The Instigator
Schopenhauer
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
IrishWolverine
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

If God Exists, He Is Most Likely Indifferent.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
IrishWolverine
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/15/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 982 times Debate No: 56632
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

Schopenhauer

Pro

As the title says, no trolling or semantics. God is defined as an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. I look forward to the debate. First round acceptance
IrishWolverine

Con

I accept your challenge and agree to the parameters of this scenario. I look forward to this debate as well!
Debate Round No. 1
Schopenhauer

Pro

Thank you for accepting, I sincerely look forward to an interesting debate.
1. The Vastness Of The Cosmos
To believe that divinity is in fact not indifferent, one must accept that it cares for us for good or ill. This would mean that in a galaxy with billions of stars, in a universe with billions of galaxies, divinity would care for a young, ape like intelligent species. One might ask this question, perhaps we are particulalary interesting because we are alone as an intelligent species? Then this would imply a deity creating an entire universe, perhaps a multiverse, for a single species. Surely then this deity must be either completely insane, or has created the cosmos at random, implying indifference.
http://www.esa.int...
2. The Story Of Humanity
Humans have had a rough time. We have suffered numerous tragedies and deaths (genocides, floods, mass murders, earthquakes, etc.). But we have also have had great heroes through time. The problem with having a God that is not in fact indifferent is that the deity would have allowed and created both suffering and happiness, if not, then this God could not possibly be all powerful. Either it has allowed the course of humanity to simply take its path, or it is completely insane, either way it must be indifferent to the human soul, what it needs, what sustains it. This deity, if it is not indifferent, would have had to allow humanity to wallow and die and know nearly absolutely nothing about the grand cosmic scene for the majority of humanities time it has spent on the planet so far. One may state then that the time we have had so far in the Universe is nothing compared to the future, and thus inconsequential. If so, then the deity would be ignorant to the time sense of humans, and thus this God would not be omniscient, and indifferent to humanities plight in humanities dark ages. Not only this, but why would a deity choose evolution as a course of cultivating humanity? Why would it keep its will hidden? The answer to both is that it cares little for humanity, if it exists then it must be a being that is an indifferent prime mover. Not only this, but this being is so foreign to humans that it is completely indifferent to us, this being is simply completely random, chaotic, and insane. It is spontaneous and thus cannot possibly have the focus to shape humanity, it simply would see an explosion of particles form into whatever comes up next.
3. The Earth is Hostile To Us
Earthquakes, floods and tornadoes are all products of nature with non supernatural mechanisms.. Thus they do not descend from the passions of a hateful God. But a loving God seems to care very little. One may argue that because it is natural, it is an equal to humanity in the eyes of the divine, but by implication, this would mean that God is indifferent to humanity, and lets it be wasted away by natures cruelty. Thus the only explanation would be indifference once more, as this God simply allows the needless destruction of human lives in by products of nature. This deity cares very little for the human condition.
4. The Universe Itself Is Indifferent
If the Universe was created by a God, then surely it would make sense that this universe comes from the mind and essence of God, thus God must be as indifferent as the Cosmos. The Cosmos is a mirror of divinity, and we see that the Cosmos is indifferent through its thoughtless, chaotic destruction. Take for example the supernova of an exploding star, obliterating entire solar systems, or the void of a black hole, devouring light itself. While not entirely malicious itself, these phenomenon suggest a blind, indifferent, idiot God.
I rest my case. Thank you, and I eagerly await your response.
IrishWolverine

Con

To begin, I would clarify your resolution: when we say "indifferent" we mean to say that while this hypothetical God went to the trouble of creating the known universe and all in it, He does not care what becomes of it. That is to say, He does not have a grand plan and destiny for His creatures, specifically us humans. We may live happy lives or miserable ones before we all meet the same fate. Now, this does not rule out the possibility that God intervenes from time to time. Because indifference does not mean one must both intervene and care about the end result, an all powerful God may alter the tide of events because it amuses Him, or for other reasons that we, in our limited understanding, can not comprehend.

Now this line of reasoning lends weight to my side, I think. For if we believe that there is an unlimited God who created all, then it stands to reason that there IS a purpose for it. For a God who knows all would not need to create a universe to see it play out; He would know all possible scenarios and outcomes without having them play out in actuality. Therefore, actually creating this universe suggests a specific intention and end that He hopes to see achieved. This is not proof by any means, but we are arguing for the most likely explanation.


--1. The Vastness Of The Cosmos
To believe that divinity is in fact not indifferent, one must accept that it cares for us for good or ill. This would mean that in a galaxy with billions of stars, in a universe with billions of galaxies, divinity would care for a young, ape like intelligent species. One might ask this question, perhaps we are particulalary interesting because we are alone as an intelligent species? Then this would imply a deity creating an entire universe, perhaps a multiverse, for a single species. Surely then this deity must be either completely insane, or has created the cosmos at random, implying indifference.

The scale of this existence would not demand that the God who created it is indifferent. For if said God is all-powerful and omnipresent, then it is no challenge for Him to care for all universes, even if there are an infinite amount which have existed for eons. This God has to ability to care for the ape like creatures of Earth in the Milky Way while at the same time caring for gas giants that live light years away on planets made of lava, or even creatures that exist on different planes and dimensions entirely. You accurately point out that this existence is not limited to one galaxy, and most likely not even to one universe. It therefore stands to reason that we are NOT the only creatures of intelligence existing right now, and if so, then this Supreme Being is capable of caring about all who exist.


-- 2. The Story Of Humanity
Humans have had a rough time. We have suffered numerous tragedies and deaths (genocides, floods, mass murders, earthquakes, etc.). But we have also have had great heroes through time. The problem with having a God that is not in fact indifferent is that the deity would have allowed and created both suffering and happiness, if not, then this God could not possibly be all powerful. Either it has allowed the course of humanity to simply take its path, or it is completely insane, either way it must be indifferent to the human soul, what it needs, what sustains it. This deity, if it is not indifferent, would have had to allow humanity to wallow and die and know nearly absolutely nothing about the grand cosmic scene for the majority of humanities time it has spent on the planet so far. One may state then that the time we have had so far in the Universe is nothing compared to the future, and thus inconsequential. If so, then the deity would be ignorant to the time sense of humans, and thus this God would not be omniscient, and indifferent to humanities plight in humanities dark ages. Not only this, but why would a deity choose evolution as a course of cultivating humanity? Why would it keep its will hidden? The answer to both is that it cares little for humanity, if it exists then it must be a being that is an indifferent prime mover. Not only this, but this being is so foreign to humans that it is completely indifferent to us, this being is simply completely random, chaotic, and insane. It is spontaneous and thus cannot possibly have the focus to shape humanity, it simply would see an explosion of particles form into whatever comes up next.

If we agree that this prime mover is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-present, then it allows for the belief that He sees far beyond any human plans, and that He comprehends things that our limited intelligence could never understand. This is the basis for many faiths, and while we are not arguing a religious angle, it may still be accepted without the weight of a religion. We may accept that humans exist for some unknown plan, and that human suffering is a part of this plan, positive or otherwise. Now compared to an all-knowing God, any degree of intelligence which is not said God's would appear to be from a dark age. Our time on this earth is relatively nothing compared to an immortal God. Thus any creation will dwarf compared to the greatness of a God, but this does not mean it is a creation in vain, or without purpose. It actually follows that creation must be limited, because an infinitely powerful God would not be able to create an existence more powerful or impressive than Himself. Further, if we can accept that there are countless galaxies, dimensions and creatures, then it follows that some will be less impressive than others by comparison.


--3. The Earth is Hostile To Us
Earthquakes, floods and tornadoes are all products of nature with non supernatural mechanisms.. Thus they do not descend from the passions of a hateful God. But a loving God seems to care very little. One may argue that because it is natural, it is an equal to humanity in the eyes of the divine, but by implication, this would mean that God is indifferent to humanity, and lets it be wasted away by natures cruelty. Thus the only explanation would be indifference once more, as this God simply allows the needless destruction of human lives in by products of nature. This deity cares very little for the human condition.

As stated above, it is within the realm of possibility that human suffering is not in vain, but useful to a degree which only the all powerful God can understand. However, I will add and say that in times of such destruction, full human potential is also realized. The best in mankind comes out in the worst of times; compassion, bravery, self-sacrifice. These suggests a higher purpose than simple survival on a forgotten rock; otherwise, God would not have bothered.


--4. The Universe Itself Is Indifferent
If the Universe was created by a God, then surely it would make sense that this universe comes from the mind and essence of God, thus God must be as indifferent as the Cosmos. The Cosmos is a mirror of divinity, and we see that the Cosmos is indifferent through its thoughtless, chaotic destruction. Take for example the supernova of an exploding star, obliterating entire solar systems, or the void of a black hole, devouring light itself. While not entirely malicious itself, these phenomenon suggest a blind, indifferent, idiot God.

The Cosmos may be seen as chaotic, however it is also apparent that the Cosmos work with perfect harmony as well. Planets circle stars with precision(including Earth, upon which life would not be possible without such precision). Seasons pass with the proper timing, allowing for the growth and regeneration of Earth's inhabitants. Physics, mathamatics and biological functions are condusive to the ordering and growth of societies. The Cosmos are therefore ordered, not just random cycles of random destruction. Out of total chaos can only come total chaos, but because there is order(imperfect though it is), it follows that there must be a driving purpose behind it.

I applaud your argument Sir. To Round 3!
Debate Round No. 2
Schopenhauer

Pro

I apologize, I will not be able to continue this debate because of unexpected ocurrences occurring. Thank you for having this debate with me, and I hope to eventually continue it. Again my apologies. Everybody vote for IrishWolverine. I forfeit all rounds.
IrishWolverine

Con

I still commend my worthy opponent for a debate well argued, several of his points were extremely air tight and challenging to answer. Please take this into consideration when voting.
Debate Round No. 3
Schopenhauer

Pro

Schopenhauer forfeited this round.
IrishWolverine

Con

Posting so as not to forfeit. It was a good debate topic, I hope to tackle it again!
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by inaudita 3 years ago
inaudita
SchopenhauerIrishWolverineTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: I shall enforce the Forfeit