The Instigator
Tminusfour20
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Genghis_Khan
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

If god was real he would've created immortal beings

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Genghis_Khan
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/6/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,169 times Debate No: 69552
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (31)
Votes (1)

 

Tminusfour20

Pro

God being omnipotent would have created individuals, maybe not stronger, but at least immortal and closer to power to him than to us. It would be in God's favor to do so and would end the God debate for good.

Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.
Genghis_Khan

Con

Pro makes the absolute claim that if God existed, he would definitely have made his creations immortal. This is completely baseless and has no evidence whatsoever. The mere possession of power does not mandate its full use. In other words, just because an omnipotent God would have the power to create immortal beings does not mean that he would use that power to actually do so. Pro claims that it would be in his "favor to do so" and that it would "end the God debate for good", but he never explains why this is the case. And even if either of those assertions were true, it would still not prove Pro's absolute claim to be true, because God doesn't necessarily have to do everything that is "in his favor", nor would he necessarily be interested in "ending the God debate". I will wait for Pro to actually try supporting his claim in the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
Tminusfour20

Pro

In Scenario A God creates Adam and Eve and the heavens universe and all that is within it as the bible suggests.

In Scenario B God decides to take a simpler more effective route.

1) He creates a world of Immortal and holy god like creatures that mimic his holiness.
2) These immortal beings are pure and sin free and thus can communicate with the lord as suggested in Genesis.
3) There would be no suffering in a world full of sinless, immortal beings and no unnecessary death or cruelty.
4) All beings would know God and thus be eternally grateful to God for creating them putting to rest any dispute about the existence of God.
5) God would be pleased with the purity of his creation and how much they love respect and praise him thus strengthening the relationship with god.

Scenario A is clearly a better scenario not just in the interests of God wishing to be close to his children and the desire for the purity of his children. This would also end all suffering and would ensure everyone has the same knowledge about God ultimately unifying everyone around the world around this undeniable truth.

Scenario B Lacks any clear purpose of God or at least doesn't define the purposes of god by Bible definitions.

If God truly exists Scenario A would have been reasonably within his powers and reasonably sufficient for his intentions with his creation here on earth and would ultimately be a better plan all round.
Genghis_Khan

Con

As I observed last round, God would not necessarily want to "be close to his children", "end all suffering", or have everyone believe in a single "undeniable truth". The perfect, divine utopia Pro has described actually sounds quite boring: a reality which would eventually become mundane and uninteresting to both its ruler and its inhabitants. Why should we believe that this is what God wants? Why should Pro get to dictate what constitutes a "better" plan? Attempting to determine what is "in the interests of God" is futile, because we have no possible way of knowing what God's goals or desires are. God does not have to conform to Pro's conceptions of what an all-powerful being should be like, which is why Pro's argument is fatally flawed.
Debate Round No. 2
Tminusfour20

Pro

I would like you to tell me how my scenario is any different than what heaven will be? That scenario is exactly like what heaven will be why didn't he start us out that way? there is not one negative aspect of that scenario. If the character of god is as described in the bible, I can think of a couple of other ways he could have gone about doing things to have a better outcome. Noah's ark supports that he clearly was not happy with the outcome of his creation at one point.
Genghis_Khan

Con

Again, Pro misses the point. Perhaps God wants his beloved children to have to earn heaven. Perhaps God and his angels watch people struggle on the dystopia known as Earth as some sort of reality TV show. Perhaps heaven doesn't even exist. The resolution of the debate does not specify that "God" has to be as he is portrayed in Abrahamic religions. The crux of my argument is that if an all-knowing and all-powerful being such as God exists, we have no way of knowing God's goals, and so it is impossible for us to make absolute claims about what he "would have done". Pro's claim is literally impossible to affirm.
Debate Round No. 3
Tminusfour20

Pro

Would you like your beloved children to earn heaven with the possible of eternal damnation? If you created heaven and hell why would it even be a question as to where your child would go. You're correct in that I never specified which "God" we are referring to but it was implied by myself and mostly everyone else that we are talking about the character of the god of the bible. Knowing the definitions used to define god by mostly everyone. (All Knowing, Omnipotent, All Powerful, Pure. Holy,) I can assume that my alternative scenario is infinitely better in every aspect in relation to the commonly described character of God. I don't see how testing the motives of his creation and allowing them to carry through life with unverified knowledge in hopes that they make the right decision is the best option for anyone. No parent would be fine with not giving their child the necessary tools to go out into the world on their own in hopes that they will ultimately make the right decision. It doesn't sound at all beneficial to anyone especially considering that the trials and tribulations of this world as well as most of the decisions we make on earth are irrelevant once in heaven. There will be nothing but purity in heaven and no free will that doesn't align with God. I don't see how earning heaven by struggling on earth and then living a boring monotonous eternity solves anything for anyone, why not skip the heartache and make life happy for everyone like any good person would. I may never be able to affirm the motives of God but I can definitely think of many other ways someone who holds the description of a Benevolent, all powerful, all knowing, Father God would handle his creation. Even after causing a flood and having a second chance to reform the world and create a better existence for humanity that would also be pleasing in his sight. It's irrational to think that this is the best he can do considering his immense power and benevolence.
Genghis_Khan

Con

I'm not sure why Pro is asking me what I would do if I were God, because I'm not God, and I don't know what God wants any better than he does. Pro's last round is nothing but emotional appeals centered around the faulty assumption that what he deems to be the "best choice" is necessarily what God would deem to be the "best choice". Pro's standard of what constitutes "good" and "better" is completely baseless. There is no rule written in the sky that God would have to conform to that standard in making his judgments. As mortals with limited knowledge, we have no way of fathoming what an all-powerful, all-knowing being would do. Pro's case is fundamentally flawed in that it attempts to ascertain what God would do without any knowledge of what God's personality or goals are; instead, he fallaciously assumes that God would share his subjective values and builds his entire case off of that. The resolution has not been affirmed. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
31 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by rextr05 2 years ago
rextr05
Regarding the killings sanction or supposedly by God, I thought I had written to you on that. Can be allegory or keeping in times with the culture back then, or a teaching moment by God to tell us how strongly it was for any evil to be left standing, as in the commands to kill everything living after a battle or 2. God knew that the ancient Jews were easily lead away into temptation of all sorts of bad stuff, so He commanded them to kill & therefore get a better base of belief in Him w/o temptation.
Your "I didn't think it's fair to place a forbidden tree and ..." I don't think anyone really believes it was a snake or an apple tree. It was probably more of something they weren't supposed to do like taking ownership of a piece of land & therefore starting the process of being selfish & protecting their land, which resulted in jealousy, a non-sharing attitude & eventual fighting & murder related to staking their claim to ownership b4 they were mature enough to own something w/o the possibility of starting the downfall of humanity thru selfishness. Then again, there could have been other situations where someone back then did something else that brought their downfall that didn't involve a snake per say, yet the free will they had maybe led to something that God knew was detrimental to the success of a harmonious human race.

Free will has dictated the dilemma we face in all aspects today. But, whats the alternative? Pre-Programmed as a robot? Thing I didn't see from you is placing the accountability on those that have chosen to use that free will for the detriment of the rest of us. & we are that product of all past bad decisions & some good ones also. & whose fault is that? God for giving us a free will? Or those that make bad decisions. Don't forget, those same people could have made decisions that could have positively impacted us. (We are included in that last scenario too). Many movies out there of no free will & the governments end up overthrown.
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
"anyone that murders another or causes strife does not align with God" I can present to you tons of verses where God sanctions killing and many more verses where God does the killing himself.

I didn't think it's fair to place a forbidden tree and talking snake in the garden. Knowing the consequences of disobedience as well as human nature. God should have known it was a recipe for disaster and that only suffering would eventually come from it. I never asked for my human nature to be this way, nor have I asked for my free will. God created humans to have the biggest internal road block between themselves and salvation. If we had no free will we wouldn't miss it the same way dogs are completely happy serving their masters for their entire life, we would ultimately go to heaven and never know that there was alternative to belief in God or that there is something you can do to disobey him.

It was awesome talking with you. Your honesty and viewpoints have not fallen on deaf ears and I hope to have more discussions with you in the future.
Posted by rextr05 2 years ago
rextr05
T-420, Your, "deep religious experience with God but so did a suicide bomber or jihadist." Thing is one can can it is truly from God or not if it aligns with God's love & anyone that murders another or causes strife does not align with God.
Your, "...God that toys with his creation just to confirm loyalty ..." Initially God exposed man to a life in paradise right? Man chose to leave by disrespecting His one mandate. So, who's fault is that anyway? Does He 'toy' with us or let us make our own choices & then we have to live with the consequences of those choices ..... good or bad.
Your, "... operate within the world I am forced to be part of..." the only world we are forced to be a part of is being on this earth & maybe the color of our skin & some medical conditions, but the rest is up to us to either change those conditions or maintain the status quo & be unsatisfied but content to live within that 'world.' Your time traveler example lacks the definition of faith tho. One has to believe in their heart that the 'something' exists. It is then real to them, ..... well, unless the person is subject to hallucinations or some other psychotic episodes.

I do appreciate your candor & honesty with your responses. A rare commodity for a young perswon as yourself. (Judging by your picture that is). I've had a very nice & respectful communication from you considering the difference of opinion. Thanx for that. I feel that some of you impressions of God has been molded by some false info & you haven't gotten to know God's love & grace. That's unfortunate. Who knows what the future holds for you in this world tho. Be cool & see ya around this site some more maybe. Peace.
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
I prefer to stay out of the argument because I have no evidence that can be truly justified against someone else's. You may have had a deep religious experience with God but so did a suicide bomber or jihadist. I mean be realistic would you really put aside your morals and everything you consider right and wrong if God whispered into your ear and told you to go to the top of a mountain and kill your son? Regardless of the bigger picture Great power does not always demand respect and I have no respect for a God that toys with his creation just to confirm loyalty that will never be acceptable to me regardless of the circumstances. As far as faith goes. I believes things as long as I have a good reason to. If someone tells me they love me they act lovingly and do loving things. I may never know if it's truly love but you cant tell me I don't have reason to believe that they do. It isn't blind faith at that point it's experience and having a reasonable feeling backed by some sort of evidence. We have to operate by world we see around us as those things are certain. It becomes uncertain when you bring in things that can't be proved or require faith. We could all be a brain in a test tube in the matrix going through our own virtual reality and though it may never be able to be proved. I will still operate within the world I am forced to be part of and I wont entertain outside ideas until they can be proved. I might as well be able to bring any uncertainty into my world view and tell everyone to have faith when I say a time traveler came to visit me. This is the world we live in and I see no example of anything influencing my world from outside of my reality. God included.
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
I would like to note that everyone somewhere down the line adopts the viewpoints of those around you and I'm sure your viewpoints are very align with your church or religious group or at least your family unit. I am influenced by the viewpoints of others just like everyone else but I also come to my own conclusions and create my own viewpoints which is what I did after leaving the faith. I also want to let it be known that I am always up to change my viewpoints where I see fit. I refuse to create and acceptable category for every questionable thing that God has done. I understand the savagery in the OT was the norm back and society is different now, but regardless I cant find an excuse for a lot of cruel and unusual acts in the bible that has no place in a world actively governed by a benevolent God. I find it more logical to believe that people are cruel and used God as the authority to control groups of people by fear and to carry out whatever laws and desires they may have using God's authority as a scapegoat. I've given up the quest for God as I was trying to hold on to my faith by reading more into things and solidifying my beliefs so I can better witness to others like myself. I can not put aside my morality or the facts that I know about the world or how arrogant it is to think that my religion out of all the religions out there is the only correct ideology to have. The many billions of people that have lived before me with their own ideas and even the many different denominations within the religions all have slightly different things to say and though they may all believe in God but there are debates till this day about the core centers of Christianity. The character of God is not a universal belief to all religions, neither is the existence of Jesus or the Prohpet Muhammad, or the afterlife. How can you tell millions of people they are wrong when they are going f the exact same tools as you? Cont....
Posted by rextr05 2 years ago
rextr05
T-420, You pose a slightly different argument regarding probability. Nice. No on else has said that. Probably the 2 ways I can answer that is that Christianity is the largest religion out there & Islam 2nd, yet that only proves that WE have the faith that there is a God. The other is having experience some pretty cool & strange stuff ever since I became a believer 7 or so years ago. I to, grew up a Christian, Catholic, but never had a sense of ....... anything that resembled faith. So, in early high school I just grew apart, better yet, quit listening to my mom. Here it is many years later & like I said, I asked God to help me understand what's He all about & pretty much thru many weird instance, I now believe & use that as my evidence for Jesus/God. I can't ask you or anyone else to use my evidence, cuz just like how we view many things, we all determine what we use as valid evidence & it is all different for everyone. But single common thread I have determined from others with regards to God revealing Himself is when I initiated a conversation with Him. No, God didn't speak verbally to me or anything, it's prob different for everyone, but the same. A general sense of calm & like when we are down in the dumps or just done something really stupid & someone talks to us & we feel relieved & finally see a way out of it. Same thing here, but it just doesn't stop coming. & it was never like that b4, so that's my evidence of faith in God. Please note there are many concrete things that have happened that have strengthened my belief in God ..... many. & it's very common for folks to get disenfranchised & quit doing or chasing something ....... like God for example. Some give up their quest, others fight to get back what they have lost, like a baseball or golf swing, a lost friend, ....... or lost faith in God.
Posted by rextr05 2 years ago
rextr05
Cont ..... Some get so hung up on the OT, altho they don't know if it was an allegory or judge by today's standards. None of us know for sure except what we read ..... & now get from the many pro & con internet sites rather than study Jesus' message. OK, I can empathize with your version of the OT mean God a bit. When Jesus came & said He fulfilled the OT, didn't that mean something was supposed to change about it to you? Sure enough, it was all about loving ones neighbor & let God deal with the rest as a perfect loving parent only can. & guess what, we have really ne conception of what God thinks or does anymore cuz of all the hate displayed in the wrld, & all the 'religious' zealots that claim to know the right way to interpret everything, yet fall flat in being self-serving & therefore give a distorted (their own) version of what the bible says. It's now about what Jesus said. Those 2 sentences that pretty much tell us to love one another, love the earth & love God. & since Jesus just happens to be God, doing the 1st one & following what He told us to, pretty much covers it ........... NOT what other people tell us Jesus is all about.
OK, you seem to know the difference of faith & proof. You believe something cuz of prior experience, but not necessarily a proven fact. (3 cat thing). Logical, yet dangerous depending on the subject matter I suppose. But you do have faith in things. The only thing is that you seem to be hung up on is that you don't need proof for love, which is a rare comodity these days it seems other han someones action & they tell you they love you. That is faith that they love you & the evidence is what you have experienced from them, altho they could have ulterior motives & not really love you ....... but that's faith right?
Cont ........
Posted by rextr05 2 years ago
rextr05
T-420, Your, "I never left religion until I began to acknowledge truths about the geography of the earth and the history of humans as well as facts about evolution." What has the bible said that would lead you to think anything differently about the geography of earth or evolution. Or was it maybe certain religions told you something. Then I must ask where they got it from. Certainly not from the bible. I believe in evolution. Why couldn't God use evolution to put the 1st man on earth? Does it say anything about that other than God formed the 1st man. Don't forget that the 1st write of the bible wrote according to what he perceived the earth to be & wrote it to a certain culture at the time. Was he going to say 6 days or 6 billion years, (know that the word 'yom' which was the original word used in the bible to describe days, meant a 24 hr period, sunrise to sunset, or an undetermined yet very long time. Look it up) which he had no idea about. It's the message we are supposed to get, not hung up on certain so-called facts, especially when the bible doesn't specify it or may be an allegory, which the bible & Jesus (parables) we know relies on.
The punishment thing .... the culture of the OT was very violent & male oriented. It seems that we look at that time with today's western eyes & proclaim they were savages or whatever, but that's the way of life back then & God only showed them what they could handle. We had to wait for Jesus to radically & revolutionarily change the way of thinking. Please note that not many 'religious' folks back then bought into His teachings cuz it was so different.
"I know a parent's love and I know god's love and they don't match up." How do you know that for sure ...... or are you just listening to others & their interpretation of everything from the bible to life? It seems as tho you have not been reading or listening to the folks you should have.
Cont .........
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
I don't have faith at all but I am reasonable. I wouldn't cook blind folded just because I can cook well and I've cooked the dish hundred of times. I am humble enough to know my limitations and not let strong emotions take over my reality. If I state my definition of love to someone and then ask them If they love me by my definitions and they agree. To prove that we love each other we can either ask one another or ask someone from the outside to ask us both individually to confirm. That's a lot of hoops to jump through for proof but it is still more proof than I have for God. With everything that holds merit in my life it can be confirmed somewhere along the line somehow. These things hold merit because they have provability and the more outrageous a claim is the proof it will need. If you tell me you have 3 cats I'll believe you because people typically have cats so It's reasonable to believe that you may have 3 as well. If you tell me you are a profit of Allah coming to save the world, I have all the right to distrust you based on the worlds experience with true, confirmed modern day profits which is basically none.
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
You nor I can prove the motives of God we don't know God for certain we dont know how he feels and that includes the assumption that he loves us as I have given examples that show unnecessary cruelty. I perceive things through human perception because that is all we know for absolute certain. There is no guarantee that when we die and close our eyes the next things we will see when they are opened is the things described in the bible. So many rules punishments and other noteworthy events in the bible are unnecessarily cruel and clearly align with the motives of a human. (numerous old testament laws : http://www.telegraph.co.uk...) I never left religion until I began to acknowledge truths about the geography of the earth and the history of humans as well as facts about evolution. The two can not exist in one another I don't reject religion out of vengeance but because I want to believe as many true things and as little incorrect things as possible.

I'm not concerned about what feels right because I know love, I know a parent's love and I know god's love and they don't match up. I don't see love behind the guilt placed on the religions to live a certain way or experience eternal torture. I see it as a God who enjoys the privilege of creating things, toying with them,Giving nonsensical rules mixed in with common sense rules with the ultimate goal of sending some to hell and most to heaven to worship him for the rest of eternity. I have found more value in my life by deciding to live life they way I wish to Heaven doesn't appeal to me as an enjoyable existence as I there's more to my life than full and total submission to what can never be confirmed till after death. By then whoever is right or wrong won't even matter.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Jingle_Bombs 2 years ago
Jingle_Bombs
Tminusfour20Genghis_KhanTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Both Pro and Con forget to argue the existence of angels or enternal Christian life in this debate. Which is both unusual and unfortunate considering the writing of the resolution. Likewise, Pro is right to believe that an omnipotent God could have created a better world, but fails to argue persuasively against Con's rebutalls to know exactly what God's goals & actual intentions are. This defeats the moral "would have" clause which is nessesary in order to win this debate. Pro may counter the inability "to know Gods plan" in the future by weighing it against the best interests of humanity - which Pro would have had a much more appropriate claim to. Instead of "would have," God "should have" made a better world with immortal beings.