The Instigator
Namelesshero2000
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
donald.keller
Pro (for)
Winning
19 Points

If God exists, do we have free will?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
donald.keller
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/30/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 729 times Debate No: 36161
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (4)

 

Namelesshero2000

Con

I would like to start by briefly explaining a paradox in both The Bible and The Qur'an.

Both holy books share two statements:
1) "God knows everything (including the future)."

Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

2) God gave us free will.

Proverbs 16:9
"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."

After thinking about it, I realized these two statements are contradictory. When God, supposedly, created the first humans, he didn't just create them, he created every generation that ever walked The Earth. Because to a being who knows the future and the past, the exact time of his actions is irrelevant. So when he created Adam and Eve, he engineered every single moment of our lives. Including every sin.

Which brings us to the third religious statement: "God punishes all who sin." In that case, does God punish us for doing what he made us do himself.

If my opponent explains how these two statements can coexist, I will admit defeat.
donald.keller

Pro

Well, to start, knowing something will happen isn't the same as making it happen. Let's compare life to Chess.

After thinking about it, I realized these two statements are contradictory. When God, supposedly, created the first humans, he didn't just create them, he created every generation that ever walked The Earth. Because to a being who knows the future and the past, the exact time of his actions is irrelevant.

In Chess, if I was all knowing as God is, than I would know that you are moving your Knight to the left. I'm not making you move your Knight left, you are, I just know your doing it.

Point is, Knowing someone's move is not the same as making that move for them, or making them make that move. You have free choice, so you could have moved your Queen forward, your Pawn to the edge of the board, or your Rook into the enemy flanks... You could have, but YOU chose not to.. YOU chose to move your knight left. I just know you were going to choose that, but it was still you that chose it.

So when he created Adam and Eve, he engineered every single moment of our lives.

Now I set up the board to my design. It didn't start like that, but by move one, I have started my grand plan. Move 52, and now you're in a position were you are going to move the Knight left. I set you up to. You chose all your moves, I just chose my moves so you would chose the moves I wanted you to chose, but at any point, you could have chose differently.

God doesn't do this as often as you think. He makes plans for everyone, and many people ruin them immidately, but God is constantly making plans for your life, and even if he does, you're still choicing to accept that plan or go against it, and often times, you do go against it.

Even now, you can chose different, you could move your Knight right, or push your Rook forward. You still can choose to move whatever piece you want. It's call influence. Influence doesn't make a choice for you. It tries to make you make that choice, but you can still chose to go against it.

Example... I was brought up to be Conservative, but I could still vote for a Obama, but I chose not to. My upbringing simply influenced my free choice, but didn't make the choice for me. I still had the freedom to choose.

Point is, God influenced our choices to match a plan he has, but we still choice our paths. It's not uncommon for people to go against and/or ruin a plan God had. It happens all the time. God influenced a lot of things, and people still go against it. Example, Jonah. He kept influencing Jonah to go to Ninivah, but Jonah chose not to go. Of course, with Ninivah's importance, God had to keep Influencing Noah. Even after the Big Fish swallowed Jonah, he could have still chose to not go. If Noah was going to say no, God would have kept influencing him. In the end, it was simply Jonah that finally chose to go.

Now God stuck to it because the lifes of 100,000+ people was at stake. He usually doesn't go at something that hard. God making plans is a sign that we have free will... If he didn't make plans because he knew we'd go against him, than we wouldn't have the free will to have gone against him. If we didn't have free will, then God wouldn't be making plans, nor would he have kept trying to convince

Another example, Sin. God influences us not to sin, but we still choose to sin. I'll save this one for the next issue.

I can make plans for you, and you still go against them. I can try to influence you, but it's always been your choose.

Including every sin.

No, Sin is actually an example of how we choose to ignore God's plans and influence. God never plans on you sinning, he plans on you not to.

I turn left and I'm comfronted by a bully. He makes fun of me, and I think about punching him. God has planned for this moment, he influenced me to go left, of course I could have gone right. You see, God wants me to show love to the bully... A move that would always stick with the guy. I instead choose to get mad and punch him.

God does make plans, but we can, and often do, go against them. Of course he often rebuilds his plan to fit, but only for so long. After so many attempts, God just lets you go.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion.

God knowing your next move is not the same as choicing your next move.

God influencing your decision is not the same as making your decision for you.
If he could make your decision for you, he wouldn't need to make plans and influence us. We also would never sin.

Us sinning is an example of God influencing our choice, and us choicing to go the other way.
Debate Round No. 1
Namelesshero2000

Con

Namelesshero2000 forfeited this round.
donald.keller

Pro

Did I show you how they can work together?

I remember asking myself the same question when I was 13.
Debate Round No. 2
Namelesshero2000

Con

Namelesshero2000 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by donald.keller 4 years ago
donald.keller
I feel you do not understand the different between knowing what someone will do, and their free will. I can know what you are going to do, but I'm not making you do it, it's you're own will choosing to do it.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by IslamAhmadiyya 4 years ago
IslamAhmadiyya
Namelesshero2000donald.kellerTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pretty much what everyone else said.
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
Namelesshero2000donald.kellerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: F.F.
Vote Placed by rajun 4 years ago
rajun
Namelesshero2000donald.kellerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con clearly loses and doesn't rebuttal anything. I agree with ragnar that Con is being disrespectful by not admitting defeat and making Pro wait till the clock countdowns.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
Namelesshero2000donald.kellerTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF (next time log in to admit defeat, you'll get some conduct votes for such). This is always an interesting thing to ponder. I've seen this come up as semantics arguments a couple times, on unrelated issues.