to write is "fact", and so is his ascent to heaven on a winged unicorn. Stellar examples of historical revision and analysis, great stuff!!

You say that we cannot compare what they did back then to what we do now because that's "wrong" somehow. No, we can, and we will. To hold him as a role model in spite of the various war crimes and atrocities he and his ilk have committed is classic apologist "contextualisation". muhammad is a child rapist, a war monger, and a war criminal, and deserves nothing but disdain and disgust. The fact that you and your ilk venerate him so is a red flag in every respect of the word.

"All of Muhammad's wives were widows". Oh that makes everything okay, what a great guy he was. Marrying women who lost their husbands to his own soldiers, that seems like such a stellar and virtuous thing to do, for a misogynistic madman.

"From her value" - yes because being raped and tortured somehow devalues you, what a prime example of Islam's inherent misogyny, how they like to address women=en as if they were stock, and if something were to befall them they are deemed "damaged goods", where their "value" is degraded. Pathetic stone age way of thinking, fitting for a backward faith like Islam.

And you even admit that as an atheist my future is one of torment and hellfire. Funny how your profile says you're against torture, and yet this apparent apathy toward my eternal damnation is something you'll respond to only with this: "Should've believed in allah". Absolutely pathetic. To think in the 21st century that people like you are uncaring to peoples damnation and still profess to be nothing like ISIS. That is where you and ISIS are quite similar, you see. They wish hellfire upon me, and you do not care. The dichotomy between the moderate and the radical is show like this: The radical will behead you, but the moderate will hold down your feet. You really aren't all that different, and thinking you are is willful ignorance, then again you need that trait to believe in the garbage proposed in the Quran.

And I am in no way able to judge Islam because of my subjective morals due to my atheism. Because my values change with the course of time. Now see there is the problem: Muslims do not want change. Not to their faith system. Even though it is the source of all terrorist acts in the last 20 years, and has overshadowed any other in recent history. I guess my "subjectivity" is but my deficiency, like the inherent deficiency in women, is that not what your quran would have said, or indeed, says?

The problem is that moderate muslims and radical muslims, not that there's much difference really, is that one actually has the zeal to pick up a weapon. The other, the moderate, does not care much for those things, but feels free to chastise and slander his opponents by saying that they are unable to judge Islam. Let me guess, you are? As a muslim you are able to judge Islam? Oh but wait you cannot do that because that is a no-no. So who can judge Islam? No one?

Thought so. Case and point.

And the plagiarism? Not really, merely providing quotes from your book of lies with accurate understandings, devoid of muslim bias, with explanations given by people far more intelligent than I. If anyone/anything is guilty of plagiarism, it is my opponent and the quran. making the same apologist defences and arguments as so many others have before him, and the quran being laughably similar to the Bible, and the Torah before it.

You know, people joke about those three books being so laughably plagiarized from one another that if you submitted them to an academic marking board, you'd fail the course due to, you guessed it, plagiarism.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Overnight 1 year ago
@Vivec went into semantics towards the end. @CuriousFear wins in my opinion.
Posted by cwt002 1 year ago
Seems there are claims that many muslims are not radical but what about this information: (short video of actual research explained):
Posted by canis 1 year ago
No. They represent the true islam../the book.
Posted by vi_spex 1 year ago
isis is way to soft for islam, they would get their heads chopped of
Posted by Saberen 1 year ago
I've done an extensive similar debate on this subject not too long ago fell free to contact me if you would like support.
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