The Instigator
whatledge
Pro (for)
Winning
21 Points
The Contender
FMA
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

If God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, Predestination is Evident

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,900 times Debate No: 12241
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (4)

 

whatledge

Pro

I assert that if God is omniscient and omnipotent, predestination is evident.
For this argument, I ask my opponent to agree with these attributes of God.
God: Omniscient, Omnipotent, Creator.
_____________________________________________________________

=Omniscient Creator=

God knows everything. He knew everything before the universe came into existence, and certainly before I came into existence. If he knows everything, that implies that, he knew my fate before I came into existence. As God is the creator of everything, and created me, completely aware of my fate, my life was already predestined before I came into existence. It is impossible for an omniscient creator to allow free will. The two are not compatible, as an omniscient creator would be fully aware of the "free" choices made by his creation.

=Novelist Analogy=

God is much like a novelist of the universe. My personal view is that God creates to appreciate his creation, much like how a musician, poet, and artist create to appreciate theirs. Now if God is the novelist, this makes me a protagonist. My story has already been written in God's omniscient mind. Even if he is omnipresent (was, is, and is to come), even if he is, right this moment, with me as a 5 year old, and with me in the future as a 50 year old, it does not change my past or my present. My story has been complete before my I was born. Omnipresence only implies that God has written my story, and is choosing to reread them for his enjoyment.

=Free Will is an Illusion=

I believe that free will exists as an illusion. Whatever we do out of "choice" has already been calculated and decided by God before any of us were brought into existence. But as we do not know our own futures, our illusion of free will is complete. This very debate was done out of my choice, but a choice that had already been decided and calculated by God.

=Omnipotence=

Omnipotence implies that he is in control over everything. Nothing that is aside from his will can be done. What if our "free will" was against God's will? Free will implies that God is NOT omnipotent, as free will gives US the power, and not God. If it was in God's will for us to have free will, then he cannot be an omniscient creator.

=Conclusion=

I disagree with many of Calvinist beliefs. But logic tells me that, Romeo and Juliet will always die in the play written by William Shakespeare, no matter how many times I read it. No matter what page I choose to read from, in the end, both Romeo and Juliet will die. It has been written, it will not change. Romeo and Juliet's fate were predestined by William Shakespeare, the omniscient creator of the play.

I look forward to my opponent's argument.
FMA

Con

We believe that we are given free will in this life, but Allah knows beforehand where we will end up and what we will do beforehand.

The question of fate and free will is one of the most intriguing topics in metaphysics and religion.
Man feels absolutely powerless, regarding many of the circumstances in which he/she finds him/herself. One might feel that there are so many givens, which one has to take for granted, and nothing can be done about them. On the other hand, there are many areas where one feels free to act. Look at the marvelous progress of humanity through the centuries. If humans were mere puppets, could we have managed all these wonderful achievements, which have made us so proud of human potential?

Indeed the question of pre-destination and free will has haunted Man for so long; but it has been adequately dealt with in the Holy Qur'an.

From the Qur'anic point of view, Man is not completely a master of his fate; nor is he a puppet subject to the hazards of destiny. It is true that God's sovereignty is all pervading and nothing falls outside its purview. This means that God knows everything and it is according to His will, things happen here. The universe is completely subject to the overriding power of God, and nothing happens without God willing it to be so.

However, God not only created everything, but He determined its nature and scope. In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He gave Man limited power and great freedoms, including the freedom of choice. It is because of this autonomy, enjoyed by Man, that he/she is held accountable for the individual deeds.

Couldn't have said it better.

Source
http://www.readingislam.com...
Debate Round No. 1
whatledge

Pro

I thank my good friend for accepting this debate.

"We believe that we are given free will in this life, but Allah knows beforehand where we will end up and what we will do beforehand."

So my opponent here concedes that god knowingly created us, also knowing our fate.

"The question of fate and free will is one of the most intriguing topics in metaphysics and religion.
Man feels absolutely powerless, regarding many of the circumstances in which he/she finds him/herself. One might feel that there are so many givens, which one has to take for granted, and nothing can be done about them. On the other hand, there are many areas where one feels free to act. Look at the marvelous progress of humanity through the centuries.
"If humans were mere puppets, could we have managed all these wonderful achievements, which have made us so proud of human potential?"

We are proud because we believe we were responsible for it. My opponent claims that God just knows and does not intervene with our decisions. Sadly, this does not exempt us from predestination. Even if god does not intervene with our decisions, if he already KNEW our decisions prior to our existence predstination is evident. Furthermore, predestination is not incompatible with "If humans were mere puppets, could we have managed all these wonderful achievements, which have made us so proud of human potential?" statement. God could have sipmly predestined that we "manage all these wonderful achievements", as god is omnipotent, this is no issue at all.

"Indeed the question of pre-destination and free will has haunted Man for so long; but it has been adequately dealt with in the Holy Qur'an."

We shall see.

"From the Qur'anic point of view, Man is not completely a master of his fate; nor is he a puppet subject to the hazards of destiny. It is true that God's sovereignty is all pervading and nothing falls outside its purview."

"This means that God knows everything and it is according to His will, things happen here. The universe is completely subject to the overriding power of God, and nothing happens without God willing it to be so."

I agree to this 100%. Especially : "The universe is completely subject to the overriding power of God, and nothing happens without God willing it to be so." Key word : Without God willing it to be so. So if my free will was against the will of God, then what? Nothing aside from what "God is willing it be so", so how can I be held accountable for anything? What "free" choices I made was what God willing it to be so.

"However, God not only created everything, but He determined its nature and scope. In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He gave Man limited power and great freedoms, including the freedom of choice."

Complete contradiction. We do not have "freedom of choice" if only what "God is willing it be so" can happen. End of story.

"It is because of this autonomy, enjoyed by Man, that he/she is held accountable for the individual deeds."

No. As stated above: if God's will is the only thing that can be done, I cannot be held accountable for God's will.

What my opponent is saying is this:

God: There is choice A and choice B. Choice A = good, Choice B = Bad. You will choose Choice B, it is my will that you do. But you can still choose because you have freedom. But know that my will is inexorable, and you must choose choice B. But I'm giving you a choice. A choice to choose B.

Me: I choose B.

God: You have sinned. You are accountable for your free choices and evil deeds. Go to hell.

My opponent: "Couldn't have said it better."

My friend, I am sorry to hear that.
Note: my arguments in round 1 have yet to be countered.
FMA

Con

FMA forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
whatledge

Pro

Extend my arguments.
FMA

Con

FMA forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by whatledge 7 years ago
whatledge
Sure, I'll look forward to it.
Posted by popculturepooka 7 years ago
popculturepooka
Whatledge, I'll debate you on this topic after you're done with this one.
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Vote Placed by Brendan21 7 years ago
Brendan21
whatledgeFMATied
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Vote Placed by Valtarov 7 years ago
Valtarov
whatledgeFMATied
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Vote Placed by FREEDO 7 years ago
FREEDO
whatledgeFMATied
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Vote Placed by whatledge 7 years ago
whatledge
whatledgeFMATied
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