The Instigator
laker7745
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
Jifpop09
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

If there is another civil war likely North vs South who wins? I say South.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Jifpop09
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/14/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,565 times Debate No: 45982
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (2)

 

laker7745

Pro

I want someone to explain to me why they think the North would win, being from the north myself it is common knowledge that Southerners are not only more passionate and loving of America but are more religious and to be quite honest many see them as better people, they almost won the first Civil War with half of what the North had and the only reason the North won was population and manufacturing capability, so now the population is about even and the manufacturing capability leans toward the south, I don;t see anyway the North could stop a split and honestly, the South would have more American values than the North would with the way things are going.
Jifpop09

Con

I accept under these conditions.

-Southern states will comprise of all states that are republican and have strong christian society's. This will include the historic southern states and central states.
-Northern states will comprise of the northeast,midwest,pacific states, Nevada, and Florida. All these states are primarily liberal,democratic, and are not influenced much by theological laws.

Civil War will be defined as a conflict to replace the current government.

If any of these rules you disagree with, pm me.
Debate Round No. 1
laker7745

Pro

Seems fair with the exception of Michigan which has gone considerably right in recent years. So first off lets look at history, in the first Civil War, the South made it deep into the North and almost won the whole thing, however, it did not have the population nor the industrial capability of the North and therefore it in the end could not compete. Then we move to the modern era, with the invention of air-conditioning many people moved south, and economically the Southern states are much better off economically, the production capability is leaning toward a Southern advantage, and the population is relatively the same.
Jifpop09

Con

I will include Michigan because it is considered a democrat state and no longer classified as a battleground. It is also religiously diverse with a high amount of indepenents and liberals.

In the first Civil War, the South made it deep into the North and almost won the whole thing.


This is false. Robert E Lees Grand Strategy was to invade the slave states that stayed with the union, in hopes of swaying them to join the confederacy, in order to create a buffer zone between the confederates and the Union Army. Both invasionsinto Union territory ended disastrously for Lee. Having lost any of the little advancements he had made into union territory, Lee was forced to fight a defensive strategy. Which resulted in Tecumseh Shermans counter attack.

http://upload.wikimedia.org...

Then we move to the modern era, with the invention of air-conditioning many people moved south, and economically the Southern states are much better off economically, the production capability is leaning toward a Southern advantage, and the population is relatively the same.

Central States - These are some of our poorest states, and are surrounded by Union States to the East and West. They rely heavily on resources from the midwest, and their survival would rely heavily on supply shipments. For these states to survive, the hypothetical confederate army would have to divert much needed troops and supplies to protect these vunurable states.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu...;


Population- Given the Fact that Florida, the west coast,midwest, and north east were all consiered union territory, the union population surpasses that of the confederate population of today.

Infrastructure:
Midwest- The midwest is the hub of the American auto industry and prouctive farmlands. It has become the center of American industry, and many nations have a reliance on food from the midwest. Including the central and southern states. The midwest also has the largest fresh water reserves, which are needed desperately in texas and other confederate states.

West Coast- The west Coast has a huge population, easily capable of advancing against the weaker confederate statesthe east, like New Mexico. California also has the largest economy of any of the states, which is a huge union advantage.

Florida- Florida has huge tactical advantaage to the union,as it has a huge population and many military establishments. It is an extremely wealth state located on a narrow, defensible, position beneath the confederacy.

North East- The Northeast is no doubt the industrial epicenter of the US. These states are extremely wealthy, and have a population capable of creating a large army. They are densly compacted, making it hard to break past defensie lines.

Thanks you, and that was round 1!
Debate Round No. 2
laker7745

Pro

First off Michigan no that is by and large Republican, Republican House, Republican Senate, Republican Governor and is looking like its going to elect its first Republican US Senator in many years, I know this, the only Democratic thing is who was elected as President and most of those votes were carried by Wayne County.

Ok, I did not by any means say why Robert E. Lee was in the North because as we all know the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was a free state so he had no intention of persuading them. The man made it deep into the Union, lets honestly sit back and look at the facts. Had it not been for manpower and production the South wins the American Civil War. At last check, going past Washington D.C., through Maryland and into Pennsylvania is a little more than small advances.

In reference to the military installations in Florida, this is largely irrelevant a simple look at the most recent Gallup poll has the Military Approval Rating of Obama at 37%... 37% is not going to win you a war. Obama and the North need an Army and when the South is offering the exact opposite of what the North has, which nowadays is the blatant lack of moral values, decline in American values and overall what the Democratic party is spearheading we see that the North would not have them on there side and with 29 Air Force bases alone spread throughout what would be the "Red States" and that's in addition to 16 Marine and Navy Bases that are spread throughout this also, and that is needless to say you do in fact have the support of some military you don't outnumber the South by any means. In fact Florida would be surrounded so it would be rendered useless.

When we go to manufacturing the South has a huge industrial base now in the form of automobile factories, and electronics, it has the same manufacturing base that the North had and the North, well as we know has declined in its manufacturing capacity with the only state that has seen significant recovery being Michigan, with a large population and the Largest 5 Branch Military Base in the World for the US it has a huge advantage, and you see the population doesn't matter when the people don't want to fight. As we all know liberals aren't known to be fighters they only talk loud and hope others don't respond, tolerance, tolerance, until someone doesn't agree so don't forget that you would probably see a large influx of the rich moving to Red States if Civil War did happen as we all know many wealthy are conservative.

In conclusion for this round, you need military support just because the state is Democrat your probably not going to have the military support there if the recent poll is any indication, the Blue states would be in trouble.
Jifpop09

Con

First off Michigan no that is by and large Republican, Republican House, Republican Senate, Republican Governor and is looking like its going to elect its first Republican US Senator in many years, I know this, the only Democratic thing is who was elected as President and most of those votes were carried by Wayne County.

Well I would say Michigan is democrat, because that is what the majority of citizena vote. They even had a women governor. Definitely Democrat. Plus, it's surrounded by Union states, so it would not likely join the confederacy anyways.


Ok, I did not by any means say why Robert E. Lee was in the North because as we all know the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania was a free state so he had no intention of persuading them. The man made it deep into the Union, lets honestly sit back and look at the facts.

No, but this was another attempt at persuasion. He thought that having a massive confederate victory in union territory would convince american senators of the cost of war too high enough. Obviously, he failed in doing so.

At last check, going past Washington D.C., through Maryland and into Pennsylvania is a little more than smalladvances.

As soon as confrontation happened though, they were turned back.

In reference to the military installations in Florida, this is largely irrelevant a simple look at the most recent Gallup poll has the Military Approval Rating of Obama at 37%... 37% is not going to win you a war.

Since when was this civil war about Obama and where is your source? I was sure the civil war was democrat vs republican. Even though the military may not be 100% blue, that does not mean they would turn.


In fact Florida would be surrounded so it would be rendered useless.

It is a peninsula. It might be blockaded, but many of our strongest naval bases are situated in blue states. It would force the confederates to redirect a front to the florida peninsula, which is a disadvantage.

When we go to manufacturing the South has a huge industrial base now in the form of automobile factories, and electronics, it has the same manufacturing base that the North had and the North, well as we know has declined in its manufacturing capacity with the only state that has seen significant recovery being Michigan, with a large population and the Largest 5 Branch Military Base in the World for the US it has a huge advantage, and you see the population doesn't matter when the people don't want to fight.

I am starting to sense you are from Michigan. Anyways, the north still has a larger industrial output then the south. Have you ever been to Ohio or New Jersey. Those are the smelliest and industilized places in America. Indiana, New york, and California also are extremely industrial. In summary, the midwest and the north east are loaded with rich agriculture and industry. In regards to auto industry, that is centered in Michigan, a predominantly blue state.

http://www.infoplease.com...

http://www.netstate.com...;


As we all know liberals aren't known to be fighters they only talk loud and hope others don't respond, tolerance, tolerance, until someone doesn't agree so don't forget that you would probably see a large influx of the rich moving to Red States if Civil War did happen as we all know many wealthy are conservative.

I did not realize how bias my opponent was until now. My opponent has not used sufficient arguments advocating that the red states would win. The arguments he did make, were too illogical to consider. His potrayal that the south would win, because they have better religious values, is silly. Here is a secret my friend, the bible condenms any form of killing. My opponent relied on Michigan way too much in trying to prove his point, when he could of fucused on many other pressing issues. Such as the southern, western, and eastern fronts surrounding the confederate states. He gave no strategy, or plan of action, on how these states would win, besides stating that they are largely industrial. If you feel his arguments were not good enough, vote con.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Jifpop09 2 years ago
Jifpop09
I don't know what he is talking about. Michigan is moderate with a tendency to vote democrat.
Posted by Speed6033 3 years ago
Speed6033
North Koreans have no contact to the outside world. They only thing they know is that Americans are bad, and they never left North Korea, besides, you are not allowed on the internet if you were North Korean, if you did by internet, you would only be able to go on the sites that the government has setup for you.
Posted by laker7745 3 years ago
laker7745
Doesn't make much sense to say I'm being biased by bringing in Republicans vs Democrats that's what Red and Blue is, and no like I said before the only Democratic thing Michigan has ever voted for is President it is by and large conservative and Republican, in addition it's true Democrats are liberals and don't want to fight, that is not biased at all, they just cause issues, and yes the military is not goin to fight for a cause it knows is against what they want, so don't expect to have to much support or and by the way here is the poll numbers of there opinion of Obama a Democrat President: http://www.gallup.com...
Posted by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
Good point Jif. As a result of this guy getting religious the north may have a chance this time.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
Yes that is what I'm doing, as this is the most likely scenario. I justify it by him saying strong christian values. Florida is also a battleground state. It changes each year. It is mostly democrat though.
Posted by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
You give him Florida and he rewrites history and the south loses.
Posted by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
Don't give him Florida laker. They have more nuclear missiles and better military bases.
Posted by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
Florida is a red state
Posted by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
Jifpop if you're redefining north and south it should be red state vs blue state.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
I have to wait 10 minutes to accept this, so no one take it.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by donald.keller 3 years ago
donald.keller
laker7745Jifpop09Tied
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Total points awarded:42 
Reasons for voting decision: First of all... I have to take points from Con... Badly. This is NOT about Democratic states verses Republican States... This is solidly NORTH v SOUTH. Defining the words the way Con did is completely contradictory of the Resolution. I can't enter a Europe v Asia debate, define Asia as being any area with cheap labor... As for sources, Con defended his position while Pro didn't flip a single source.
Vote Placed by Wylted 3 years ago
Wylted
laker7745Jifpop09Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con put up a good argument for why the north would likely win this new civil war. Pro have a lot of arguments not relevant to this century and this civil war. The points he did make are well refuted.