The Instigator
Lukas8
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Valkrin
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

If god is omnipotent and omibenevolent and all knowing than why couldn't he make a better reality

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Valkrin
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/5/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,062 times Debate No: 64619
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
Votes (1)

 

Lukas8

Pro

So the first round is only to accept the debate. This debate can also go a bit of the topic, if needed. And the Con should say why she/he believes that god made the right decisions of our reality if he exists. Aldue I know/think he doesn't exist, lets say if he truly does.
Valkrin

Con

I accept. I wish good luck in your argument, opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
Lukas8

Pro

So lets be quick. If god truely exists, than he could make a way better or worse reality. There are some Christian apologists that say that it was ment for us to be in our "reality".

Well, I disagree. Because if god is all knowing, all loving and all powefull for the species Homo Sapiens, then why hasn't he fought about a different reality and a different way of rouling.
His mistakes are very visible, like when he flooded the world, he killed all evil and only the "good" stayed like Noah and his animals. But if we are honest. Theoretically he could find a other way.
Why because we are his "creation" and he loves us, his all powerful and all knowing, but if he truley does respects us and owns unlimited power and all possible knowledge, why couldn't he come up with an better idea?
Seriously, there are other ways how to fix a planet filled with evil. Why couldn't he just eliminate all evil, just by transforming it into good? And actually there are many,many other ideas.
According to the bible, we are stuck on this crazy suffering planet, only because of an technical mistake of an very young girl/women (I mean Eve). But seriously is this the way to punish all Homo Sapiens and all other species, only because of an interest in the "amazing forbidden apple"?
In some cases, I wonder why the snake didn't take it and brought it to Eve. But lets get back to the topic:
- if god trulley loves and respects us and has unlimited power and knowledge. Why didn't he create an interesting reality where we would live great, being punished at the same time and how hard is it to give some of the unlimited energy to a specimen? Give a few parts of an infinity to a few specimens, is that hard?
If god is all knowing than he would be able to make any possible idea to work, how? Simple he has the knowledge and the power (even unlimited). And he loves us after all.
There are amazingly many ways how God and his "staff",could create an idea and make it working. Just imagine

Watch that video: https://www.youtube.com...
Valkrin

Con

Thank you pro for your arguments. I shall now respond.

At first, God had created a perfect world, free of sin; the Garden of Eden. God had already made a perfect reality, which was Heaven. However, prior to the Garden, Lucifer had rebelled against God and God banished him, along with a third of the angels, into hell. Then we head to the garden.

Eve is then tempted by Lucifer (in the form of a serpent) to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve at the fruit, then gave some to Adam, who then ate it. And then they had felt something that they had never felt before: shame. They were afraid of God because He would find out what happened and punish them. Which he did. Then sin had entered the world.
The reason evil exists is because of humanity's actions against the God who gave so much for them. The only way for this to be forgiven is for a blameless creature (Jesus, symbolized as a sheep) to take our punishment so that we can be with God forever in heaven.

Let me answer your questions now:
"Why couldn't he just eliminate all evil, just by transforming it into good?"

This was our punishment from the Garden. Evil and sin entered the world because of Adam and Eve's actions.

"According to the bible, we are stuck on this crazy suffering planet, only because of an technical mistake of an very young girl/woman (I mean Eve). But seriously is this the way to punish all Homo Sapiens and all other species, only because of an interest in the 'amazing forbidden apple'?"

First things first, we are not "stuck" here. We were created and made to be put on this earth. Because of the conflict and current events going on right now in the world, some may believe they are "stuck", when in reality they aren't.

Secondly, it wasn't a mistake. She was tempted, then CHOSE to eat from the tree, which opened their eyes to all things bad in the world. It WAS humanity's choice. The snake merely tempted her.

Thirdly, yes, this is the way. Humanity had betrayed the trust of someone who gave humanity so much. But God already had a plan, from that day, as to how the world would be saved.

From Genesis 3:21-22 "
"The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

God skinned an innocent animal to cover Adam and Eve. This is an allusion to further events to come.
Jesus is the innocent animal, often portrayed as a lamb/sheep. Jesus was then punished for our sins when he went on the cross. Because he had paid for all of our sins, that had happened, are happening, and will be happening, we were able to go into God's kingdom once more.

"if god truly loves and respects us and has unlimited power and knowledge, why didn't he create an interesting reality where we would live great, being punished at the same time? How hard is it to give some of the unlimited energy to a specimen? Give a few parts of an infinity to a few specimens, is that hard?"

It's not hard, in fact it's easy. God could do that if he wanted. He simply chooses NOT to.
If we had power, if humanity had power, there would be people who use that power for pure evil and malice. It's been proven throughout history: give people power, they can turn mad, and use their power for evil.

It seems you've fallen into a trap. "If I don"t like something- there must be a better way. I don"t like the world God set up- He should"ve done it better." But there are tons of things in life that are whether or not we like them or not. God doesn"t have to get our approval before He does something. So if I am not a fan, maybe it is because I don"t get what God is actually doing, or maybe it is because what I prefer isn"t the same as what God does. And it ends up being His call, not mine.

Also, I think his idea of a place where we could "live great, but be punished at the same" has some flaws. Nobody wants themselves punished - just others who step out of line. So for too many people, "living great" would involve no punishment at all or very very lenient punishment. Not at all in accord with what we deserve.

You use the phrase "He loves us" as an excuse to make your idea of a utopia with no wrongdoing seem reasonable on our current Earth, however it isn't if there are people who do wrong in the world. If I could sum up my entire argument with two words, it would be this: free will.

God allows evil and suffering to happen to give us a true choice as to what we want. Such evil exists if we want to have free will. If you wanted no evil, you would want a world where we would all basically be robots, worshipping God without real emotion and love for Him. However, if he gives us free will, yes, it opens up to evil, but also opens up to GENUINE love, not artificial love. You would rather someone be friends with you because they genuinely like you, rather than find out they were being forced.

If people truly accept Him with genuine love, instead of artificial love, they will feel the full extent of his grace.
JUSTICE: Getting what we deserve. We deserve to be all sent to hell.
MERCY: Not giving someone what they deserve.
GRACE: Giving someone something they don't deserve.

We don't deserve to be in heaven with Him because of their actions. But God gives us grace. He saves us from the horrible fate that we deserve. And while it may seem horrible to us now, it's nothing in comparison to what we deserve. However, we can be saved from the pain and suffering of that through Jesus, who was an innocent man who never committed a single sin. He was the "innocent animal" who was sacrificed to pay for our debts so we could be in heaven with Him.

Thank you, and I look forward to next round's arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
Lukas8

Pro

Thank you, you also made many fair points as well.
But still I disagree. The Garden of Eden it self wasn't perfect, it was just an "utopia". Because Adam and eve, couldn't imagine to fly, there weren't any infinite or amazing phenomena's, only a simple utopia. And since Adam and eve, weren't really old and had not many experience. It was pretty unsmart for a deity like god, to forbidd them to eat the apple. Why and how? Simple, imagine that you tell a child to not touch a bottom, the child is more likely to press the bottom after all.
Next if we give a PART of the infinity to some people, then how could they disuse it ,if the god is Omnipotent? Plus eliminating evil is possible and you can have emotions as well. Jesus had no evil and he still possessed emotions.
PRO:
The God, still could make a different reality after all. And if someone posseses infinite power and knowledge. Then its not hard to make a combination of a paradise and punishment. Free will, still can exist if an emotion like evil disappears. Actually there could be emotions we cant imagine. And because we cant imagine them, we don't posses the Free will? And agree no one would like to be punished. So why are we still punished after all, if god loves us.

With infinite imagination, knowledge and power, god still could make literally infinite better realities. But I was talking if he would exist, because he probably doesn't.
We can post some comments after the debate for extras.
Valkrin

Con

"The Garden of Eden it self wasn't perfect, it was just an "utopia". Because Adam and eve, couldn't imagine to fly, there weren't any infinite or amazing phenomena's, only a simple utopia."

Utopia:
noun
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.

There didn't have to be anything amazing, or for there to be flying or miracles happening every second for there to be utopia. It just has to be a perfect world with no wrongdoing. And there was no wrongdoing in the Garden, until Adam and Eve's downfall.

"Adam and eve, weren't really old and had not many experience. It was pretty unsmart for a deity like god, to forbidd them to eat the apple. Why and how? Simple, imagine that you tell a child to not touch a bottom, the child is more likely to press the bottom after all."

Adam and Eve were not children, though. In fact, they were adults. They understood language, had complex emotions, and acted like adults. They were just "new" to the world. And in fact, he even began the human language by naming the animals (Genesis 3). So neither Adam or Eve were "dumb" or children, in fact. They were simply like man today: fallen into Satan's trap of temptation.

"Next if we give a PART of the infinity to some people, then how could they disuse it?"
Uh, a lot of ways:
They could take over kingdoms with their power.
They could force people to do their will.
They could murder humans.
They could murder animals, specimens, or the earth (destroying wildlife and landforms).
They could create a world where they are the leader/god instead of the true God

And the list goes on...
As I said in the last argument, it has been PROVEN throughout history that if you give people power, at least some of them will misuse it.

"The God, still could make a different reality after all. And if someone possesses infinite power and knowledge. Then its not hard to make a combination of a paradise and punishment. Free will, still can exist if an emotion like evil disappears."

If free will exists, evil MUST exist. That's how free will works. If you give people freedom, you do not expect all of them to instantly do the right thing. Adam and Eve were pure at the beginning, and did the right thing, until they were tempted by Satan. And in a free will world, Satan still exists. Temptation still exists. Therefore evil STILL EXISTS, no matter what world you live in, if it supports FREE WILL.

"Jesus had no evil and he still possessed emotions."
Emotions can still exist without evil. I never said they couldn't. But Jesus WAS God, incapable of evil. None of us are incapable of evil. But God is a perfect entity, he can exist without evil. Even while tempted, Jesus quoted Bible verses to prevent Satan from getting a hold of Him.

The point is, at the end of the day, your argument makes no sense. In a free will world, humans will still do evil deeds. Give humans power, they will misuse it. God knows what's best for us all, and Him loving us is Him NOT giving us this power, is NOT allowing us to have "a portion of infinity", as you so put it. The reason he chooses NOT do to the things you listed above is for very good reasons, as I have already listed.

But to answer your original question:
"If God is omnipotent and omibenevolent and all knowing, then why couldn't he make a better reality?"
God had already made a perfect reality. Humanity just messed it up.
And there is still the perfect reality that is Heaven. God gave us the free will to choose whether we want to genuinely love Him or not. If we choose not, an eternity in Hell awaits us; what we deserve.
Or, if we accept his grace, then we have a life of perfectness ahead of us in Heaven, the life that awaited us in the Garden, the life that we humans messed up.

Thank you for the time and the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
It's inception, that's how XD
(good movie by the way)
Posted by Lukas8 2 years ago
Lukas8
How can we ***mind blown*** you by debating inside a diff debate. And Deablo1 you could be right, since the US gov really did do a lot of covering up things. But still be sceptical.
Posted by Deablo1 2 years ago
Deablo1
Here it is if you want to Rea it yourself, but apparently it's false... You could theorize that NASA is covering up, or something to that effect. But I am above that, so I will admit defeat on this front http://www.snopes.com...
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
There's a debate inside of a debate.
*mind blown*
Seriously though, this could be an interesting debate between you too.
Posted by Lukas8 2 years ago
Lukas8
The Solar Eclipse causes the lack of sunlight. I would like to read where have scientist found evidence for large lacking of sunlight. A sea cucumber doesnt own a real brain, but its does own a nervous sys. And a cucumber as a plant, doesnt own a nervous system as well. Plants do react on their environment in a different way, just like climbing plants. But even if cucumbers (the plant version) would own a brain than it would be much more different than ours. Plus how could a brain be useful if there arent any nerves or even sense organs. Mollusca are quite intelligent and have their special brain and nervous system. Cnidaria doesnt own a brain, they do have nerves, but they dont own centres. And the earth isnt 6 centilion (what ever this is) old, its 4,5+/- bilion years old. This has been tested, by comparing the amounts of uranium and its last decay lead, in fact its an quite amazing story how the measurements have been made.
OK, we have to agree that there are things that even Science cant explain, like dark-matter.
But unlike religion science can be corrected if proven to be wrong. But the religion has to Reform, like the Christianity. (but religion isnt totally wrong, it connects and helps people)
Posted by Lukas8 2 years ago
Lukas8
Ok, partly agree. Its true that we cant measure thing exsactly, its imposible. If you measure like 2 nm you still can see that the acctuall size is 2.00004 nm. It goes to the smallest particles.
Posted by Deablo1 2 years ago
Deablo1
Cucumbers have a (small tiny tiny part of) a brain that can feel pain, but that's it. It cannot make decisions. I personally believe God created things with an appearance of age. Earlier I think I mentioned a missing day. This is important because the day that Christ died, the sun did not show. Scientists have traced back, and literally found an aberration where the sun was nowhere to be seen. There's tons of science and history to back up the Bible. I dont know all the answers. Heck, I dont even know all the questions. But I would love to try to answer your questions. I do not believe that science contradicts the bible. With our current dating methods, we cannot prove the earth is past 12,000 years old. We can theorize up to 20,000 and still be more or less right. The truth science proves what you want it to prove. Evidence can be teeked and voila, the earth is over 6 centillion years old. Also, much of science uses assumptions. Like missing links for evolution have not been found. Read case for a creator, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, and (to understand Christianity better) don't check your brains at the door. Thank you. This is a very good debate
Posted by Lukas8 2 years ago
Lukas8
Sorry, for both, when I said uneducated I ment the people in history. Next earths gravity does not pull exsactlly equall on all places. And the density of earth really depends where you are. In the Alps you"ll get the density of rocks, in the ocean the density of water+ salt, and other stuff.... ANd even magma in different places contains different amounts of substances, this automaticaly makes it different dense. When you said young earth it really depends , what time you mean. When earth was trulley jung, such earthquakes couldnt do much since there werent any lithospheric plates. I hope that you looked up for the Uranus axis tilt. And about religious imagination of the world, it does help, but its wrong. If a religion tells that sodium explodes in water because of an imaginary friend its wrong, it explodes because of the reaction and release of an e-. And how did you mean that cucumbers fell pain? And plants reproduction system includes a pns like style/Stigma.
Posted by Deablo1 2 years ago
Deablo1
Cucumbers do feel pain and have a pns (not like a brain). They cannot go to heaven. But science has proven that they feel pain. Second, the earth is equally dense on all sides, a good average, she shifing ot the axis is better explained by seismic activity (the 9 magnitude earthquake moved it about .0007 degrees). So a young earth makes sense. If the earth is young, it takes a lot of .0007's to move it as far as it has moved. And don't you dare call me uneducated. I sit around and read science papers all day. All freaking day. Do you know how many uneducated guesses they make? A lot. So if you're trying to call me uneducated, just stop. I find that God and a Christian worldview clears a lot up.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Valkrin
Uneducated people tend to believe lies, yes, but who said I was uneducated?
In fact, some of the top scientists in the world analyze science and believe it must have been the work of an intelligent designer. There has also been proof of a "world flood", found from geologists. Evidence of Noah's ark has even been found. Feel free to check here: http://joeforamerica.com...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
Lukas8ValkrinTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's free will argument negates the resolution.