The Instigator
TheIntellectualDevotional
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

If Uchiha Sasuke and a theoretical Sasuke that never left Konoha fought, the latter. would win"?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/7/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,132 times Debate No: 10377
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (4)

 

TheIntellectualDevotional

Pro

I believe that if Sasuke had stayed in Konoha than he would have received proper training from Kakashi and thus would have achieved is own Mangekou much earlier. I also believe that since he would have been training with Kakashi who has no overarching purpose for Sasuke, as Orochimaru did (to take his body) Sasuke's hatred wouldn't have developed the way that it did. The way his hatred developed was as stamina. It would be the driving force in his heart. I believe that that was a result of Orochimaru's training. In an analogy, as a car Sasuke's hatred became gasoline under Orochimaru's supervision. I believe that under Kakashi's supervision, Sasuke's hatred would have become the acid in the battery, the oil in the tank, the air in the tires just as well as the gasoline. So I believe that it wouldn't just be his driving force but his entire being. By the same token however, I also believe that his hatred would be much more under control. I believe that his cursed seal would have been removed, and that would have lowered his level of anger by severing his tie to Orochimaru. I can understand how my opponent can see this as a disadvantage to my argument as it is an undeniable fact that the cursed seal because of it "CS2," form is a very powerful thing. However, because of the different training that Sasuke would have received would compensate for that. because of his training with Sakura he could probably get some practice with some healing jutsu, from his training with Naruto he could probably pick up some minor wind jutsu, and from his training with Kakashi, he would get some relatively major water jutsu. Seeing as he would also train on his own he would probably improve his chidori quite a bit. Maybe not quite to the point that he would have gotten it to if he had gone with Orochimaru, but if he was smart enough, which I believe that Sasuke is, to combine it with the wind and water jutsu he has now learned, he would be able to create a pretty strong electric hurricane jutsu of some sort. This I believe would at the very least be able to distract and damage the other Sasuke. Although Sasuke would actually be more likely to use it as a barrier. If the Other Sasuke tried to get close to Sasuke, he would be struck by a lightning bolt and then sucked into the hurricane that my Sasuke created. However I do realize that this would most likely take a tremendous toll on Sasuke. To make sure that this would work, I believe that Sasuke would create water clones and they would attack the other Sasuke from behind and so either he would move toward the hurricane I might add as there is nowhere else he could go and so the lightning bolt would hit him and bring him into the storm. Also as an added bonus if he kills one of the water clones and it is very close to him, his chances of getting hit increase as he would be drenched by each one and become, to an extent, a human lightning rod. I also believe that this process would tire the other Sasuke out. As he would be either be dodging and or fighting water clones, dodging lighting bolts and a hurricane, all the while trying to get close to the Sasuke he is fighting. Also there is something that is hard to include as it is a variable. I have no doubt that under Kakashi's training Sasuke would have developed his own mangekyou but since I do not know what that is, it is hard to include it in my argument. I do believe that my opponent knows the capabilities of Sasuke's mangekyou and if so I am asking him to tell me. So my argument, in it's skeletal for would be as follows
1.) Wider variety of jutsu.
2.) A greater tactical advantage.
3.) Has greater stamina than the opponent.
Variable: Mangekyou
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Con

I would like to begin by thanking my opponent for this debate.

--

Now I will define some key terms:
Leafsuke: The theoretical Sasuke that never left Konoha with the Sound 4, as stated in the resolution. To ensure balance in this debate, Leafsuke will be 16, the same age as the Sasuke I am arguing for.

Soundsuke: The canonical Uchiha Sasuke that trained with Orochimaru over the "timeskip" period. My arguments in the 1st round will revolve around Sasuke from the chronological end of Chapter 355, just before his fight with Deidara; However, I reserve the right to make arguments for the "Mangekyou Sasuke" (or "Akatsuke") just before the battle at the Kage Summit as well, as my opponent's resolution never specified which Sasuke we would be debating. http://naruto.wikia.com...

"fought": I will define this theoretical battle as taking place in an open field without wind, trees, or any terrain. The weather is cloudy, but not quite rainy.
--

REBUTTAL:

1) First of all, my opponent's statement that Sasuke would "achieve his own Mangekyou much earlier"' is completely invalid, as well as being spelled poorly and lacking any evidence whatsoever. Also, he never mentioned any instance during which Leafsuke would have achieved the third Sharingan Tomoe, a crucial step towards achieving Mangekyou. Sasuke only achieved third Tomoe during his fight with Naruto, a battle that never would've occured had Sasuke not left Konoha.

2) My opponent's statement regarding Sasuke's hatred is also invalid, not to mention highly confusing. Kakashi specifically told Sasuke that hating Itachi was a waste of time, so Sasuke's hatred would do anything but become a greater asset. To the contrary, it is likely that the hatred will either remain the same or dull under constant assault from the compassion of Sasuke's friends. Orochimaru, on the other hand, deliberately stoked the fires of Soundsuke's hatred so as to increase his drive. Since Leafsuke's driving hatred is in question and the hatred of Soundsuke is anything but, it can be reasoned that Leafsuke's hatred is not superior to that of Soundsuke.

3) My opponent's claim that the "cursed seal would [be] removed" is, as with the others, invalid. The curse seal is only Orochimaru's jutsu, and only he possesses the knowledge of how to remove it. Though Kakashi was able to seal it, the seal was imperfect and relied on Sasuke's willpower. Thus, the curse seal would not be "removed" and my opponent's statement is invalid. (source: http://naruto.wikia.com...)

4) My opponent has not proven that the "healing jutsu" and "minor wind jutsu" that Leafsuke would supposedly learn cancel out the advantage of CS2. I also challenge the claim that Sasuke would learn Wind Jutsu from Naruto, as Naruto only learned wind jutsu in the course of his Rasengan training with Jiraiya, and subsequently Kakashi and Asuma. If Sasuke had stayed at Konoha, Naruto never would've left to train with Jiraiya, as Jiraiya only approached Naruto with the offer of training when Naruto was in the hospital after his battle with Sasuke (http://naruto.wikia.com...). The same can be said of Sasuke learning healing Jutsu: it could not happen, as Sakura only approached Tsunade and asked to learn from her due to her feelings of uselessness AFTER SASUKE LEFT. (http://naruto.wikia.com...) Though I cede that Sasuke may learn some water jutsu from Kakashi, I have proven that he cannot learn wind; thus, the "hurricane technique" my opponent describes is unattainable for Leafsuke and thus irrelevant. Also, my opponent makes the dangerous assumption that Soundsuke would not counter the tactics of Leafsuke with a jutsu of his own; Soundsuke could merely fly above the Water clones to evade them and land outside their formation.

Now I will refute my opponent's "skeletal" arguments:

1) Wider variety of Jutsu: I have refuted the majority of his statements regarding this aspect of the battle, and he has not proven that the remaining techniques possessed by Leafsuke outweigh those of Soundsuke.

2) My opponent never mentioned a "tactical advantage" of any sort in his R1 statement.

3) My opponent has not proven that Leafsuke can outlast Soundsuke.
--
Now I will present my own arguments.

1) Soundsuke possesses the ability to summon snakes, one which grants him a considerable advantage. Leafsuke as described by my opponent possesses no summoning techniques, and Soundsuke has displayed the ability to casually summon snakes strong enough to restrain powerful shinobi without making a single hand-seal (http://naruto.wikia.com...). Soundsuke has also displayed the ability to summon a snake large enough to shield himself from one of Deidara's bombs in a mere second. Given the speed and proficiency of Soundsuke's summons, it can be reasoned that Soundsuke could outnumber and overwhelm Leafsuke with summoned snakes, especially given that Leafsuke lacks Soundsuke's aerial capabilities.

2) Soundsuke can exploit his aerial advantage to great effect. Due to the wings present in CS2, Soundsuke is capable of flight. Since the battle takes place in a grassy field, Soundsuke could bombard the field with Housenka flames (http://naruto.wikia.com...) so as to set the field aflame, restricting Leafsuke's movement. From there, Soundsuke could use Gokakyu (http://naruto.wikia.com...) to defeat Leafsuke; alternatively, Soundsuke could use Goryuka (http://naruto.wikia.com...) to create the conditions necessary for use of Kirin (http://naruto.wikia.com...). These are only 2 examples of potential ways Soundsuke could use fire to restrict Leafsuke's movement.

3) Soundsuke outclasses Leafsuke in close combat, demonstrated by four key advantages:

A) In the second Shippuden movie, Soundsuke demonstrated a capacity to manipulate chakra points and restrict chakra flow (http://naruto.wikia.com...). In close combat, Soundsuke could use this knowledge to restrict Leafsuke's chakra, effectively crippling his combat capacity.

B) Chidori Nagashi, a short-to-mid range technique, is perfectly suited for close combat. The technique paralyzes on contact, rendering close combat difficult for a foe. If cut by a Chidori Nagashi-infused blade (which I will elaborate upon later), one becomes completely numb in the afflicted region. Soundsuke could use Chidori Nagashi to stun Leafsuke long enough to restrict his chakra flow. (http://naruto.wikia.com...)
The above video shows Sasuke rendering two able-bodied foes unable to move through one pulse of Chidori Nagashi.

C) The Kusanagi Blade, Soundsuke's personal weapon, is a lethal weapon in combination with Chidori Nagashi, as Chidori channeled through the sword allows it to cut through most substances. This is evidenced by how easily it slashes through Yamato's kunai here: http://www.onemanga.com... In close combat, the Chidori-imbued Kusanagi could slice straight through any weapon used by Leafsuke and do crippling damage, especially in combination with Shunshin.

D) Shunshin no Jutsu is a technique that grants extreme speed to the user. Sasuke mastered the technique during his training with Orochimaru. (http://naruto.wikia.com...) Even if Leafsuke could use Shunshin, Soundsuke's aforementioned close-combat advantages make Shunshin deadlier in his hands then in Leafsuke's.

SUMMARY:

1) Soundsuke can use summoned snakes to overwhelm Leafsuke.
2) Soundsuke can use flight and fire jutsu to defeat Leafsuke.
3) Soundsuke outclasses Leafsuke in close combat.

--

I will end by thanking my opponent for this debate and the viewers for their time.
Debate Round No. 1
TheIntellectualDevotional

Pro

I would first like to thank my opponent for taking part in this debate.

Also I must question my opponent's choice of terrain, for it seems completely suited for my opponent, his words exactly are "an open field without wind, trees, or any terrain. The weather is cloudy, but not quite rainy," this is clearly suited for the "Soundsuke,". For example the ground is suited for fire jutsu from the air and the weather for Kirin. So if I may make a compromise with my opponent, it can be an open field, but it must have a 3 x 4 m. pond in the middle that is also 20 ft. deep and three red-wood trees that form a triangle around the pond. I am however, fine with the current weather.
--

Rebuttal:

1.) First I would like to apologize for the spelling error. Now one thing that my opponent said that is not true is that he never would have received the third Tomoe. I never said that he never would have fought Naruto in the Valley of the End, I simply think that Naruto would have won and thus, Sasuke would have stayed. This means that he would have received the Third Tomoe and so it would be possible for him to get Mangekyou at an earlier age. Also the reason that I believe that he would be mostly due to Kakashi's training. Kakshi got the Sharingan at a very young age but it was only Two Tomoe. With the intense training and missions that he went through and did, he was able to receive the Third Tomoe and then Mangekyou.

2.) This I can hardly argue with as the analogy was, I agree fairly confusing. Allow me to explain. As said by my opponent, Orochimaru stoked Sasuke's hatred making it his driving force, this cannot be argued with. However, what I was trying to say was that instead of it being at the front of his mind, it would be suppressed and thus heightened. I believe that it would be in the back of his mind being a secondary objective but always being worked towards. I also believe that since his hatred is being bottled up, it would eventually boil over and overcome him. This would most likely be shown through a massive spike in adrenaline and chakra.

3.) This is true and I sincerely can't say anything other than that Kakshi would seal it again.

4.) I do back down from Sasuke learning wind from Naruto. However, even though Sasuke stayed I don't think that he would suddenly be all nice to Sakura and probably make her feel even worse so I believe that she would learn healing jutsu and then to show Sasuke that she is not useless teach him the healing. Also there is an origin for Kakshi's nick name fukuhon-neka ninja or in copy-cat ninja. He used his Sharingan to a great extent. So I do believe that Sasuke would have learned not only water but also more lightning, fire, earth, and wind. This would also be very easy for Sasuke to learn, for he would just have to see them once and then could copy them with the Sharingan. This would re-open the possibility of the Hurricane jutsu not to mention, because of the weather the hurricane would be easier to create. Also how high can Soundsuke fligh? Also the water clones, if used properly, could come up through the ground and grab Sounsuke's feet as Naruto's shadow clones did,(see video above) and if he killed them they would splatter all over Soundsuke increasing his chances of getting hit by a lighting bolt and getting dragged in to the hurricane. Also if Sounduke was wet when he activated Chidori Nagashi, he would effectively electrocute himself.

Now for the Skeletal Arguments.

1) I have reclaimed this argument.

2) We have equal tactical advantage.

3) With the healing jutsu he can.

Now I will refute my opponent's arguments.

1) I believe that Sasuke would have acquired his own summons over the course of the four-year "time-skip." I believe that they would be feline, because, correct me if I am wrong, but don't the the Uchihas have some sort of history with cats or something of the sort? Anyway it would probably resemble the structure of Kakashi's summons. The same animal but different sizes and shapes.

2) Since I have proposed a change in the terrain, I will argue this point with my revised terrain. I believe that with his water jutsu with the pond, and the flame-retardnt red woods, I believe that Leafsuke could easily evade the fire. In an alternative event, the hurricane envelopes him and he is rendered useless or too damaged/drained to fight.

3) Close combat would not be needed as Leafsuke's jutsu would be able to keep Soundsuke at a distance.

Since Leafsuke would be able to keep Soundsuke at a distance argument A, B, and C are null and void

D) This however is different. Shunshin is a hard jutsu to battle. However although it is fast, if the hurrican is started then, if Soundsuke tried to run by the hurricane, he would be struck by lightning as, even shunshin isn't faster than light.

Summary:

1) With the hurricane, there would be no way for Soundsuke to attack Leafsuke.
2) Sasuke could evade the fire through water jutsu.
3) The snake summons wouldn't matter if they can't get to Leafsuke.

--

I will end by thanking my opponent for giving me a true challenge.
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Con

I would like to begin by thanking my opponent for the debate.

Though I appreciate my opponent's statement regarding the terrain, it is the responsibility of the instigator/first speaker to define certain key elements of the battle, as well as terms. By defining none, he has relegated this responsibility to me. If my opponent wished to define the battlefield, he should have done so in his R1 statement. My arguments will be constructed ignoring my opponent's definition of the terrain.

Counter-rebuttal:

1) First of all, my opponent's statement here is contradictory to the resolution. The resolution states that "Leafsuke" specifically "never left Konoha". By this logic, he did not leave with the Sound 4, and thus did not battle Naruto at the Valley of the End. Also, Kakashi's Sharingan was obtained through Rin transplanting Uchiha Obito's eye into Kakashi's eye socket at the same age as Sasuke received his Sharingan; he did not receive Sharingan at a "very young age". Lastly, if my opponent wished to argue for a Sasuke that DID leave Konoha but was retrieved by Naruto, then he should have stated so in either his resolution or R1 statement.

2) Leafsuke's hatred may be suppressed, but this means it lacks control. Soundsuke's hatred is his driving force, but he controls it. This is essentially summed up by Itachi's statement "You're not going to scream and run at me again?" (http://www.onemanga.com...). Itachi's meaning here is that Sasuke's hatred is more focused and less uncontrollable, allowing Sasuke to maintain a cool demeanor even in the presence of the man he hates. If Leafsuke's hatred were to be repressed, like my opponent suggests, then when it "boils over and overcomes him", it will lead to a loss of composure and control. This will place Leafsuke at a disadvantage, since he will not be able to plan his actions as well as he could've before his hatred boiled over.

3) As I stated before, the seal is entirely dependent on the will of the recipient not to use the Curse Mark. Thus, Kakashi sealing the Mark again would have no effect.

4) I never suggested that Sasuke would "be all nice to Sakura"; I only stated that the only reason Sakura approached Tsunade was due to feelings of uselessness that were brought to the fore during the Sasuke Retrieval Arc, a story that would not have occurred in Leafsuke's world according to the resolution. Thus, my opponent's own healing jutsu argument is canceled out by the resolution.
Next, I will refute the "Hurricane Jutsu". According to my opponent's statement, Sasuke could learn a variety of Jutsu by copying them with the Sharingan; while I do not contest this claim, I do contest the "Hurricane Jutsu", as no Tri-element Water/Wind/Lightning Jutsu exists in the world of Naruto. By my opponent's logic, Sasuke's jutsu repertoire would be boosted almost solely by Sharingan-copied jutsu; If Sasuke were to spend as much time copying and practicing Jutsu as my opponent suggests, then there would be no time to create such a technique, as the Jutsu PRO suggests falls outside of Sasuke's elemental affinity twice over and does not yet exist; as such, Leafsuke does not have the benefit of Sharingan mimicry, nor elemental affinity.
Lastly, as to the Water Clones: Mizu Bunshin cannot travel very far from their creator (http://naruto.wikia.com...); Soundsuke could merely evade the Bunshin and dispel them with Chidori Senbon (http://naruto.wikia.com...), leading to nothing but a wasteful expenditure of chakra by Leafsuke.

Now to the Skeletal Arguments:

1) My opponent has not stated how this "wider variety of jutsu" grants Leafsuke an advantage, as he has not specified how the techniques could defeat Soundsuke. Thus, the argument, lacking evidence, is still invalid.

2) The battlefield as I have defined it grants no tactical advantage to Leafsuke; if anything, Soundsuke possesses the advantage.

3) I have refuted my opponent's claim that Leafsuke possesses the ability to use Healing Jutsu.

Defending my arguments:

1) First of all, the "time-skip" was roughly two years long, not "four years" as my opponent stated in his rebuttal. Secondly, the only significant cats encountered throughout the series were those belonging to Nekobaa (http://naruto.wikia.com...), the owner of a supplies shop formerly used by the Uchiha Clan. Furthermore, those cats have not displayed any combat capability or affiliation with the Uchiha Clan (or Konohagakure, for that matter). Thus, they could not be Leafsuke's summons.

2) There is too little moisture in the battlefield for Leafsuke to use any significant water techniques.

3) My opponent has provided no ways for Leafsuke to evade the snakes other than the Hurricane technique and the Cat summons, both of which I have refuted.

4) The close-combat argument still stands, as I have refuted the Hurricane Jutsu.

I will now proceed to my own argument.

4) Leafsuke does not possess enough overall power to defeat Soundsuke. The resolution specifies that Leafsuke "never left Konoha"; if this were to be true, then Leafsuke never battled Haku, and as such never gained control over his Sharingan. As such, it is likely that Leafsuke would not have been an appealing target to Orochimaru, and would not have received the Curse Mark. Without the Sharingan or Curse Mark, Leafsuke cannot battle Soundsuke on even ground. Furthermore, this argument refutes my opponent's "variety of jutsu" argument, as Leafsuke cannot mimic jutsu without the Sharingan.

I will end by summarizing my arguments thus far:

1) Soundsuke can use summoned snakes to overwhelm Leafsuke.
2) Soundsuke can use flight and fire jutsu to defeat Leafsuke.
3) Soundsuke outclasses Leafsuke in close combat.
4) Without the Curse Mark or Sharingan, Leafsuke does not possess enough power to defeat Soundsuke.

Since I have defended all of my arguments from refutation and refuted my opponent's arguments multiple times over, I heavily urge viewers to begin considering a CON vote.

I would like to thank TheIntellectualDevotional for the debate and the viewers for their time.
Debate Round No. 2
TheIntellectualDevotional

Pro

I would like to begin by thanking my opponent for the debate.

Though I do see my opponent's point regarding the the terrain, I was not aware that I was supposed to define the terrain. Thus I feel my opponent has used an unfair advantage. However, since there really is no one other than myself at fault, I will back down with one exception. I must be allowed to use the water underground.

Counter-rebuttal:

1.) I believe that what my opponent has said is valid. I did not make Leafsuke situation perfectly clear in my R1 statement. I believe that he would have left with the Sound 4 and battled Naruto in the Valley of the End. I believe that Naruto would have won and Sasuke would have stayed in Konoha. Now about the Sharingan. Kakshi received the Sharingan at a relatively young age probably around Sasuke's age pre-shippuden. Now this may not be that young for an Uchiha however for someone who has never used the Sharingan before, it would be a completely new experience. So I believe to use it so well, not to mention achieving Mangekyou how he undeniably did, would take a lot a lot of practice and experience. The kind of practice and experience that Leafsuke would get under Kakashi.

2.) His hatred would be suppressed, that does not mean it lacks control. Yes Orochimaru stoked his hatred but Kakashi would have thought him how to not let his hatred get the better of him. It would occasionally boil over however if it did during this fight it would only be if he was about to die and thus he would already be done it would just give him one final burst. Enough to, if Soundsuke was in bad shape kill him, otherwise just enough to hit him hard one more time.

3.) This is a strange predicament. There is no way to argue my opponent's statement as it is fact, however it is not a complete disadvantage. This would mean that Leafsuke could go to CS2 however, if this were the case he would be at the end of his rope and it would probably be a result of the burst of hatred if he were almost dead.

4.) To answer my opponent's rebuttal I will ask a simple question. What would Sakura do instead? I believe that Kakshi would be mostly occupied with Leafsuke and so she would most likely look for other training. I also believe that her thoughts of uselessness were around long before the Sasuke Retrieval Arc and were only brought to light then. So my argument stands that she would feel useless, go try to train with others i.e. Tsunade, Shizune and so would then show Leafsuke healing.
I believe that the Hurricane jutsu would be obtainable because he would not be creating the conditions necessary for the jutsu. The cloudy weather and the undeniable underground water would provide two of the elements needed. All he would need to do is combine them and then add the lightning when necessary.

Now to the Skeletal Arguments:

1.) If Leafsuke was to try to do the Hurricane jutsu, he would have to use the ground water. To do this he would have to tear it out of the ground making many holes in the earth. If the Hurricane jutsu was unsuccessful or if he lost control etc., he could go into one of these holes. There he could concentrate his chakra and allow him to use some of the other jutsu he would have in his repertoire.

2.) This is true other than the ground water and the weather which is an equal advantage.

3.) I have reclaimed this.

I will shatter the defenses of my opponent's arguments:

1.) I apologize for my mistake about the length of the Time-Skip. However I still believe even over the course of two years that Leafsuke would have gained a summon. However since my argument is mostly my speculation on my part, that point is hard for me to back up.

2.) Two words. Ground Water.

3.) I believe that because of Leafsuke's wide variety of jutsu, he could do any number of them. Earth spikes, lightning bolts, strong gusts of wind, not mention, kunai, shuriken, and exploding tags.

4.) At the very least Leafsuke could keep him away with earth, wind, or water jutsu.

I will now refute my opponent's arguments:

1.) What was meant by the term "didn't leave Konoha," was that he never went to Orochimaru. You have not provided a reason for Leafsuke not to have gone of the mission to the Water Village. You would also be refuting some of you own arguments by saying that. What Leafsuke would be, as it was never specified, is a Sasuke that never went to Orochimaru after the battle with Naruto in the Valley of the End. Not one that has never left Konoha in his lifetime. Besides that would be impossible because the Uchiha village wasn't in Konoha if what you were suggesting were the case, Leafsuke wouldn't exist and that is not the case.

I would like to summarize what has happened in my side of this round:

1.) The ground water could provide moisture.
2.) The Mangekyou would be possible.
3.) Sasuke would be in control of his hate but with an occasional outburst.
4.) The healing jutsu would be possible.
5.) Leafusuke could keep Soundsuke away with earth, wind, and water.
6.) Leafsuke could kill the snakes with earth, wind, water, and lightning.

I would like to thank GeorgeCarlinWorshipper for his rebuttals and the viewers for their time.
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Con

I will begin by thanking my opponent for the debate.

I concede that the terrain as I have described it does possess a normal amount of moisture in the soil; however, it is too small a quantity for Leafsuke to use it for anything significant.

--

Now to counter my opponent's rebuttal:

1) Leafsuke as defined by my opponent negates the resolution, which specifically states that Leafsuke "never left Konoha". My opponent is contradicting his own resolution.
Also, I'm sure the Sharingan is a "completely new experience" for an Uchiha who hasn't used it before; furthermore, one cannot compare Kakashi's 13 years of experience with the Sharingan to a 2.5 year training period.
However, this is all irrelevant- As stated in my R2, Leafsuke as defined by my opponent does not possess Sharingan, as he never participated in the Land of Waves arc's battle with Zabuza and Haku, as this battle took place outside Konoha. The resolution specifies that Leafsuke "never left Konoha".

2) Since I have refuted all of Leafsuke's abilities and techniques short of basic ninja skills, my opponent has yet to provide evidence to support his statement that Soundsuke "[would be] in bad shape" at the time of Leafsuke's outburst.

3) Sasuke only received CS2 by leaving Konoha with the Sound 4. According to the resolution, this never happened to Leafsuke.

4) I concede that Sakura did possess feelings of uselessness before the Sasuke Retrieval Arc; however, the fact that she was unable to help in any way during the S.R.A. brought those feelings to the fore, as my opponent stated. However, his own resolution negates this argument, as the S.R.A. only took place after Sasuke left Konoha with the Sound 4; according to the resolution, this never happened.
Regarding the Hurricane Technique: Manipulating Water and Wind as you describe would still require incredible amounts of both Nature and Shape Transformation (http://naruto.wikia.com...; http://naruto.wikia.com...) performed upon elements outside Sasuke's affinity. Not even Naruto, who DOES possess a Wind affinity, is capable of the kind of Wind shape manipulation my opponent describes here. Even supposing Leafsuke COULD use the technique, it would take prodigious amounts of chakra to use and could not feasibly be maintained as long as my opponent suggests. The jutsu is unattainable for Leafsuke as described by the resolution and defined by me in R1.

--

Regarding the skeletal arguments:

1) Barring the facts that A) I have refuted the Hurricane Jutsu on three separate occasions, B) my opponent conceded in his R2 that he "back[s] down from Sasuke learning wind", and C) there is too little moisture in the battlefield as I have defined it for the "Hurricane Jutsu" to work, if Leafsuke attempted to hide underground and "concentrate his chakra", Soundsuke could merely throw several kunai with exploding tags attached into the pit. The explosions would either kill Leafsuke, who has nowhere to escape to, or cause the soil around to collapse in on him, burying him.

2) There is too little moisture in the ground for Leafsuke to use any significant Water jutsu. The weather and grass are both advantages for me, whereas the "ground water" is a lone, meager advantage for you. Thus, Soundsuke possesses a tactical advantage.

3) Stating that you have "reclaimed" an argument is hardly a defense of it; to the contrary, it borders on a concession since you have provided no new evidence or made a statement to counter my rebuttal.

Now to defend my supposedly "shattered" arguments:

1) My opponent has, essentially, conceded this argument, as he has stated himself that it is "hard for [him] to back up". Since there is no new evidence to support this argument, it is invalidated.

2) There is too little water in the ground to mount a substantial defense against any of Sasuke's fire techniques, especially given the flammable terrain.

3) Since Leafsuke as defined by the resolution possesses no controllable Sharingan, and there is no existing "Earth Spike" jutsu, the first supposed Jutsu is invalid. Secondly, quickly creating enough lightning bolts to ward off all the summoned snakes would leave Leafsuke severly drained, making him an easy target for the faster Soundsuke. Lastly, no "gust of wind" or exploding tags could ward off a combined assault from a swarm of snakes, Soundsuke, and Manda (http://naruto.wikia.com...).

4) My opponent has conceded that Leafsuke could not learn wind jutsu; there is too little moisture in the area to use water jutsu; without the Sharingan, Leafsuke cannot copy Earth jutsu from Kakashi.

Now to defend my arguments:

1) Contrary to my opponent's claim, I have provided a reason for Sasuke to not have gone to the Land of Waves (I will disregard the mistake about the "Water Village"): The resolution itself. The resolution states that Leafsuke never left Konoha; since the Land of Waves lies outside of Konoha village, the Sasuke defined by the resolution never fought in the Land of Waves, and thus never obtained Sharingan. If my opponent meant to argue for a Sasuke that didn't leave Konoha to defect to Orochimaru, he should have specified so in his R1 statement or the resolution, not wait until R3 to specify this. Lastly, contrary to my opponent's statement, Leafsuke WAS defined; in my R1, Leafsuke was defined as "never leaving Konoha with the Sound 4, AS STATED IN THE RESOLUTION". This contradicts my opponent's definition of a "Sasuke that never went to Orochimaru after the battle with Naruto in the Valley of the End". Since the Valley of the End is outside of Konoha, the theoretical Sasuke mentioned in the resolution never fought there. My opponent's rebuttal contradicts his own resolution. Lastly, the Uchiha Village DOES lie within Konoha, as stated here: http://naruto.wikia.com.... Upon viewing this link, one will find that the Uchiha were "relocated to a corner of the village" (the use of "relocated" and "corner of" implies that they already lived in Konoha). Thus, my opponent's entire rebuttal is invalid, as he A) contradicted the resolution, B) ignored the ample reason provided by me in R2 that Leafsuke did NOT go to the Land of Waves, C) cited none of my supposedly "self-refuted" arguments, D) disregarded his own resolution and my definition of Leafsuke, and E) stated incorrectly that the Uchiha Clan's "village" lies outside of Konoha.

Now to his summary:

1) There is too little moisture in the ground to be of substantial aid.
2) Leafsuke as specified by the resolution neither learned to control his Sharingan nor attained 3rd Tomoe at the Valley of the End.
3) This outburst would do nothing but put Leafsuke at a disadvantage due to loss of composure.
4) Sakura never would've learned Healing Jutsu from Tsunade if the Sasuke Retrieval Arc had not occured.
5) EARTH: Leafsuke cannot copy Earth Jutsu from Kakashi without the Sharingan, which Leafsuke does not possess. WIND: In his R2, my opponent "backed down from Sasuke learning Wind". WATER: There is too little moisture in the ground for any substantial use of Water Jutsu to occur.
6) See above for Wind and Water. Using Lightning to ward off the snake swarm, Soundsuke, and Manda would be prohibitively costly in terms of chakra, as well as being infeasible.

Now to summarize why my opponent has no grounds to refute my arguments:

1) Leafsuke as defined by the resolution possesses no capability to ward off the snakes and Soundsuke.

2) Leafsuke's ranged capabilities are too meager to defend against an aerial assault.

3) Without Sharingan, Leafsuke's speed is completely outclassed by Soundsuke's.

4) The resolution itself confirms the evidence for ARG4.

I would like to thank IntellectualDevotional for the debate and the viewers for their time. When the time comes, please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
TheIntellectualDevotional

Pro

TheIntellectualDevotional forfeited this round.
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Con

Since my opponent has forfeited this round and thus provided no arguments for me to refute or rebuttals to challenge, I will be using this round to summarize the strengths of my arguments and flaws of his, as well as elaborate on the faults of his statements.

My arguments:
1) Soundsuke can use summoned snakes to outnumber and overwhelm Leafsuke, who cannot counter the combination of Soundsuke, Manda, and a horde of summoned snakes. One possible strategy would be for Soundsuke to prepare Kirin while Manda uses his poison gas breath. Since Leafsuke as defined by the resolution has no ability to combat both Soundsuke and Manda (and my opponent has provided no evidence to the contrary), PRO has no grounds to contest this argument unless he introduces new evidence.

2) Soundsuke can use flight and fire jutsu to defeat Leafsuke. Similarly to ARG1, Soundsuke could summon Manda and have him distract Leafsuke; however, rather than using the distraction to prepare Kirin, Soundsuke could instead use Manda as a perch from which to glide and bombard. Since I have successfully proven that, without Sharingan, there is no way for Leafsuke to obtain any capability to substantially threaten an aerial Soundsuke while defending against an air-to-ground assault, my opponent has no grounds to contest this argument.

3) Soundsuke outclasses Leafsuke in close combat. I have succesfully proven that Soundsuke is faster than Leafsuke and possesses a number of methods to inflict crippling damage at close range; given that I have defended these statements from refutation and my opponent has provided no evidence of any alternative close-range tactics Leafsuke may utilize, my opponent has no grounds to contest this argument.

4) Without the Curse Mark or Sharingan, Leafsuke does not possess enough power to defeat Soundsuke. My opponent's rebuttal has shown that the only way to contest this argument is by negating the resolution; since I have provided both reasoning and evidence to support this argument, he has no grounds to contest it barring the introduction of new evidence.

Now I will summarize my opponent's arguments and their flaws. Since my opponent has provided no discernable arguments other than the "skeletal" arguments, I will only be summarizing those herein.

1) "Wider variety of jutsu". Due to the fact that, according to the resolution, Leafsuke never obtained control over his Sharingan, this argument is invalid, as my opponent's only evidence for this argument has been the concept of Leafsuke copying jutsu from Kakashi.

2) "Greater Tactical Advantage". Since my opponent lost rights to contest my definition of the terrain when he relegated the responsibility of definition to me, this argument is invalid, as there is no valid evidence to support this "tactical advantage".

3) "Greater stamina than the opponent". Due to my refutation of Leafsuke's supposed healing jutsu capabilities and Soundsuke's ability to use the Oral Rebirth Jutsu (http://naruto.wikia.com...), it can only be reasoned that Soundsuke possesses the ability to outlast Leafsuke, not the other way around. Thus, this argument is invalid.

Now I will highlight the faults of some of my opponent's key statements.

1) The "ground water" is irrelevant, as Leafsuke as the resolution defines him is unable to mimic Jutsu, as he does not possess Sharingan.

2) The Hurricane Jutsu is impossible for Leafsuke to maintain for long enough to be useful, as it falls outside of his elemental affinity twice over and requires a nigh-inhuman level of shape and nature manipulation. Even supposing that Leafsuke were to be capable of inventing such a jutsu, it would be impractical for use in one-on-one combat and too small-scale to have a significant effect on Manda; thus, the Hurricane Jutsu is impractical and virtually useless.

I will end by highlighting the fact that, throughout his 3 statements, my opponent has never provided a single evidence link to back up his statements, and has actually professed that evidence for one of his statements is unobtainable, thus invalidating the statement due to lack of evidence.

I would like to thank my opponent for the debate and the viewers for their time. When the voting period arrives, please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 4
TheIntellectualDevotional

Pro

I will begin by thanking my opponent for this debate.

I would also like to show how my argument will be laid out. First I will refute my opponent's arguments from R3 then I will refute his arguments from R4.

My opponent has previously stated that the weather is cloudy. This would add to the amount of moisture in the atmosphere. I might also point out that since my opponent never specified the amount of moisture in the ground or air, it is up to me to decide.

--

Now to counter my opponent's rebuttal.

1.) What my opponent is suggesting here is that because Leafsuke has never left the village of Konoha in his life. This is impossible, for it would mean that he was born and raised in Konoha, which he was not. He was born and raised in the Uchiha village until everyone other than him was killed by his older brother, Itachi. So what my opponent is saying is that Leafsuke wouldn't exist, as he would not have ever been in the Uchiha village to be born and raised. This means that he is not an Uchiha. Of course that wouldn't matter since how my opponent is describing him, he would not exist.
Furthermore, if my opponent sees reason and understands that what he is saying is impossible (for there is no fight if Leafsuke does not exist) I would also like to point out to him that he would be on Team 7 and so of course would have go to the Land of Waves.

2.) If what my opponent is suggesting is true, Leafsuke would not have any hate, for he would not exist. Also for the same reason it would be impossible for Leafsuke and Soundsuke to fight.

3.) Leafsuke, how my opponent described him, would not exist.

4.) All arguments, on both sides, are null and void because of my opponent's rendering of Leafsuke. However, this does not mean that I am forfeiting the anything. This simply means that Soundsuke cannot win, as he is fighting nothing.

There is not much more to say. How my opponent has described Leafsuke, there is no way for either of us to win this debate. It really does not matter how good one is at this or the other is at that, because if one doesn't exist, than the other cannot defeat that which does not exist. You cannot kill that which never lived. My opponent refuted his own arguments. It does not matter if Soundsuke can defeat Leafsuke, if Leafsuke never was.

I would like to end by thanking my opponent for this debate, especially for undermining himself and the readers for their time. The voting period is almost here and I will ask you to vote pro, as con cannot win.
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper

Con

I will being by thanking IntellectualDevotional for what has been an engaging debate.

As to the moisture in the air, I concede that the weather leads to an increase in moisture; however, I have already proven that Leafsuke lacks the skill to manipulate Water's shape on the scale he is describing.

Rebuttal Defense:

1) First of all, neither I nor the resolution specified that Leafsuke was never OUTSIDE of Konoha, only that he never left. Even supposing that Sasuke was born outside of Konoha village, he still lived in the village; thus, he entered the village at one point in time.
There is no "Uchiha Clan Village". My opponent has provided no evidence to support his frankly ridiculous claim that Konoha's own police force resides OUTSIDE the village it polices. Furthermore, I have already provided evidence proving that the Uchiha Clan does, in fact, live within Konoha. Since my opponent has failed to meet the burden of proof, his claim is invalid.
In response to the latter portion of my opponent's first rebuttal statement: Leafsuke does not exist by definition, as the resolution specifies that he is a "theoretical" Sasuke. I will assume that my opponent's meaning is that Leafsuke would not have been born as I have defined him, which is untrue, as I have already proven that the Uchiha Clan does reside within Konoha. Furthermore, my opponent has provided no evidence to the contrary. Lastly, even if Leafsuke were to be placed on Team 7, he would not have gone to the Land of Waves, as the resolution specifies that Leafsuke did NOT leave Konoha.

2) I have already responded to my opponent's "Leafsuke would not exist" claim.

3) See above.

4) Again, see above. Lastly, my opponent is, essentially, conceding the debate by these statements. The resolution specifies that Leafsuke would win. I do not need to prove that Soundsuke would be victorious, only that he would not be defeated by Leafsuke. If Leafsuke did not exist, then Soundsuke would not be defeated by him, thus negating my opponent's own resolution.

In conclusion, my opponent's entire R5 statement has done nothing but counter his own resolution, as if Leafsuke did not exist, then he could not "win" against Soundsuke as the resolution specifies. Furthermore, my opponent's claim that Sasuke was born outside of Konoha is invalid, as my opponent has provided no evidence to support such a claim. Since my opponent has failed to meet the burden of proof for this statement, it is invalid. Seeing as that statement is the sole basis for my opponent's entire R5, my opponent's R5 statements are invalid.

I will now summarize the debate.

PRO's arguments:
1) "Wider variety of jutsu"
2) "Greater Tactical Advantage"
3) "Greater stamina than the opponent"

CON's arguments:
1) Soundsuke can overwhelm Leafsuke with summoned snakes.
2) Soundsuke can use flight and fire jutsu to defeat Leafsuke.
3) Soundsuke outclasses Leafsuke in close combat.
4) Without the Cursed Seal or Sharingan, Leafsuke does not possess enough power to defeat Leafsuke.

My opponent has only made three clear arguments, all of which I have successfully refuted in R4. Since my opponent's "counter-rebuttal" was rendered invalid when he failed to meet the burden of proof for his statements, his arguments can all be considered invalid, as he has not successfully defended them from refutation. On the other hand, nowhere in his R5 did he even attempt to refute my arguments, invalidate their evidence, or counter my defense of them. Since my opponent has not attempted to counter my R3 defense of my arguments, they all still stand. In conclusion, all of CON's arguments still stand and none of PRO's do.

I will now weigh the debate for voters. NOTE: These are only recommendations based on evidence I will provide. I am not trying to give voters commands or promote biased voting.

Conduct: My opponent and I have both been courteous to each other and have frequently thanked each other for the debate. However, my opponent forfeited his R4 without providing an explanation or apologizing for doing so, thus displaying contempt for the debate. Thus, I recommend a CON vote for conduct.

Spelling/Grammar: My opponent has made numerous spelling and grammar mistakes. I will cite examples below:

R1. So my argument, in it's skeletal for would be as follows (improper use of comma, improper use of "it's", misspelled form)

R2. Also I must question my opponent's choice of terrain, for it seems completely suited for my opponent, his words exactly are "an open field without wind, trees, or any terrain. (no comma after "also", run-on sentence, no quotation mark after "terrain")

R3. His hatred would be suppressed, that does not mean it lacks control. Yes Orochimaru stoked his hatred but Kakashi would have thought him how to not let his hatred get the better of him. (no conjunction before "that", no comma after "yes", used "thought" instead of "taught")

R5. Leafsuke, how my opponent described him, would not exist. (improper use of commas, used "how" instead of "as")

On the other hand, I have made few, if any, spelling/grammar mistakes. Thus, I recommend a CON vote for spelling/grammar.

Convincing arguments:
My opponent's three arguments are summarized above and in R4. I have invalidated the evidence for two of them, and my opponent has failed to meet the burden of proof for the third. On the other hand, I have successfully defended all of my arguments from refutation and provided evidence for all of them. The evidence for the first three is in the form of links; the fourth argument's evidence is rooted in the resolution. Voters may view my R4 statement for elaboration upon this topic.
Since none of my opponent's arguments are valid and all of mine still stand, I heavily recommend a CON vote for "convincing arguments".

Sources:
My opponent has not provided a single evidence link to support his arguments. However, I have provided ample evidence to support my arguments, including a video demonstrating my argument's accuracy. Thus, I heavily recommend a CON vote for Sources.

I will end by thanking my opponent for the debate and the viewers for their time. I heavily urge a CON vote.
Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
I liked this debate and gave all points to Con. George, you and I should have a debate about Naruto sometime.
Posted by The_adroit_inept_one 7 years ago
The_adroit_inept_one
To con-
Really good job turning the resolution against prop.
Posted by xiaotianZ 7 years ago
xiaotianZ
wow! this is a really nice debate! very good job on both sides! i like how this debate about 'what ifs' is so good and so into detail. good job guys!
Posted by TheIntellectualDevotional 7 years ago
TheIntellectualDevotional
I apologize for not posting a video I could not find it. I am sorry
Posted by The_adroit_inept_one 7 years ago
The_adroit_inept_one
Good job to both sides, but a little bit of contstructive critisism and point analyzation. For pro, I would suggest using seperate paragraphs, etc so its easier to read it.
Here's a lil bit of analysis.
1.) Wider variety of jutsu.
I would say you made your point here, however opp made some very good points about how it would help (for example, that he might not learn advanced wind techniques (at least probably not enough to cause a hurricane, which can be over 150 mph). And it is even more unlikely that he could maintain control over it for any significant period of time (or control it at all) The opp's rebuttal about Sakura only approaching Tsunade after Sasuke left and she was rendered helpless also makes sense.
Opp
I would say good rebuttals, but saying "completely invalid, as well as being spelled poorly" speaks of bad conduct (to me).
I would say good rebuttal about the hatred, but I think you should have used a quote or a source there.
Now onto your points.
Your stating that he has aerial capabilities ("Soundsuke's aerial capabilities.") Is sort of rendered invalid by the source you use (naruto.wikia) which says "gave him hand-shaped wings on his back that gave him the ability to glide and momentarily " (http://naruto.wikia.com...)
Besides that, kudos to both sides.
Posted by GeorgeCarlinWorshipper 7 years ago
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
lol. you copy/pasted the question mark too.
I'll try to post my argument tonight.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Koopin 7 years ago
Koopin
TheIntellectualDevotionalGeorgeCarlinWorshipperTied
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Vote Placed by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
TheIntellectualDevotionalGeorgeCarlinWorshipperTied
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Vote Placed by The_adroit_inept_one 7 years ago
The_adroit_inept_one
TheIntellectualDevotionalGeorgeCarlinWorshipperTied
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Vote Placed by GeorgeCarlinWorshipper 7 years ago
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
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