The Instigator
Vexorator
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Mojique
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

If Pinocchio says, "My nose will grow now," then it will grow.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Mojique
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/5/2014 Category: Funny
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,410 times Debate No: 58604
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

Vexorator

Pro

This is my first debate on this website, so I decided to start with a troll debate until I gain enough experience to get into some of the bigger stuff (I also need three debates if I want to be able to vote, sigh). Round 1 will be for acceptance only.

Rules:
1 - Pinocchio is a fictional character and the main protagonist of the children's novel The Adventures of Pinocchio (1883)
2 - When Pinocchio tells a lie, his nose grows.

My position (pro) is that when Pinocchio says his nose will grow, it grows. Your position (con) is that when Pinocchio says his nose will grow, it doesn't.
Mojique

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
Vexorator

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate, con. This question is very paradoxical, which is why it should be a fun one to answer.

The paradoxical question of Pinocchio saying, "My nose will grow now" is viewed as neither a lie nor the truth, because if his nose did grow, it would have meant he told the truth, and if his nose didn't grow, it would have meant that he told a lie, which breaks the rule "When Pinocchio tells a lie, his nose grows."

Pinocchio says that his nose will grow, but it won't because he cannot make his nose grow by saying that it will. He can only make it grow by lying. After his nose does not grow, it will then grow because his statement was indeed false in saying that it would. This is very tricky to understand, so I will explain it again in simpler terms; he says his nose will grow, but it doesn't because he cannot summon his own nose to grow in any way other than lying. After some fictional time has passed, the fictional elements of his world will see that he lied in saying his nose will grow, so it grows because it didn't grow, not because he said it would.

I even confuse myself in this debate, lol.
Mojique

Con

My opponent's argument functions on the premise that there is a time gap between Pinocchio's statement and the decision on its truthfulness, of which there is no indication. take away the time gap and the paradox returns. In logical terms the paradox reduces to trying to find the sum (or final number) of the infinite series Σ n=1 to \infty of -1^n. This is a divergent series, and, even if one uses controvercial methods like Ramanujan summation, it still only converges to 1/2, not giving us an answer. Finding the final number is jut as impossible because infinity is neither even nor odd.

To understand this paradox we must interpret it differently. Firstly we must look to the language. because the statement is not made in the present tense (my nose is growing, or my nose grows now.) Therefore, for his nose to grow, it must be true that his nose will never grow in the future. This gives us two possibilities.
firstly: Pinnochio knows an instance in the future at which point his nose will grow. In this case he is not telling a lie and his nose doesn't grow because of the statement "my nose will grow"
secondly: pinnochio doesn't know a time at which his nose will grow. This in turn gives us two possibilities.
a.) a lie counts as any false statement irregardless of ones konwledge of whether it is false. In this case, probablistically his nose doesn't grow given that i think it easy enough to suppose that there is a high likelyhood that he will lie at least once in the future.
b.) he must know his satement to be false for it to be a lie. if this is the case then his nose does not grow becasue he doesn't know whether or not his nose will grow in the future.

point b. of the second part of the argument also gives us another way of looking at it. I think that it is fairly reasonable that a lie must be conscious, in which case (assuming pinochio knows the paradoxical nature of his statement but doesn't know the outcome of the paradox) he is not telling a lie.
Thank you, I await a rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 2
Vexorator

Pro

Rebuttals:

1.)
Pinocchio cannot know with absolute certainty whether or not his nose will grow in the future. It is possible that at some point in his "life" he will never tell a lie again from one point on.
a.) We can't know for sure whether or not Pinocchio himself is aware that he is telling a lie, truth, or saying something paradoxical. Yes, there is a high likelihood, but not absolute certainty, as I said before.
b.) This is a good way to look at the argument. But this contradicts point 'a,' where you say a lie is false whether or not the one lying has knowledge that they have lied.

To sum things up, your positions suggest that the circustances and situations are "probable" and "likely," which does not give a definite answer. We have to agree on the term "now," to fully understand the question.


Concluding Arguments:

1.) William F. Vallicella says that 'Now' "does not refer to the time of utterance, but to a time right after it." As you said before, this statement by Pinocchio is in the future tense. For Pinocchio to say "now" does not refer to the instance he says the word, but the time immediately following.

2.) After defining the term of "now," we see that his nose will in fact not grow the instance he says the phrase "my nose will grow now." Since his nose doesn't grow at that very instance, his statement (neither true nor false) becomes a lie because his nose didn't grow. Ultimately, his nose will grow, and one wouldn't be wrong to say that for a brief moment his nose wouldn't grow immediately following the statement. So, if you were to say that Pinocchio's statement was, "My nose will grow immediately," then no, his nose wouldn't grow. But since Pinocchio is using the term 'now,' it will grow. 'Now' is defined as "at the present time or moment,"[2] not immediately.

Sources:
[1] http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com...
[2] http://dictionary.reference.com...

I await your rebuttals and final arguments.
Mojique

Con

I apologize for my slight misunderstanding of the debate, your burden (which I assumed correct) and your title are different. I will therefore drop my arguments save the extension from point b
I would like to thank my opponent for His/Her arguments, which are good and very interesting. That being said the preponderance of evidence lies with the con side.

My rebuttal to "the mythical elements of the world will see that his nose will grow," and my main contention in this debate is that the mythical elements of the world can not decide whether or not Pinocchio lied, merely whether or not he was false. The premise of the paradox is that when Pinocchio says that his nose will grow, it is possible for him to tell a lie. A lie is defined as: an intentionally false statement [1]. Therefore Pinocchio does not lie when he says "my nose will grow now." Whether or not he is false doesn't matter because he is merely predicting an event in the future, not lying, his nose does not grow. There simply is no paradox because he has to tell a lie for his nose to grow.
The philosopher William F. Vallicella that you mention is actually evidence for my side, because he makes a similar argument to the one I just made. In fact that very argument includes the definition about now referring to a time after the utterance. The source that you quote gives direct evidence to my claim, stating "Suppose I predict that tomorrow ... my blood pressure will be 125/75, but... my blood pressure ... is 135/85. ... No one... could claim that I lied ... For although I made ... a false statement ... I had no way of knowing exactly what my blood pressure would be... Pinocchio cannot be lying."

In conclusion: Unknowingly predicting an incorrect outcome does not constitute a lie and therefore the statement doesn't cause Pinocchio's nose to grow, even though it is false. He isn't lying, he is just wrong.

Thank you,
Please vote Con

Sources
[1] Oxford American Dictionary
[2]http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com......
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Carpe_Diem 3 years ago
Carpe_Diem
If Pinocchio says, "My nose will grow now," then it will grow. Is true as for saying so you must be in a cartoon universe and as such exposed to cartoon reality as such your nose will not grow as even there Pinocchio has no such power.
Posted by Burncastle 3 years ago
Burncastle
This is actually rather simple: If pinocchio were to say "my nose will grow" and it doesn't, then he would simply be WRONG, which is not the same thing as LYING. Therefore, his nose would not grow.

You can not be considered a liar simply because you failed a prediction.
Posted by Vexorator 3 years ago
Vexorator
Forgot to put a [1] after a quote from William F. Vallicella.
Posted by ishi911 3 years ago
ishi911
Oh this debate's gonna be fun!
Posted by thenewkidd 3 years ago
thenewkidd
I dub this The Pinocchio Paradox

No real answer but sure is fun to think about.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Burncastle 3 years ago
Burncastle
VexoratorMojiqueTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con clearly outlined the difference between being wrong and lying.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 3 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
VexoratorMojiqueTied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: Con proved lie =/= wrong, and this was incorect rather than lieing. Sources to Pro, more and more specific.