The Instigator
Bible2000
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Jzyehoshua
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

If the Bible is entirely harmonious, is a place of eternal torment Biblical?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/23/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 578 times Debate No: 63796
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (15)
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Bible2000

Con

1. If Pro does not give a single Bible verse that proves a place of eternal torment, the idea that the wicked are eternally punished in fire is not Biblical.

2. If Pro does not give a reasonable explanation that can be backed up with the Bible of the many verses that contradict a place of eternal torment, the idea that the wicked are eternally punished in fire is not Biblical.

Pro may give his arguments that a place where the wicked are eternally tormented in fire is Biblical now, in round 1.

(Only accept if you believe God tortures people in hell. Thank you)
Jzyehoshua

Pro

Very well, I will debate this topic. I have read the Bible extensively and it seems very straightforward to me that a place of eternal torment for the wicked is plainly and consistently taught. While I try to quote a few surrounding verses to provide context, I realize some just want to see the applicable parts, so I will underline the parts which are most relevant.


=======================================

RELEVANT BIBLE VERSES

Isaiah 66:22-24 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

=======================================
CONCLUSION

To me the teaching that the wicked, particularly those who serve the satanic antichrist's final world kingdom, will be punished in eternal hellfire for eternity, seems largely straightforward. It's seen just from a straightforward reading of the Bible with no way to get around it.

I'm sure Con will now seek to argue on the basis of verses mentioning God's mercy and forgiveness, but this will fail of course to contradict or negate those mentioning eternal hellfire and torment. Mercy and forgiveness are always conditioned upon repentance, Biblically, in other words forsaking one's evil deeds. Mercy and forgiveness are not given to those who persist in their evil actions, but rather they accumulate future punishments as they do so. And this is the age where mercy and repentance is allowed, in this life, but at the end all will be judged according to their actions, Biblically.
Debate Round No. 1
Bible2000

Con

My Rebuttals

Isaiah 66:24 - “They will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh.”

Jesus Christ likely had this prophecy in mind when he encouraged his disciples to simplify their lives and put Kingdom interests first. He said: “If your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Gehenna, where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:47, 48 [one of the verses Pro used]; Matthew 5:29, 30; 6:33).

What is this place called Gehenna? Centuries ago, the Jewish scholar David Kimhi wrote: “It is a place [...] adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.” If, as this Jewish scholar suggests, Gehenna was used for the disposal of refuse and carcasses of those deemed unworthy of burial, fire would be a suitable means of eliminating such refuse. What the fire did not consume, the maggots would. What a fitting picture of the final end of all of God’s enemies!

Jude 1:7 - “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah stopped burning thousands of years ago. God’s judgment, however, was against not only those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 1:7 shows that the destruction was eternal.


Revelation 14:9-11 - Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name.

These verses speak of speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur [...] And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.” Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke, the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction, that continues forever, not the fiery torment.


Revelation 20:10 - And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

These verses say that the Devil will be cast into “the lake of fire” and “tormented day and night for ever and ever.” If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will destroy him (Hebrews 2:14). The symbolic fiery lake represents “the second death.” (Revelation 21:8). This is not the death first mentioned in the Bible, death because of Adam’s sin, death from which one may be released by a resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:21, 22). Because the Bible does not say that “the lake of fire” would release those in it, “the second death” must mean another kind of death, an irreversible one.

My Arguments

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 - “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all [...] All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.”

If the dead are
conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.

Ezekiel 18:4 - “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."

Here we see two things. Souls are not immortal since they can die and the punishment for sin is death, not eternal torment.


Job 14:13 - “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?

In the Bible, the Hebrew and Greek words often translated “hell” actually refer to the common grave of mankind. For example, when Job suffered a painful illness, he prayed: “I wish you would hide me in my grave.” (Job 14:13, Holy Bible—Easy-to-Read Version) Job wanted to rest, not in a place of torment or alienation from God, but in the grave.

Acts 2:25-27 - David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], [...] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Even Jesus was in hell. Why? He was perfect and never sinned. Because hell is just grave where the dead are.


Revelation 20:13, 14 - “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Here we see the Bible hell is not eternal since it delivers up the dead. What does that mean? Resurrection. The dead will leave grave. And notice how hell and lake of fire are mentioned as two different places? Hell (grave) is thrown in the lake of fire which the Bible teaches means the second death, or eternal destruction. Hell is thrown in the lake of fire meaning people won't have to die anymore.


==============================================================

Conclusion

Pro has not given a single Bible verse that proves the wicked are tortured eternally with fire in hell.

1. If Pro does not give a single Bible verse that proves a place of eternal torture, the idea that the wicked are eternally punished in fire is not Biblical.

2. If Pro does not give a reasonable explanation that can be backed up with the Bible of the many verses that contradict a place of eternal torture, the idea that the wicked are eternally punished in fire is not Biblical.

Thank you. I eagerly await Pro's response.





 


 




 













Jzyehoshua

Pro

Con finishes by arguing that I have not given a single passage which proves a place of eternal torture where the wicked are eternally punished in fire, yet I already gave 5 specific passages that expressly indicate just that. However, I'll address Con's specific objections to the passages.

MY ARGUMENTS

Isaiah 66:22-24 and Mark 9:43-48


I'm not really certain what the exact objection being made by Con to these verses is, frankly. Con states "What the fire did not consume, the maggots would. What a fitting picture of the final end of all of God’s enemies!" If Con agrees that consuming fire is a fitting picture of the end of God's enemies, then does that mean Con recognizes eternal punishment by fire is a fitting destruction for the enemies of God?

Perhaps Con is objecting to the torture itself being eternal, and arguing that the tortures themselves (fire and maggots) are eternal but that those being tortured are not tortured eternally? Isaiah 66:24 after all very specifically states that the fire will not be quenched (stopped) and the worms/maggots will not die. Mark 9:43-48 repeats this phrase no less than 3 different times, driving home the concept of eternal punishments.

Something which also bears pointing out concerning the phrase "their worm dieth not" is that it may well actually be referring not to actual maggots but the spirits of people. After all, referring to people, including oneself, as a "worm" was an Old Testament phrase for those in shameful position. See for example Job 25:6, Psalms 22:6, Isaiah 41:14, and Micah 7:17. If so it would actually be a direct reference to the evil living eternally in torture.

Jude 1:7

Con argues that although Sodom and Gomorrah are "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" that this was an event in the distant past. However, the inference to me is referencing the eternal fire which tortures those after this life, not a temporary city-wide destruction. The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed physically in this life, and are kept in a place of torment in the next life as an example to the rest of God's creation of what the reward for unmitigated evil will be.

Revelation 14:9-11

The passage clearly states concerning those who follow the Beast/Antichrist that they will be "tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest..."

Again, Con tries to avoid the implications of eternal torture by suggesting that it's just the smoke which is eternal, not the torture itself. But smoke does not exist without a source, a fire that provides it. Does it really make sense for the evil to suffer a temporary torture but for the smoke of it to just hang around in the air eternally? No, the clear implication is that the torture itself will be neverending, and produce smoke that is likewise eternal.

Revelation 20:10

This passage really should be the definite evidence that eternal torture will apply to the devil and the Beast/Antichrist, as it specifically states "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Con correctly acknowledges that there is a difference between the first and second deaths mentioned in the chapter, but this after claiming "If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will destroy him (Hebrews 2:14)."

It should be pointed out first of all that Hebrews 2:14 simply says Jesus will destroy the devil, not how or when this will occur. It could easily be referring to the Revelation 20 passage in question, where the devil and Beast/Antichrist are thrown into the Lake of Fire to suffer eternal torment.

Furthermore there are actually two deaths and two resurrections. The first death is in this life specifically. Job speaks of this, saying "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." (Job 19:26) It is a physical death, and will be followed by a first resurrection of those murdered by the Beast/Antichrist, and those resurrected will live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years in what is known as the Milennial Reign. (Revelation 20:4-6)

The second resurrection is that mentioned in Revelation 20:12-13. The three locations where the dead are now being held, the sea, death, and hell will all give up the dead in them to be judged at a final judgment according to their individual deeds. Then will occur what is known as the second death, where those not written in the Book of Life will be cast into an eternal Lake of Fire to suffer the eternal torment prophesied earlier. (Revelation 20:12-15) This second death is an eternal one.

Jesus even speaks to how fearsome this eternal second death is, saying "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

OPPONENT ARGUMENTS

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

Con argues that the dead are not conscious of anything, but to me the passage seems to refer to awareness of events in this life. This is seen from 9:6 also, which states "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." To summarize 9:5-10 one could say that the message is that one should use their time in this life wisely because once dead there is no longer any impact or part in what goes on in this life.

However, Solomon the writer of Ecclesiastes speaks from a natural perspective for most of the book, but acknowledges at the end a final Judgment, stating:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


However, the dead are CLEARLY said to feel pain throughout the Bible. Con wants to interpret the phrase "dead are conscious of nothing" to mean that the dead don't feel pain, but that is entirely inconsistent with these and other passages.

Luke 16:22-24 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Ezekiel 18:4


Con argues that mention of a soul dying here indicates souls are not immortal. However, just as there is life eternal Biblically, even so there is death eternally.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude 1:7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Job 14:13 and Acts 2:25-27

I have to admit, Con does know the Bible very well, better than most people I've met. When the Old Testament speaks of Hell the Hebrew word translated as Hell is often "sheol" and can simply mean the place of darkness and death where the dead go, as addressed in the book of Job.

http://www.biblestudytools.com...;

Where I disagree with Con is their conclusion that there is no suffering involved. As seen from Luke 16:22-24 which I previously quoted, sheol is divided into two sections with a great gulf or chasm in between. One where the dead go in general, including the righteous Abraham and Lazarus, and one where the evil go to be tormented, for example the merciless rich man. While one half of it is free from torment, the other half is not.

Revelation 20:13-14

With all due respect to Con, they are picking and choosing here by omitting the crucial verse 15,
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Con only mentions part of the passage here, the part that suits their claim of an afterlife without torment.

Yes, Hell and the Lake of Fire are different places. Hell currently exists but will deliver up the dead for a final resurrection, the second resurrection, as previously addressed. Hell will then be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Those who had been in Hell will then undergo a Final Judgment along with all others in creation. However, what Con tries to ignore by omitting verse 15 is that after this Final Judgment, those not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I say this immense respect for Con's knowledge of the Bible. But I do not think they are quoting the passage in context by omitting the key verse 15 which completely damages their argument.

CONCLUSION

I have strongly established that the Bible does indicate eternal torment. Revelation 20:10, Matthew 25:46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7 all explicitly mention eternal punishment for the wicked.
Debate Round No. 2
Bible2000

Con

Isaiah 66:22-24 and Mark 9:43-48

My objection to these verses is that they do not suggest eternal torture. Gehenna was used to dispose of the dead carcasses of those who were unworthy of burial. Jesus knew that the very thought of burning people alive is repugnant to his heavenly Father, Jehovah. Referring to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah, God said: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (Jeremiah 7:31). The idea of torment for the dead conflicts with God’s loving personality as well as with the Bible’s clear teaching that the dead are “conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10). Jesus used the term “Gehenna” to symbolize the utter destruction resulting from God’s adverse judgment. Hence, “Gehenna” has a meaning similar to that of “the lake of fire,” mentioned in the book of Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which no resurrection is possible. (Luke 12:4, 5; Revelation 20:14, 15).

It is true that "worm" was an Old Testament phrase for those in shameful position. However, Isaiah 66:24 says "the very worms upon them". What does the context suggest? Those thrown in Gehenna are not the ones being describes as "worms", although they are. The verse is talking about the worms upon them, the worms subsisting on the decaying bodies near the fire. That the worms will not die and that the fire will not be extinguished is symbolic for eternal destruction from which no resurrection is possible, not eternal torture.

Jude 1:7

My objection to this verse is that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah stopped burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. This verse does not suggest that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah were kept in a place of torment after their physical destruction.

Revelation 14:9-11

My objection to this verse is that all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented. Is the fire literal? It may be. Maybe those who "worship the wild beast and its image and [...] receive the mark of its name" will be destroyed with fire, and maybe the fire will continue forever, but not the torment. The text states that it is the smoke, the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction, that continues forever, not the torment.

Revelation 20:10

My objection to this verse is that If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but everlasting life is a gift from God, not a punishment (Romans 6:23). Also, the Bible says that Jesus will destroy Satan (Hebrews 2:14).

Con says, "It should be pointed out first of all that Hebrews 2:14 simply says Jesus will destroy the devil, not how or when this will occur." Let's see two definitions of the word "destroy":


"to put an end to; extinguish."

"to kill; slay."

(Definitions from: http://dictionary.reference.com...)

How or when this will occur is irrelevant. If Jesus will destroy (put an end to, extinguish, kill, or slay) the Devil, his torture will not be eternal. So, what does it mean that he is tormented "day and night forever and ever" if he will not be tortured for all eternity? The context of the Bible indicates that the torment of the Devil is everlasting restraint or destruction.

Now, is the lake of fire a literal "lake"? The following are cast into the lake of fire:
  • The Devil. (Revelation 20:10) As a spirit creature, the Devil cannot be harmed by literal fire. (Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:20).
  • Death. (Revelation 20:14) This is not a literal entity but represents a state of inactivity, the absence of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Death cannot literally be burned.
  • “The wild beast” and “the false prophet.” (Revelation 19:20) Since these are symbols, doesn’t it seem reasonable to conclude that the lake they are thrown into is also symbolic? (Revelation 13:11, 12; 16:13).

The Bible says that the lake of fire “means the second death.” (Revelation 20:14; 21:8) The first kind of death mentioned in the Bible resulted from Adam’s sin. This death can be reversed by resurrection and will eventually be eliminated by God. (1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 26).

The lake of fire represents a different, or second, kind of death. Although it too represents a state of total inactivity, it is different in that the Bible says nothing about a resurrection from the second death. For example, the Bible says that Jesus has “the keys of hell and of death,” showing that he has the authority to release people from the death brought by Adam’s sin. (Revelation 1:18; 20:13) However, neither Jesus nor anyone else has a key to the lake of fire. That symbolic lake represents eternal punishment in the form of permanent destruction. (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

OPPONENT REBUTTALS

"To summarize [Ecclesiastes] 9:5-10 one could say that the message is that one should use their time in this life wisely because once dead there is no longer any impact or part in what goes on in this life."

That's an interesting interpretation. However, from what I have learned from studying the Bible, I can not agree with it. I'll explain why.

God created this earth with a purpose. He told Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it." It was God’s purpose that humans have children, extend the boundaries of that garden home earth wide, and take care of the animals. What God purposes he will surely do! “I have even spoken it,” God declares, “I shall also do it.” (Isaiah 46:9-11;55:11) He says that he “did not create [the earth] simply for nothing” but “formed it even to be inhabited.” (Isaiah 45:18) What kind of people did God want to live on the earth? And for how long did he want them to live here? The Bible answers: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29; Revelation 21:3, 4). The Scriptures go on to say that there will be a resurrection for both the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15).
“the unrighteous” mentioned here include the great masses of mankind who have died throughout history, particularly those who lived in "times of ignorance." (Acts 17:30).

So, really, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 does not suggest we will only live this life once. Rather, it makes a clear comparison between those who are alive and those who are dead. The living know they will die, but the dead know nothing at all. They are unconscious, not suffering in some other place.

The Bible states that when a person dies, “the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Does this mean that a spirit entity literally travels through space into God’s presence? Not at all!

The way in which the Bible uses the word “returns” does not require an actual movement from one place to another. For example, unfaithful Israelites were told: “‘Return to me, and I will return to you,’ Jehovah of armies has said.” (Malachi 3:7) Israel’s "returning" to Jehovah meant a turning around from a wrong course and again conforming to God’s righteous way. And Jehovah’s "returning" to Israel meant his turning favorable attention to his people once again. In both cases the “return” involved an attitude, not a literal displacement from one geographic location to another.

Similarly, at death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the spirit “returns” to God. Once the life-force is gone from a person, only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit “returns to the true God” in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death at Luke 16:19-31? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that account is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you?

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. So, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised. (Acts 5:33; 7:54).

Ezekiel 18:4

Frankly, I don't understand what the exact objection being made by Pro concerning this verse is. Yes, Biblically there is eternal life and eternal death, but no eternal torture.

Job 14:13 and Acts 2:25-27

Pro admits, "'sheol' [...] can simply mean the place of darkness and death where the dead go". But, he does not agree there that is no suffering involved because of the parable in Luke which I already explained. Pro is yet to give a Bible verse that proves the supposed half of sheol where the wicked are tormented.

Revelation 20:13-14


Pro says I omitted a crucial verse, verse 15. However, I did not include it because I did not consider it to be crucial. Yes, those not written in the Book of Life will be cast in the Lake of Fire which means the second death, eternal destruction. Verse 15 does not suggest eternal fiery torture.
______________________________


Conclusion


Pro has not given a single Bible verse that proves the wicked are tortured eternally with fire in hell, nor has he given a reasonable explanation that can be backed up with the Bible of the many verses that contradict a place of eternal torture.

Thank you. I eagerly await Pro's response.








   


  

















 



 





 














Jzyehoshua

Pro

Jzyehoshua forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Bible2000

Con

It appears I've won. :)

I invite the audience to visit JW.org. It is the official site of Jehovah's Witnesses. It has helped millions find the answers to life's big questions. It is also the most translated website in the internet available currently in 691 languages with the Bible in over 100 languages, and those numbers keep increasing! Also check out tv.jw.org, their official internet channel. It came out recently.


Jzyehoshua

Pro

Jzyehoshua forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Bible2000

Con

Bible2000 forfeited this round.
Jzyehoshua

Pro

Jzyehoshua forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jzyehoshua 2 years ago
Jzyehoshua
Strange, the BibleStudyTools link didn't work, yet this one does.

http://www.biblestudytools.com...

The link text is exactly identical, but for some reason the link isn't working.
Posted by littlejerry 2 years ago
littlejerry
The bible uses the term "children of God" (and that of the sort) in two ways. One, referring to those who have been born of God, just as you mentioned, and two, literal spirit children. Here are some references that show we are all his children. Literally.
Acts 17:29
Hebrews 12:9
Posted by Bible2000 2 years ago
Bible2000
Yes, it could also be said the other way around. "What the maggots did not consume, the fire would". The point is that what will be consumed is dead carcasses of God's enemies.
Posted by mightbenihilism 2 years ago
mightbenihilism
Question, "What the fire did not consume, the maggots would."

Wouldn't the fire consume what the maggots wouldn't? I mean, I have burned trash before, and I have also seen my trash eaten up by maggots (it often happens when I leave eggs or chicken in the trash and don't seal it up well), and the fire seems to have done a better job.
Posted by mightbenihilism 2 years ago
mightbenihilism
It seems to me the annihilationist position is one where the people die, but the worms do not. So, God makes corpses of the bad-guys, and keeps the worms around forever to. . . do what exactly?

The fire doesn't go out, either. So there's this big eternal flaming pit of fire and worms, but it really serves no purpose. No one is getting fried, except maybe for a few minutes, tops. After they're all gone, all that's left is the lake of worms and flames, smoking billowing up forever and ever, but it is emptier than Jesus' tomb. It's pretty cool, I must admit, but it's kind of functionless. But considering that God made guinea pigs, he doesn't always seem to be too concerned with functionality when it comes to creation.

Makes sense I guess.
Posted by Jzyehoshua 2 years ago
Jzyehoshua
Biblically being a child of God is conditional. The entire New Testament makes this distinction between the children of God and the children of the devil. The idea that everybody is a child of God is a myth.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

John 8:41-45 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Posted by Jzyehoshua 2 years ago
Jzyehoshua
Biblically some people are the children of God and others are the children of Satan. See John 8:41-44 for example. This idea that everybody is a child of God is not Biblical.
Posted by littlejerry 2 years ago
littlejerry
many people misinterpret hell. If someone thinks that a loving Heavenly Father would damn his children to a place of eternal fire and pain just because they didn't listen to him is crazy. Many people wouldn't even do that to their own children let alone a loving God. If anyone disagrees, please tell me why
Posted by Jzyehoshua 2 years ago
Jzyehoshua
I think the Bible means what it says, and is clearly consistent in showing there is an eternal torment, not just for Satan and the fallen angels, but those who follow Satan as well. It's not "idiotic" to think a book means what it says when there's no indication given otherwise. And I'm not Catholic nor ever have been.

It seems clear that eternal torment is going to occur for at least some. Whether for all and whether there are degrees of punishment (e.g. the Bible mentions the "lowest hell" in Deuteronomy 32:22 and Psalms 86:13) is of course debatable.

I personally believe there will be a complicated, individual-specific judgment of punishments and rewards at the end, with distinctions in punishments and rewards. I'm not a believer in a one-size-fits-all, go-directly-to-the-lake-of-fire-for-eternity, equal-punishment-for-everybody kind of scenario. But it does seem pretty clear that eternal punishment of some kind will exist, thus why I accepted the debate.
Posted by TheodoretheMan 2 years ago
TheodoretheMan
I personally believe it would be idiotic to take the bible literally in these verses, and to believe that an all loving god could cast his own children that made mistakes here in a short life would have to be punished forever in flames. Catholics apparently do though... (Not all Christians are Catholics, for those of you who don't know.)
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