The Instigator
Skynet
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Projectid
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points

If God is good, why is there sin?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Projectid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/3/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 797 times Debate No: 37337
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (2)

 

Skynet

Con

This is the debate I sense Projectid really wanted to have with me last time, and it's a much more hairy-looking question.

Pro will take the stance that a good God would not have allowed sin to exist in the first place, so God is not good.

I, Con, will take the stance that God is good, despite the existance of sin.

To avoid setting up my opponent on a straw horse, I encourage him to more clearly define his own position.

The Bible is assumed to be accurate in history and the nature of God. This debate will attempt to answer whether or not God is really good.
Projectid

Pro

I am thankful for the challenge by my opponent and gladly accept it. I look forward to debating this issue which has been in the debating arena for as far back as the days of Epicurus. I accept this debate only based on the agreement of the premises and definitions given below.

1. God is all powerful: (Omnipotent: 1. Almighty or infinite in power, as God.2.having very great or unlimited authority or power. http://dictionary.reference.com...)

2. God is all good: (Omni-benevolent: Kind and generous towards everyone and everything. http://www.collinsdictionary.com...)

3. Evil exists: ( Evil: Morally reprehensible: http://www.merriam-webster.com...)

I agree with the said terms of Bible and the said terms of the history and nature of God stated by my opponent.

This debate will attempt to answer whether or not God is all good and/ or whether or not He is all powerful. I will not debate whether evil exists, my opponent has already stated in his stance that evil does indeed exist. As long as he agrees with the stated dictionary definition of evil then we are good to go.

I look forward to an interesting debate, thank you again for the challenge.
Debate Round No. 1
Skynet

Con

I agree with all three points, with an adjustment to 2. While God has been kind and generous to all (rain falls on the rightous and the wicked) I do not believe this means God is always kind and generous in every situation to everyone, because his just nature requires retributive punishment at times, which is not kind, but is still good considering the situation. i.e. justice is good.

A closer look at evil is required to answer this question. Some examples, poison, weapons of war, and self-mutilation. When man was created, he was created in the image of God on the 6th day. When God looked at all he had made, he said it was VERY good. Sin had not yet entered the world. After the fall of man, there were some curses upon us, and on the Earth. Genesis 1:16-19 details the curses. None of which indicate a discernable change in the structure of man's body, or the basic laws of physics.

We have no reason to believe from the Bible that man's skull structure changed in any way, and there is no indication that we are structurally much different than Adam and Eve. The ability to manipulate food with our tounge and teeth would have been the same. Yet intentionally biting one's own tounge off under normal circumstances would be self-mutilation, and morally wrong. But such an action would have been technically possible before the fall. Likewise, there is no indication the basic laws of physics or elements found on the periodic table changed after the fall. Poisons would have been technically possible, as well as other weapons. Adultery would have been physically possible, if Adam and Eve had produced any generations before the fall, but at that time they would have had no inclination to indulge.

All sins that I can think of are perversions of something normally good. A stick could be used as a walking staff or a club. But there's nothing wrong with the stick itself. Explosives could be used to dig irrigation canals, or make mutilating landmines. Language can be used to encourage or destroy. Sex can be good in a healthy relationship, or it can be perverted into a means of control and hurt.
God was very creative making the Universe, and that creativity seems to be part of God's image he gave us. Warning us from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil kept us from turning our creativity to making good parts into a bad machine.

But if the knowledge of Evil existed before the fall, doesn't that mean God knew of it, and if he was all there was before Creation, doesn't that mean evil is part of his character?

No. God is all good, per round one, and the Bible. Follow me for a second. Before the fall, the world was open to man in ways we have never experienced. No ill effects of aging, no death, no crime or dishonesty. Any project he can concieve of, it is likely he will eventually succeed, after all, he has eternity. Which is trillions of years into infinity. However, right then, in the moment, his knowledge is very limited. He won't sin, but will undoubtedly make mistakes that have no moral bearing. He will make prototypes of tools that will fail, try experiments that will indicate what does and doesn't work. After learning working from non-working processes, he will have knowledge of how to do things that will fail. To intentionally do something "faulty" to harm someone else is not in his nature, though he technically could. It's not until he eats of the tree he was warned against that he becomes aware of the sinful potential of all that he has been given to work with. God, being good and perfect, would be aware of this potential, but have no inclination to do so.

God remains good, and the potential for sin can exist but is never acted upon by him.
Projectid

Pro

First I will deal with my opponents statements about the Garden of Eden and the so called "Fall of Man".

1. Contention: Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden? Was God tempting them with this tree?

It is said in James 1:13-15; 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Since scripture says that God tempts no one, its must be that God was not all knowing of the consequence of placing the tree there. Although He did warn them of it so He must of known that they would do it. Either way He could have just not put it there. It is strange to me that God made a world that is full of sin, yet heaven is said to have no sin, so why not make earth the same way?

2. Contention: If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil before they ate of it, then how could they have known it was either good or bad to actually eat of the fruit of this tree. This really boggles my mind, think about it, they had no understanding of good and evil, yet they are punished for eating of the fruit which gave them the very things they lacked in committing the offense against God.

3. Contention: Who put the serpent in the garden, who gave the serpent the ability to talk?
God put the tree there, God told them not to eat of it even though they had no understanding of the knowledge of good and evil until after they ate of it. God created the serpent and obviously gave the serpent the ability to speak to eve.
It is apparent that God set this whole thing up to work out this way, it seems deviant to me, it seems evil.

4. Contention: Why are we condemned because of Adam and Eves sin?

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The whole story of the fall of man is actual proof that God is not all good. He set this whole thing up for man to fail. Sin is actually a result of God, not man. If He is all powerful then he had the power to create us without sin. I am sure we will hear the argument about free will, but that will be a bust, because it doesn't work, we will see which argument the Con uses to explain why an all powerful, all knowing, and an all good God allows sin to exist.

Now on to my arguments:

Good is opposed to evil, in such a way that a good thing always eliminates evil as far as it can, and that there are no limits to what an omnipotent thing can do. From this it follows that a good omnipotent thing eliminates evil completely, and then the propositions that a good omnipotent thing exists, and that evil exists, are INCOMPATIBLE.

An omnipotent and completely benevolent God would not permit evil (sin) to exist.

God is either limited in His power (Not omnipotent) and therefore cannot prevent all evil or God has limited goodness (Not completely benevolent) and does not want to prevent all evil. There is also the option that God is just evil or non existent.
Debate Round No. 2
Skynet

Con

Skynet forfeited this round.
Projectid

Pro

For what ever reason my opponent forfeited the last round, I will continue with my arguments.

Contention 5. The Con: "All sins that I can think of are perversions of something normally good."

I will just use one example to prove this thought wrong, MURDER. By no means is murder a perversion of something normally good. I could state others but this will suffice to prove that the Con is wrong about his statement.

Contention 6. The Con: "To intentionally do something "faulty" to harm someone else is not in his nature, though he technically could. It's not until he eats of the tree he was warned against that he becomes aware of the sinful potential of all that he has been given to work with. God, being good and perfect, would be aware of this potential, but have no inclination to do so. God remains good, and the potential for sin can exist but is never acted upon by him."

According to the Con, God knew this would happen but did nothing about it. God does NOT remain good as I have shown and will continue to show, God had power to create anything He wanted, yet He creates man to sin.

Contention 7: In my second contention I spoke of Adam and Eve's lack of knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree. This was in reference to how their not knowing it was wrong to eat of because they had no knowledge of good and evil. To add to that contention I pose this thought. How did Eve know that dying was a bad thing?

Rhonda Denise Johnson made this conclusion in an article she wrote entitled "Bible Problematics Part 1 ~ The Fall of Man Story":
Eve tells the serpent, "That"s the forbidden fruit, which if we eat we die." Apparently, it occurred to her that dying was perhaps something she did not want to do. But nothing had ever died in her world, so she had no real concept of death; otherwise, she would not have thought the fruit was useful for food and wisdom.
http://new.exchristian.net...

She couldn't have known it was bad or evil, she had no knowledge of good or evil, she had not eaten of the tree yet.

Contention 8. Adam was not born as a baby, he was created by God out of dust, according to the Bible. It follows that Adam was created as a man. So he never spent the time to grow up and learn as we do from those adults around us today. So how was it that Adam could speak or do anything for that matter? We must assume that God programmed Adam this way. So do we blame Adam for his actions or God for making him that way? For an all knowing, all loving, and an all powerful God to create a man that would immediately fall on his face is quite strange. Some would call that an evil thing for God to do.

Now on to my arguments: God is NOT all GOOD

1. Hell: The Con says God is all good. How is it that an ALL LOVING GOD SENDS ANYONE TO HELL. If we are indeed created in His image, then whatever greatest thought magnified to be about how to treat those I love, God's should be greater. I would never send my children to hell, especially if I created them. In my first arguments I spoke of heaven, if heaven was created apart from sin and suffering, then we know that God could have: A. Created earth in the same manner or B. Just by-past the earth thing and we should all be in heaven. Why the game, was God bored? A perfect God could not possibly need us, so why all the suffering and why all the sin?

2. Suffering: An all loving, all powerful, and an all good God would not allow so much suffering to happen in this world. Christians make attempts to quantify this suffering by using different tactics, yet none are suffice. Perhaps if the Con responds in the next round, the Con can make some of those arguments. A few other evils that God allows are starvation, genocide, rape, murder, and many more. God is not all good.

3. Natural Disasters: How is it that God does nothing to protect His people from such things? Why would He allow them in the first place? Why would HE make them happen?

4. Why did God create those people He knew would not believe in Him, did He do this just to watch us burn in the hell He created? If He knew before we were born what we would then why allow us to be born, or anyone that disbelieves for that matter?

5. My last argument for this round, and I think the most important one, is that the scriptures teach that God is indeed the author of evil.

Isaiah 45:7. "I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things". (KJV)

Many apologists claim that the word evil in the text does not mean evil but some other word that isn't the word evil or a word that makes God seem less than evil. However, the sources below show other passage that use the same word.
Isaiah 3:9; Isaiah 3:11; Isaiah 5:20; Isaiah 7:5; Isaiah 7:15-16; Isaiah 13:11; Isaiah 31:2; Isaiah 32:7; Isaiah 45:7; Isaiah 47:10-11; Isaiah 57:1; Isaiah 59:7; Isaiah 59:15; Isaiah 65:12; Isaiah 66:4 (King James Version)

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 07451
Original WordWord Origin
[rfrom (07489)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Ra`TWOT - 2191a,2191c

Here are some other ways this word is translated: bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
http://www.biblestudytools.com...

This passage definitely says that God is the author of evil. THIS ALONE PROVE MY ARGUMENT.

I think I have given my opponent enough to deal with this round.

God is not ALL GOOD. Up to this point the Con has not proved his argument that God is ALL GOOD.

I have given plenty of examples in the last two rounds of the inadequacy of the Genesis account, I have given a logical argument that shows that God cannot be all good and allow sin (evil) to exist in my first argument in round two. I have shown one scripture reference that directly proves that God is the author of evil. I have dealt with the thoughts and argument of my opponent and shown them to be false in proving God is all good.

I hope my opponent does not forfeit the rest of the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
Skynet

Con

My apologies for the forfeits. I am out of the country and internet access is more limited here than I had anticipated. I will retry this debate at a later date when I am back in the country.
Projectid

Pro

CON has forfeited this debate.

God is not ALL GOOD. Up to this point the Con has not proved his argument that God is ALL GOOD.

I have given plenty of examples in the last two rounds of the inadequacy of the Genesis account, I have given a logical argument that shows that God cannot be all good and allows sin (evil) to exist in my first argument in round two. I have shown one scripture reference that directly proves that God is the author of evil. I have dealt with the thoughts and argument of my opponent and shown them to be false in proving God is all good.

Vote for PRO
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by MysticEgg 3 years ago
MysticEgg
SkynetProjectidTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: I don't think God exists, and therefore placing labels or "moral", "good", "bad" etc... I don't hold to in the regard. That's why my opinion is neutral. Conduct to Pro due to forfeit. Spelling and grammar were fine. Pro placed forward better arguments for the resolution, and Pro was the only one to use sources.
Vote Placed by Orangatang 3 years ago
Orangatang
SkynetProjectidTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Thou shalt not forfeit.