The Instigator
FritzStammberger
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
1Devilsadvocate
Con (against)
Winning
19 Points

If the Bible is true and accurate then Jesus Is Lord (God)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
1Devilsadvocate
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/16/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,010 times Debate No: 29258
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
Votes (6)

 

FritzStammberger

Pro

If the Bible is true and accurate then Jesus Is Lord (God).

John 14:7-10 [7]"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8]"Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." " [9]"Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? "[10]"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 ""I and the Father are one."
John 14:11 "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 10:37-38 [37]"Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38]"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:11 " I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
1Devilsadvocate

Con

Answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. ( Mark 12:29)

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good"except God alone." (Mark 10:18)

Luke 22:41-44 :
(41) Then He distanced himself from them about a stone throw away, then he knelt down to pray dab his words: (42)
"O my Father, if you are willing, take this cup than me, but not my will but thy will, that
terjad, (43) Then an angel from heaven appeared to him to give strength unto Him (44) He was very frightened and prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like blood dots bertetesan to the ground.

John 14:28 - Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I."

Hebrews 2:9 says that Jesus was made for a while "lower than the angels" at the Incarnation.

John 17:3 - "And this is eternal life, that they know You are the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

John 20:17 - "I ascend to My Father and to your Father, My God and to your God."

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 20:16-18 :

"I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge, and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will, but the will of Him who sent me" (John 5:30)

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
Debate Round No. 1
FritzStammberger

Pro

"For if you confess with your lips that JESUS IS LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 10:9

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matthew 28:18-20

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus"every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD to the glory of God the Father."
Philippians 2:9-11.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I AM HE. "Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me,"
Isaiah 43:10.

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." John 8:24,

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!"
John 8:58,
See Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." "

"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."
John 13:19,

"So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied."
Luke 23:3,

"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
John 8:12,

"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus,"
Titus 2:13

"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ:"
2 Peter 1:1

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
1Devilsadvocate

Con

Pro has not been able to refute my arguments.

Now, you might say, I didn't refute his.

The thing is that pro as instigator has BOP.
So long as there are outstanding arguments showing that Jesus cannot be god, it cannot be said that Jesus is god, even if there are verses that seem to say he is.

I do want to make a general point that answers up a lot of pros' verses.

The word "lord" does not always mean god.

It refers to master, Teacher, & even functions as mister / sir.

Take for example the story of Abraham when he sees nomads passing by he refers to them as lord:

2 "Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by." (Genesis 18)

& Then in the next chapter when they come to lot, he too calls them lord:
"My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant"s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." (Genesis 19 : 2)

& again:

"But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please!" "(Genesis 19 : 18)

----------------------------------------------------

Jacob to Esau:
"Please, my lord, go ahead of your servant. We will follow slowly, at a pace that is comfortable for the livestock and the children. I will meet you at Seir."" (Genesis 33:14)

---------------------------------------

King David was refereed to as lord:
"Then let me return again to die in my own town, where my father and mother are buried. But here is your servant, my son Kimham. Let him go with my lord the king and receive whatever you want to give him." (2 Samuel 19:37)

"Let your servant return, that I may die in my own town near the tomb of my father and mother. But here is your servant Kimham. Let him cross over with my lord the king. Do for him whatever pleases you." (2 Samuel 19:37)

-------------------------

The prophet Elijah was refereed to as lord:

"As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, "Is it really you, my lord Elijah?" (1 Kings 18:7)

"And sons of the prophets who are in Beth-El come out unto Elisha, and say unto him, 'Hast thou known that to-day Jehovah is taking thy lord from thy head?' and he saith, 'I also have known -- keep silent.'"(2 kings 2:3)

--------------------------

Thus the verses calling Jesus lord, need not mean that he is god.
Debate Round No. 2
FritzStammberger

Pro

your example of "lords" are all small l, Jesus is capitol L.

Thus

Jesus is Lord.
1Devilsadvocate

Con

Pro has not even attempted to explain the verses I brought, which show that Jesus is not god.
Thus one cannot conclude that Jesus is the son of god (Nor can they conclude that he isn't), since there are verses that clearly says that he is not.
Thus the resolution does not stand, since these verses remain contradicting it.

With regard to the lord issue, it's really irrelevant, since the resolution was not defended.
But I will point out that in the original language the word for lord is used both ways, to refer to god as well as those cases which clearly referred to man, both used the same word. Thus it is up to interpretation which lord is meant. The translators chose one way, but it can be translated differently.

To sum it up, on the basis of this debate, one cannot conclude that Jesus is god, since there are verses that contradict that, & thus the resolution has not been proved, since there are still outstanding verses which contradict the resolution.
Pro the instigator has thus not fulfilled his burden of proof.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by FritzStammberger 4 years ago
FritzStammberger
There is a consistent pattern on debate.org that I am beginning to see. Who ever ACTUALLY wins the debate "loses" according to the votes and whoever ACTUALLY loses the debate wins according to the votes. This is not just my debates but I notice this in many others as well.
Posted by FritzStammberger 4 years ago
FritzStammberger
Colossians 1:2 " To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

""1 Thessalonians 1:1 " Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Gracebe unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

""2 Thessalonians 1:1 " Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

""2 Thessalonians 1:2 " Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

""2 Thessalonians 1:12 " That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

""1 Timothy 5:21 " I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

""2 Timothy 4:1 " I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

""2 Timothy 4:22 " The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

""Titus 1:4 " To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, andpeace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

""Philemon 1:3 " Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

""James 1:1 " James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

""2 John 1:3 " Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Posted by FritzStammberger 4 years ago
FritzStammberger
Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Posted by FritzStammberger 4 years ago
FritzStammberger
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Where did you get your gospel of Jesus?

was it from the people who he hand selected?

or was it "an angel from heaven" 600 years later?

answer this timou.
Posted by timou 4 years ago
timou
Jesus is prophet without father; try this

Adam is son of father= servent fo God
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

father of Jesus is our father. so Jesus have no real father(parent) because father =God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

translation made christians lost. i'm su you will close your eyes on my proofs .
islam came to show truth , Jesus is prophet without father. Quran is last book of God.bible and torah are corrupted.
Posted by devient.genie 4 years ago
devient.genie
timou, is very obviously delusional and out of his mind according to the christians, and the christians are obviously very delsuional to timou.

Interesting how youre all delusional. There's talk of it in True Scripture :)

Brainiacs 11:4--Hey religious kids, did you realize that singling out and calling the morons (second 'm' left out for flavor), catholics, jehovahs witness, islam, shamans, jewish or any other belief, calling them ridiculous or a cult while youre embracing another religion, is like someone calling charles manson despicable while writing love letters to jerry sandusky :)

CaptainObvious 9:18--Science shows us how and why the act of cutting an onion sets off the smell and sometimes makes you cry. Religious doctrine shows us how and why the act of cutting a person is OK even if sometimes it makes them cry :)

CryBabies 8:11--We make all these claims that humans are weak and humans are not smart enough and strong enough to live in a world without the belief in a holy binky or savior, that is nothing short of condescending and insulting to mankind :)

CaptainObvious 11:38--Either god made childbirth painful for women because eve ate the apple, or childbirth is naturally painful. Believing the latter is your logic and reason speaking, believing the former is what makes you delusional :)

DUH 8:13--Claiming to be a person of logic and reason while also claiming to be a person of religious faith, is as delusional as the #1 Yankees fan wearing Red Sox gear and claiming to be the #1 Yankees fan :)

DevientGenie 8:8--The correct term for the Genies scripture is, Poetic Incorrectness, because although the true scripture is poetic in its use of the truth, its currently considered not nice to simoultaniously make fun of the holy binky :)

WAKEUP 11:3--Its called brainwashing for a reason, the right amount and it sometimes works, and tax exempt church leaders relish in the effects :)
Posted by zgb1997 4 years ago
zgb1997
Timou..the Qur'an is not to be considered evidence or scientific proof. It is a book of religiol which is a personal matter and not based on evidence. I could quote the Bible, the Torah, or the Lolcatz Bible and claim it's scientific evidence while the Qur'an is corrupted at the same time.
Posted by timou 4 years ago
timou
http://quran.com...

quran gave secret of 2 seas not mixed . quran is from 1400 years ago

http://quran.com...

explication under photo
http://www.facebook.com...
------------------------------
other miracles
http://www.facebook.com...
------------------------------
http://www.facebook.com...
---------------------------------

at year 600,if someone is in coma , will he survive? no, because he can't eat.(there is no way to keep him alive).

in quran ,Allah talk about some people that he made them sleeping many years then he wake them up. what is interesting ? this, when they are slept, angels move their bodies to the left and to the right.
http://quran.com...
"we turn them to left and to right"
for complete http://quran.com...

at present day:
when someone is in coma,what nurse do to him ? read
<< The nursing staff will move the patient every 2"3 hours from side to side and depending on the state of consciousness sometimes to a chair.>>

search word "nursing" in this site http://en.wikipedia.org... and you will find it.
how quran knew smthg that it is impossible to know it at year 600 ? quran is from Allah .
Posted by timou 4 years ago
timou
1Devilsadvocate
i have scientific proofs ,i'm sure ou will never answer on it and you will run away ,all do same .
will you answer on it one by one ?
----------
http://www.sciencedaily.com...
iron came from stars
God said in Quran:"we sent it down"
http://quran.com...

---------------------------
http://quran.com... quran said that montains move .when this discovred?

---------------------------
bible found in turkey and video
http://english.alarabiya.net...
video of that bible

---------------------------
quran wasn't written on paper,it was memorized
i have article about words repition in quran
http://www.facebook.com...
---------------------------
The lowest point on dry land on earth
i will show you from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org...
=========>
quran said ;"romain lose against persiens in the lowest land, then after years they will win"
if we see history,we will find that romains lose in the same place that it is the lowest pont in land on earth
http://quran.com...
+
"they will win": it is prediction
http://en.wikipedia.org...
it happen !
----------------------------
http://quran.com...
Does man think that We will not assemble his bones?Yes. [We are] Able [even] to proportion his fingertips.
----------------------------------
miracle with russian muslim kid

-------------------------------------
frensh searcher become muslim after his descover.quran said smthg that bible didn't said:
http://anti-brainwash.overblog.com...
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
Sounds like you've been brainwashed timou.
Why do you think that the book they found is really as old as they claim?

Where does it say mohamed, mhnbe, in the torah.
That's simply a lie.

Would you like to debate this?
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by jh1234l 4 years ago
jh1234l
FritzStammberger1DevilsadvocateTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Counter BornOKTheFirstTime, you need to show why con wins.
Vote Placed by BornOKTheFirstTime 4 years ago
BornOKTheFirstTime
FritzStammberger1DevilsadvocateTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con wins hands down.
Vote Placed by The_Master_Riddler 4 years ago
The_Master_Riddler
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Reasons for voting decision: dropped arguments
Vote Placed by Deadlykris 4 years ago
Deadlykris
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Reasons for voting decision: The premise begins, "if the bible is true and accurate." This means that, regardless of actual fact, this assertion must be taken as fact for the purposes of the debate. Con's arguments failed to sway my opinion on the matter. However, as burden of proof falls upon Pro, and Pro failed to rebut all of Con's points, arguments goes to Con. It is my personal opinion that the bible is neither true nor accurate.
Vote Placed by likespeace 4 years ago
likespeace
FritzStammberger1DevilsadvocateTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Both sides presented evidence for their interpretation. However, Instigator/Pro has the burden of proof, and didn't even attempt to rebut Con's points, so Con wins.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
FritzStammberger1DevilsadvocateTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This was hardly even a debate. I'm not voting for anyone because it was so stupid. Edit: Might as well give Con arguments.