The Instigator
Jikpamu
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points
The Contender
voxprojectus
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

If the Bible was written by ancient goat herders, is it still relevant for today in 2014?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Jikpamu
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/18/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,148 times Debate No: 56799
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (1)

 

Jikpamu

Pro

*5 Points being made in this first argument and they are numbered 1 - 5 : )

Daniel 8:13-14, 26 and Antiochus IV Epiphanes

1) Establishing the 360 Day Prophetic Year:

Revelation 11:2-3 (NIV 2011)

(2) But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

(3) And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

1260/42 = 30 * 12 = 360 Day Prophetical Years

There is also an example of this concept in Genesis 7:11,8:3-4 and Daniel 12:11-12.

2) Establishing Days as Years in Daniel:

Daniel 9:24-25 (NIV 2011)

(24) "Seventy "sevens" are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

(25) "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens," and sixty-two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

[Side Note]: See also Matthew 18:21-22 re: 70 sevens or weeks and Jesus' forgiving 70 times seven

http://www.khouse.org...

This includes a mathematical prophecy. As we have noted in previous articles, the Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year; 69 WEEKS OF 360-DAY YEARS totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days.

The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.

This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D. When we examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day!

(See Zechariah 9:9 in reference to Palm Sunday)

3) Daniel 8:14 and 2300 days (years)

Daniel 8:13-14 (NIV 2011)

(13) Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled"the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

(14) He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

25 Kislev or December 25, 168BC = Antiochus IV Epiphanes defiles the Jewish Temple

http://www.mathsisfun.com... = 365.242375 day years

360 * 2300 = 828000 days or 2266.987778 Gregorian Years

828000 - (166*365.242375) = 767369.76575 (1/1/167BC - 1/1/1BC)

767369.76575 - (2000 * 365.242375) = 36885.01575 (1/1/1BC - 1/1/2000AD)
^ 1BC - 1AD is one year only

1/1/2000 + 36885.01575 Days = 12/27/2100 [but wait]...Stay tuned for #4

4) Daniel 8:14 and 2300 days (years)

[Continued from #3]...

Calculation was from 1/1/167BC: 7 Days must be corrected for 12/25/168BC

12/27/2100 + 7 Days = Monday, January 03, 2101 or Tevet 2, 5861 AM (Anno Mundi)

*Monday, January 03, 2101 or Tevet 2, 5861 AM is the 8th Day of Chanukah

Daniel 8:26 (NIV 2011) - "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future."

Note Daniel 8:14: This is not the date of the Lord Jesus' return. Only God the Father knows that date. Not even Jesus knows that date.

"Reconsecrated" [Daniel 8:14] means to make or declare sacred again and is being used in the context of the 3rd Jewish Temple which has yet to be built. See Daniel 12:11-12.

5) Monday, January 03, 2101 - Tevet 2, 5861 AM

http://www.jewishpeople.com...

*Monday, January 03, 2101 or Tevet 2, 5861 AM is the 8th Day of Chanukah

2300 (360 day) years EARLIER was 25 Kislev or December 25, 168BC = Antiochus IV Epiphanes defiles the Jewish Temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Hanukkah: a transliteration also romanized as Chanukah or Chanukkah, also known as the Festival of Lights, Feast of Dedication, is an eight-day Jewish holiday commemorating the rededication of the Holy Temple (the Second Temple) in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabean Revolt against the Seleucid Empire of the 2nd century BCE.

Daniel 8:13-14,26 (NIV 2011)

(13) Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled"the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

(14) He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

(26) "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future."
voxprojectus

Con

While I'm a little unclear if you meant to post all 5 points in your first Round entry or if you mean each entry to be a different of the 5 points, I will take up this debate.

I have no specific rebuttal for your first round examples. I will not, and could not argue that literally EVERY part of the bible is relevant to today, but I will argue that many parts are.

As a touchstone for theistic phillosophy, a broad guide to the history of the Middle East, a book to turn to in understanding the role things like translation and cultural differences make in understanding the history of three major religions, and, ironically, a key volume for helping Atheists make their case against religion as a whole, the bible serves many relevant functions.

I note in your opening round you include many quotations but literally no explanation of how they support your claim. if your claim was "Not all parts of the bible are mathematical" you'd be on very solid ground, but these quotes neither prove that the bible's many authors were goat-herders, nor explains how every other part of the bible has no relevence in 2014.

I hope you will expand on these themes in round 2.

And thank you for the debate, even if your ancestors were Goat-herders.
Debate Round No. 1
Jikpamu

Pro

Voxprojectus: Unfortunately I could not be less winded in my initial argument. I took 5 points in step, one proving the next, to present my initial case. If you would be so kind as to reread it. There are 5 numbered points which I make. I use advanced date calculations including for leap years in a spreadsheet to prove my point. Here is the next part of my case as to whether the Bible is still relevant in 2014:

Calculating a 1000 Years beyond January 3, 2101AD (8th Day of Chanukah)

360 * 1000 = 360000 or 985.6468598 Gregorian Years

Monday, January 3, 2101AD + 360000 days = Friday, August 27, 3086AD

Friday, August 27, 3086AD = Av 26, 6846 AM (Anno Mundi)

http://www.jewishpeople.com...

The very next day: Saturday, August 28, 3086AD or Av 27, 6846 AM is Re'eh

http://en.wikipedia.org...'eh (Google Re'eh in wikipedia as the link does not work properly within debate.org)

Re'eh, Reeh, R'eih, or Ree (Hebrew for "see", the first word in the parashah) is the 47th weekly Torah portion (parashah) in the annual Jewish cycle of Torah reading and the fourth in the book of Deuteronomy.

It constitutes Deuteronomy 11:26-16:17. The parashah is the longest weekly Torah portion in the book of Deuteronomy (although not in the Torah), and is made up of 7,442 Hebrew letters, 1,932 Hebrew words, and 126 verses, and can occupy about 258 lines in a Torah Scroll (Sefer Torah). (Parashah Naso is the longest in the Torah.)

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 (NIV 2011)
(26) See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse"
(27) the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;
(28) the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

Reference Revelation for the Thousand Years:

Revelation 20:1-3,7-8 (NIV 2011)
(1) And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
(2) He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
(3) He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
(7) When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
(8) and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth"Gog and Magog"and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
voxprojectus

Con

So help me to break your argument down a little, don't just launch into more sources and quotations, answer my questions

1) Establishing the 360 Day Prophetic Year:

Revelation 11:2-3 (NIV 2011)

So let me see if I can get at your point here? Are you saying that the bible says we have a 360-day year (and your quote from revelation supports this) and that this is no longer relevant because we use a different 365 day calander? Is that your point?

OH, or hang on a second, are you making an OVERALL point that the time-span the bible makes predictions about has already elapsed and these are five textual references showing that if the bible were accurate we would never have made it to 2014?

If so, that's an interesting point, but seems to have almost nothing to do with what this debate is supposed to be about. Where does "Goat-Herding" come into it?
Debate Round No. 2
Jikpamu

Pro

Voxprojectus: My point on the 360 day calendar is that was the prophetical calendar used in the Bible and is the basis for much of my date calculations. My first two arguments are about prophecy and things that will take place. My point is that Bible prophecy is so accurate and so sophisticated that it takes computing power combined with the power of the internet to unravel it's secrets : )

Now to my next argument for stating my case that Ancient Goat-herders could not have thought this up:

*3 Points are being made in this post : )

1) Prophet Nathan Leal on America and "Babylon"

Jeremiah 39:2-3 (NIV 2011) [About the Fall of Jerusalem]

(2) And on the NINTH DAY of the FOURTH MONTH of Zedekiah"s ELEVENTH YEAR, the city wall was broken through.

(3) Then all the officials of the king of Babylon came and took seats in the Middle Gate: NERGAL-Sharezer of Samgar, Nebo-Sarsekim a chief officer, NERGAL-Sharezer a high official and all the other officials of the king of Babylon.

http://www.watchmanscry.com...

Moving forward from the date of September 11, 2001 and using the calculation found in the verse above (Jeremiah 39:2)

1. September 11, 2001 + 11 years = September 11, 2012
2. September 11, 2012 + 4 months = January 11, 2013
3. January 11, 2013 + 9 days = January 20, 2013

January 20, 2013 happens to be the same day as the Presidential Inauguration!

http://en.wikipedia.org...

[In Regards to Verse 3 and "Nergal"] According to Collin de Plancy and Johann Weyer, Nergal was depicted as the chief of Hell's "secret police", and worked as an "an honorary spy in the service of Beelzebub".

Nathan Leal: President Obama was inaugurated twice in January 2013. Notice "Nergal" is mentioned twice in verse 3.

Jikpamu: When was the last time the NSA made the news? You're probably using their browser "Chrome" and search engine "Google" right now:

http://www.theatlantic.com...

2) Prophet Nathan Leal on Nergal and "NOON"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Nergal actually seems to be in part a solar deity, sometimes identified with Shamash, but only a representative of a certain phase of the sun.

Portrayed in hymns and myths as a god of war and pestilence, Nergal seems to represent the sun of NOONTIME and of the summer solstice that brings destruction, high summer being the dead season in the Mesopotamian annual cycle.

http://www.watchmanscry.com...

Based on the profile that has been uncovered about the demonic spirit Nergal, one of his attributes appears to be that he is a "god of the NOON-TIME."

When we consider that this entity seems to favor invocation during HIGH NOON, I find it interesting that Obama"s Inauguration Ceremony is taking place at 12 NOON on January 20, 2013, (as per the [20th] amendment of the U.S. Constitution.) - [Nathan Leal said 22nd but it is the 20th]

As I have been pondering this question, it suddenly hit me! Obama is going to have two Inauguration Ceremonies! The second one will occur the next day on Monday January 21, 2013. Based on the announced schedule for the Inaugural Ceremony of the 21st, the festivities will begin at 11:30 AM Eastern.

20th Amendment - Section 1: (Source: http://www.law.cornell.edu...)

The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at NOON on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at NOON on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

Jeremiah 39:3 (NIV 2011) - Then all the officials of the king of Babylon came and took seats in the Middle Gate: NERGAL-Sharezer of Samgar, Nebo-Sarsekim a chief officer, NERGAL-Sharezer a high official and all the other officials of the king of Babylon.

3) Prophet Nathan Leal on Beelzebub

http://en.wikipedia.org...

According to Collin de Plancy and Johann Weyer, Nergal was depicted as the chief of Hell's "secret police", and worked as an "an honorary spy in the service of Beelzebub".

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The source for the name Beelzebub is in 2 Kings 1:2-3, 6, 16. Ba"al Zəb"b is variously understood to mean "LORD OF THE FLIES".

2 Kings 1:2-3 (NIV 2011)

(2) Now Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria and injured himself. So he sent messengers, saying to them, "Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury."

(3) But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, "Go up and meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and ask them, "Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going off to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?"

Can this really be? Remember this?

http://www.theblaze.com...
voxprojectus

Con

voxprojectus forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Jikpamu

Pro

Voxprojectus: did you give up already? : )

*5 Points are being made in this post

RE: "The Harbinger" by Author Jonathan Cahn

1) Shemitah and 29 Elul

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The sabbath year (shmita Hebrew, literally "release") also called the sabbatical year or sheviit (HebrewR06;, literally "seventh") is the seventh year of the seven-year agricultural cycle mandated by the Torah for the Land of Israel, and still observed in contemporary Judaism.

According to the laws of shmita, land owned by Jews in the Land of Israel is left unfarmed. The law does not apply to land in the Diaspora. In Biblical times any naturally growing produce was left to be taken by poor people, passing strangers, and beasts of the field. While naturally growing produce such as grapes growing on existing vines can be harvested, it cannot be sold or used for commercial purposes; it must be given away or consumed.

PERSONAL DEBTS ARE CONSIDERED FORGIVEN AT SUNSET ON THE 29TH OF ELUL. Since this aspect of shmita is not dependent on the land, it applies to Jews both in Israel and elsewhere.

2) 17 Sept 2001 (29 Elul)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The destruction of the Twin Towers and other properties caused serious damage to the economy of Lower Manhattan and had a significant effect on global markets, closing Wall Street until September 17.

http://cnnfn.cnn.com...

NEW YORK (CNNfn) - U.S. stocks plunged to their lowest levels in nearly three years Monday, and the Dow Jones industrial average suffered its worst point-loss in history as trading resumed for the first time following last week's terrorist attacks.

3) 29 Sept 2008 (29 Elul)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

2008 " Following the bankruptcies of Lehman Brothers and Washington Mutual, The Dow Jones Industrial Average falls 777.68 points, the largest single-day point loss in its history.

http://money.cnn.com...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Stocks skidded Monday, with the Dow slumping nearly 778 points, in the biggest single-day point loss ever, after the House rejected the government's $700 billion bank bailout plan.

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market.

4) 13 Sept 2015 (29 Elul) - Sunday

http://www.wnd.com...

While Cahn prefers not to speculate on what, if anything, might befall America on Sept. 13, 2015, it will be the next Shmitah year " which occurs on Elul 29 every seven years on the Hebrew calendar. It is a time when debts are to be forgiven and the land, in the agricultural communities of ancient Israel were to be given a rest.

Farah believes the date Sept. 13, 2015 bears close watching " though he is quick to admit he has no idea what, if anything, will happen in America.

It"s also worth noting that Elul 29, 2015, represents the eve of the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Hashana at sundown.

Cahn says he has since found nine harbingers that tie the problems America has experienced beginning Sept. 11, 2001, to parallels that led to the destruction of ancient Israel.

Jikpamu: It is worth noting that a Partial Solar Eclipse is scheduled for 13 Sept 2015 (29 Elul).

5) Theme Bible Verse for "The Harbinger" by Author Jonathan Cahn

Isaiah 9:10 (NASB 95)

"The bricks have fallen down,
But we will rebuild with smooth stones;
The sycamores have been cut down,
But we will replace them with cedars."
voxprojectus

Con

voxprojectus forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Jikpamu

Pro

In this 5th and final round I was going to talk about the Illuminati and the Number 11 and also Torah Curses America is experiencing from Deuteronomy Chapter 28 because of our disobedience to God's Holy Torah.

However on Saturday evening, 6/21/2014, God revealed a verse (Ecclesiastes 10:9) in relation to Jonathan Cahn's Book "The Harbinger" and it's theme verse (Isaiah 9:10). I am NOT kidding in what I am about to present to you...

Theme Bible Verse for "The Harbinger" by Author Jonathan Cahn:

Isaiah 9:10 (NASB 95)

"The bricks have fallen down,
But we will rebuild with smooth stones;
The sycamores have been cut down,
But we will replace them with cedars."

Take a look at this verse which God revealed to me last night (6/21/2014):

Ecclesiastes 10:9 (NASB 95)
"He who quarries stones may be hurt by them,
and he who splits logs may be endangered by them."

Isaiah 9:10 from the book "The Harbinger" and Ecclesiastes 10:9 are very similar in content and the chapters/verses are reversed across books.

Isaiah 9:10 is supposed to be in reference to America and the Judgment that befell the ancient kingdom of Israel when they ignored God"s call for them to repent and were thus conquered by the Assyrians according to Author Jonathan Cahn of "The Harbinger".

Jikpamu: All I know is this: if America get"s judged by God and conquered by one of her enemies powerful enough to do that like Russia and/or China then we as Christian Americans cannot presuppose that we won"t be adversely affected too since we live in the country being conquered.

I personally believe 9-11 was a wake up call for America that we have not heeded and took place nearly 13 long years ago of which in those 13 years we have done nothing as a nation but further aggravate the God of our ancestors (Jesus) by participating in abortion, homosexuality, gay marriage, sexual immorality, divorce, and evolution.

With that said, we are called as Christians to present God's message and let Him do the rest (plant and water seeds while God makes those seeds grow). We are called to be faithful with no regard for our lives. Our only aim is to be for Jesus. I am trying to shoot for that mark : )

Would you like to know Jesus Christ: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob part of a Three Person Trinity/Godhead for the salvation of your soul? If you wish to commit your life to Jesus then do the following:

1) Believe that Jesus is the Son of God

2) Believe that He died for you and your sins, and rose to life on the third day

3) Ask Him for forgiveness of your sins

4) Put your trust in Him over your entire life

5) Commit your entire life to Him...

Romans 10:9 (HCSB) - If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Repent now to Jesus before it's too late for you. Submit to Jesus' Authority in your life.

Everyone have a great day!! : )

Voxprojectus: you get the last word before voting on the truth of this debate begins...

[This Debate is in the Science Category]: If the Bible was written by ancient goat herders, is it still relevant for today in 2014?

Could ancient goat herders really have thought all this up without inspiration from God Who claims this Bible as His Holy Book?

Remember: the Bible, 66 Books by 40 Authors written over a period of 1500 years and (I believe) inspired by God...

1 Corinthians 4:20 (NIV 2011) - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.
voxprojectus

Con

voxprojectus forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Jikpamu 2 years ago
Jikpamu
Just look at my date calculations and my Bible-reasoning for them...
Posted by voxprojectus 2 years ago
voxprojectus
People who are reading this debate, help me out? Am I crazy or is he just posting numbers and bible verses without connecting them to any points?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
JikpamuvoxprojectusTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.