The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Moroni23
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

If Jesus is not god, then you are committing idolatry.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/9/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 632 times Debate No: 86328
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

CapAhab

Pro

Round 1 - Opening Arguments Only (No rebuttals)
Round 2 - Rebuttals Only
Round 3 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

For those who believe the New Testament and Jesus as the messiah, but don't believe Jesus is the L-rd/G-d (Trinitarian - Oneness).

The Hebrew Bible will be the only authoritative word of G-d.

Idolatry = Worshipping another god / bowing to an idol
Moroni23

Con

Hello CapAhab!

Thank you for the opportunity to have this debate! Though it is inappropriate to introduce rules or arguments in the opening statements, I'd like to ask that the following definitions be considered for the readers who do not understand the difference as this is likely to come up in the debate.

The Trinity: The trinity is a believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are actually all the same exact person. This means when Jesus Christ was on the earth it was actually God the Father on the Earth and the Holy Ghost at the same exact time. It also means that right now in Heaven there is only one being there. God. As soon as you cross over into the believe that they are actually three different people all one in purpose you are crossing over into a belief called the Godhead.

The Godhead: The Godhead is a belief that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct people all one in purpose. This would mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and while he was on earth, God was in Heaven. This would also mean that in Heaven Christ sits on the right hand of God and is not actually our Heavenly Father.

I will debate the Con in this and will be arguing that although I do believe in the Godhead I am not blaspheming or committing idolatry according to Christs teachings in the KJV, or Hebrew Bible .

I assume when you stated "the Hebrew Bible will be the only authoritative word of God." You where referring to the KJV Bible both Old and New Testament. As both are commonly referred to as the "bible" and both are Hebrew meaning originally written in and of the Hebrew culture. This would rule out all other books such as The Quran, The Book of Mormon, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Catholic Bible, and any other source.

If by some odd chance you actually meant Torah, or Jewish Bible, then that should have been made more obvious. It would also be absolutely ridiculous to have a debate on the beliefs of Jesus Christ and his followers and then rule out the only fundamentally historical document we have of his teachings (The New Testament).

Thanks again and I look forward to a fun debate!
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

Hi Moroni23. I wanted to have a debate with those who don't believe in the Trinity. If Jesus is not god, then worshipping Jesus is idolatry.

We can ignore that debate then.

Just write "tie as per agreement between the two parties"
Moroni23

Con

As I have already mentioned...

"I will debate the Con in this and will be arguing that although I do believe in the Godhead I am not blaspheming or committing idolatry according to Christs teachings in the KJV, or Hebrew Bible."

I absolutely do not believe in the Trinity I believe in the Godhead. I have no idea what gave you the impression that I believe in the Trinity. I believe that Jesus Christ is NOT our Heavenly Father however I do believe that he is the Messiah and the savior of the world. I also believe that he is a member of the Godhead and sits on the right hand of God ((3)Mark 16:19).

This debate is already structured kind of weird and since you are the Pro you should have already posted your argument as it is my job as the Con to disproof and discredit it. Since you have posted no argument to support your case I will try and do both.

Your argument is probably something along the lines of because I believe Jesus is a God along with Heavenly father and the Holy Ghost then I am committing idolatry by worshiping him.

This will be a simple debate as I can disproof your theory in one round.

The very definition of Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a God (1). This would be something along the lines of worshiping a cow as a God found a lot in today"s Indian culture. You could even stretch this a lot and TRY to make it a little more relatable to American culture by saying that if you become so addicted to something like METH for instance, and it becomes your entire world to the point you actually believe METH is the God of the universe and then you start to worship METH by going to the Church of the METH and shaping your life in a way that would be pleasing to the Meth God, NOW you are committing idolatry. I personally haven"t seen this happen in modern American culture and the only place in the modern world I know of that would be "committing idolatry" would be India. One could argue that worshiping the cross that Christ died on would be a form of committing Idolatry since it is a physical object however nobody considers the cross to be a God. This practice however was very popular during the time of Moses. The Egyptians worshiped all sorts of idols from cats to birds to gold calfs. The Jews who were wondering in the wilderness after gaining freedom from hundreds of years of slavery under the Egyptians actually wanted to make silver and gold Gods to worship which is why God condemned Idolatry in the first place ((2)Exodus 20:23).

Unfortunately not only is your entire argument invalid because NO Christian that I know of worships a physical object as a God, I can give you a second reason why your argument is invalid as well. Most of us that believe in the Godhead do not worship Jesus Christ. We are taught by Jesus Christ that we should worship and give all the glory unto the Father who is in Heaven ((4) Mark 6:5). So even if Jesus Christ was a cow, or some other physical object, we STILL wouldn"t be committing Idolatry because if you believe in the Godhead and NOT the trinity, you believe that Jesus Christ is the SON of God, he sits on the right hand of God, and you do not worship him, you give all the credit and glory and worship unto God the Eternal Father. It"s important to note however that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and he did save us from our sins. We could never return to live with God if it wasn"t for Jesus Christ.

In conclusion, unfortunately this entire debate and your argument (that you haven"t even presented yet) is completely invalid because I have never met a Christian that worshiped a physical object.

(1)http://www.merriam-webster.com..., 2016
(2)https://www.biblegateway.com..., 2016
(3)https://www.biblegateway.com..., 2016
(4)https://www.biblegateway.com..., 2016
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for this debate.

My opponent believes in the Trinity. The trinity believes that Jesus, god the father and the HS are three distinct person, but in one. http://study.com...

Let me continue my debate, even if my opponent did not know he was trinitarian.

First Idols are not only physical objects. Ezekiel 14:3 says: ""Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all?"

So anything that takes more place than G-d (the L-RD) in the earth of someone is idolatry.

Second if Jesus is not God the father, then you put a second god in the face of G-d.

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

Furthermore, Moses said "The Lord alone led him (Israel out of Egypt); no foreign god was with him."

If the L-rd (the father) alone was there, Jesus was not!

Also G-d said

I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11.

Thus if Jesus is not G-d, as per what I said in the first round, he cannot be your saviour.

But again, my opponent believes in a godhead, which is also unbiblical.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. Deut 6

The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name. Zecharaiah 14

So if Jesus is an angel, the son of man, the memrah, or anything else than G-d himself, that would be idolatry of the earth. But my opponent does believe Jesus is god (part of the godhead). And he does believe in the trinity.

Thank you
Moroni23

Con

The Trinity vs the Godhead

I don't want to spend much time on this subject because it is irrelevant to my position as con and has nothing to do with proving your argument invalid but in the spirit of debate and education I'll enlighten you for a moment.

The trinity was created by the Council of Nicaea and thus they alone have the right to define what it means. For more information on this visit the links below (1,2,3). The trinity is completely different from the view of the Godhead and the difference is obvious if you read my definitions listed in opening arguments.

If you were to ask somebody who believes in the Trinity (and knows what it means) if they believe Jesus Christ is God the Father they will answer yes.

If you were to ask me, or somebody who believes in the Godhead the same question, they will answer no. I do not believe Jesus is GOD the father and thus I do not believe in the trinity. Please do not tell me or the readers what I believe and what I don"t believe when I have mentioned and made it very clear that I do not believe in the Trinity. Not classy Pro.

More and more Christians are starting to realize that the trinity is not biblical whatsoever and the very word 'Trinity' doesn't even appear one time in the bible. It's a concept invented by the Council of Nicaea about 300 or so years after the death of Jesus Christ.

Because the idea of Jesus Christ being God the Father makes no sense according to both logic and the scripture. Christians still holding on to the idea of the Trinity try and morph the believe to try and make it make sense this is why you see confused Christians saying that the Trinity and the Godhead are the same thing. But the whole idea behind the Trinity is that Jesus is God the Father and the Holy Ghost is also God the Father. Three different names all for the same person. Three different bodies all for the same person. The idea of the Godhead is that they are not the same people at all. They are three different people completely. Only one in purpose. If you are a Christian who believes that then you do not believe in the Trinity.

Debate on Committing Idolatry

As I have already mentioned and provided references for, this entire debate is easily disproven because Idolatry is literally the act of worshiping a physical object as a God. No Christian that I know of does this. I have provided exact definitions from the dictionary proving this is the literal scholastic definition, and I have also provided scriptural references showing this was Gods definition too.

In your above arguments you mention the commandment to not worship false idols. That is true and is also a commandment from God but it is not idolatry. Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a God. With the exception of Indian culture, we haven't done that in thousands of years that I know of and thus your entire argument is invalid.

You have mentioned that idols are not only physical and again you are correct. But Idolatry is the act of worshiping a physical object as a God. That hasn"t happened in thousands of years.

(1)http://www.tertullian.org..., 2016
(2)http://www.britannica.com..., 2016
(3)http://www.usccb.org..., 2016
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

This is the doctrine of the trinity :

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

http://www.desiringgod.org...

If Jesus in not G-d, then that person worship another god and breaks the first commandment. Because you fall into the definition of a trinitarian (at least for most trinitarian) any further argument go beyond the scope of this debate.

Do you believe Jesus is god?

If so, I clearly stated in the title "IF JESUS IS NOT god"

Thus my argument stand, if Jesus is not god, then you are breaking the first commandment by putting a god before the L-rd!
Moroni23

Con

*** "This is the doctrine of the trinity :

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God." ***

No. The doctrine of the trinity is that Jesus Christ IS God the Father. If you look at that exact diagram you showed me earlier (1), Jesus IS God the Father. The diagram in (1) shows this perfectly and was made sometime around the 12th century when religious leaders tried to make sense of the doctrine of the Trinity because they realized it was unbiblical. For more history or information on this please visit (2).

The doctrine I believe in is called the Godhead and it means that Jesus is NOT God the Father. I unfortunately don"t know how to make this any simpler.

*** "If Jesus in not G-d, then that person worship another god and breaks the first commandment. Because you fall into the definition of a trinitarian (at least for most trinitarian) any further argument go beyond the scope of this debate."
As I"ve mentioned a number of times I do not believe in the trinity.

"Do you believe Jesus is god?" ***

As I"ve already mentioned multiple times no I do not.

*** "If so, I clearly stated in the title "IF JESUS IS NOT god"

Thus my argument stand, if Jesus is not god, then you are breaking the first commandment by putting a god before the L-rd!" ***

Your argument is completely invalid and makes absolutely no sense. You have literally done nothing to rebuttal my arguments and honestly I don"t even think you are reading them lol. I"ve shown multiple times in my previous arguments that your argument is invalid and makes no sense.

(1)http://study.com..., 2016
(2)http://www.trinitytruth.org..., 2016

*** "__________" *** = Draws attention to what was written directly by PRO.
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer. Psalm 78:35

"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols. Isaiah 42:8
If Jesus is not G-d, then the L-rd would share his glory with Jesus. But he said he would not!

I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11
If Jesus is not G-d and G-d is the only savior, why the New testament say that Jesus is the saviour of the word?

If Jesus is not God, how could you put Jesus in the face of G-d and not breaking the first commandment?

And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

Explain me how Jesus could not fall into the category of New gods?

"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
You grew fat, you grew thick,
You are obese!
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you. Deut 32

And the LORD shall scatter you among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone. Deut 28

Thus if Jesus is not G-d, nor part thereof, you are committing idolatry.
Moroni23

Con

Thank you for taking the time to read this debate.

I"ll keep my closing arguments brief because I feel I have already said all that needs to be said in the body of the debate.

1)I have shown time and time again that PROS argument is completely invalid and PRO has done absolutely nothing to rebuttal my arguments. The definition for Idolatry is to worship a physical object as a GOD (1). No Christian I know does this so his entire argument is invalid.

2)I believe what PRO is trying to argue is that when GOD says "thou shalt worship no other GODS before me." People who believe in the Godhead, or the belief that Jesus Christ is not GOD, are breaking that commandment. This is also a very simple argument to disproof because I do not worship Jesus Christ above GOD. I recognize the importance of the savior and his atonement and I have a debt of gratitude I will probably never be able to repay, however I give all the glory unto GOD the Father, just as Jesus Christ did, and commands us to do. I do not put any other god or gods before GOD the father, so I am not breaking this commandment, easy.

3)I"m afraid this debate was just poorly thought out, however I appreciate the opportunity to partake in it and I hope I was able to educate in some way. Thanks for reading!

(1)http://www.merriam-webster.com..., 2016
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Never mind, you are a LDS... Your definition of the trinity is somehow different than what is accepted. You should not if you are doing evangelism with christians. Do you believe you are a polytheist?
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
What denomination are you Moroni?
Posted by Moroni23 1 year ago
Moroni23
Hello sdjpk5 see the sources I provided in my debates. Everything I said was clearly sourced and defined exactly where I got the information from. And as I've mentioned in my closing arguments I really don't think CapAhab even really read my debates lol. I didn't use the Mormons Definition for anything. I used historical evidence, quotes from leading theologist and historians, and definitions from the one dictionary universally used around the globe, Merriam Webster dictionary.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
It's the Mormon's definition of the trinity, I think. See my other comments...
Posted by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
I don't know where Con got his definition of "trinity", but it's not the historical one, nor is it the common one used today.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
I think my opponent is a Mormon. Thus, he believes in a godhead, they are three gods I would say:
https://www.lds.org...

In Mormon theology the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church or Mormons) teaches that "God" usually means God the Father-Elohim, whereas "Godhead" means a council of three distinct divine beings: God the Father-Elohim, God the Son-Jehovah (or Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit.

Are Mormons polytheist then, I would say yes, but am not sure if they consider themselves as such.
Posted by TheKryken 1 year ago
TheKryken
I would like to point out to Con that the Trinity does not say that the Father/Son/Holy Spirit are the same person -- that is Modalism. The Trinity says that they are three distinct persons within the same being. 'Trinity' is a term used to describe the three persons within the Godhead. Modalism is the heretical teaching that developed in the early centuries of Christianity that teaches that the Son/Father are the exact same person, and that the Father literally died on the cross.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Hi Moroni23. I wanted to have a debate with those who don't believe in the Trinity. If Jesus is not god, then worshipping Jesus is idolatry.

The Hebrew Bible is the old Testament. I could have include the new testament anyway thought in this particular debate, I would not have matter. What shall we do then?
Posted by AWSM0055 1 year ago
AWSM0055
It's spelled "God". "-" is not a letter.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Hi, I am not a Christian. I debated in another debate against the Trinity. But for those who don't believe in the trinity (oneness) like the JW, they are actually committing idolatry to worship Jesus if he is not G-d.
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