The Instigator
tmhustler
Pro (for)
Winning
28 Points
The Contender
theCall
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points

If there is free will than an all knowing god is not possible

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
tmhustler
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/3/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,961 times Debate No: 9126
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (5)

 

tmhustler

Pro

If an all knowing god exist than it must know the past, present, and future
so if this god knows what you will do than you can no longer choose to do anything but what it already knows.
If you are at a stop sign u can choose to go left or right. if this god knows you will go left than you no longer have the free will to right
theCall

Con

Hello to my fellow, what an intellectual and challenging opponent, I am gladly to take this debate.

First of all to know that can human have the free will to choose, let's us all look at Genesis 2:16-17
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

God had given Adam and Eve a test, the simplest test in all His tests for humanity, we can see even though God is a very acrimonious and just God, but God still want to give people free choice to choose, like in this story, to obey God, or to obey earthly temporary knowledge?
but even though God is omnipresent, all knowing and Almighty God, do you think He would ever change His mind because that's a big and important argument in this debate, and to answer this, let's us look at another Genesis

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. "(Genesis 6:6-7)

God REPENTED to created man on earth my friend, God did indeed changed His mind.

And I'll say more in the next argument, thank you, hop to see your argument soon.
Debate Round No. 1
tmhustler

Pro

the test in Eden is a flawed one, if god knows all than he must know the future so before he ever posed this test he knew they would fail. this same argument could be made today. so when you are born god already knows you will go to heaven or hell. does this not negate free will.

now onto your second argument can god change his mind? well the clear answer is no, an all knowing god can by definition not change his mind. this is true because he would already know that at that point in time he would have changed his mind. This was meant to be a general debate about any all knowing god because of this bible quotes do not hold weight in this debate.

If a god knows what will happen can you choose to do anything but what he already knows.
now I await your explanation as to how free will and an all knowing god can coexist

I thank you for excepting this debate I know the con side of this argument is a difficult one. gl.
theCall

Con

First of all, thank you for my opponent new argument, I apologize for giving a new debate for such a short notice.

"the test in Eden is a flawed one, if god knows all than he must know the future so before he ever posed this test he knew they would fail. this same argument could be made today. so when you are born god already knows you will go to heaven or hell. does this not negate free will."

First of all, God does know the future, that's what different between God and the gods in Greek mythology like Zeus, Poseidon..., God knows the future and control the future, neither fate nor any future can compel Him. But, even though God knows the future does not mean that He will do something or just because He knew Adam and Eve will disobeyed or Satan would rebel Him does not make Him diverse His plan, and does not mean that He will cut any of them out of His plan or kill them, no.

"If a god knows what will happen can you choose to do anything but what he already knows.
now I await your explanation as to how free will and an all knowing god can coexist"Second of all, like one of our comment here in this debate(Thank you studentathletechristian8), a mother also know what does her son like or love, what does her son will do in a certain situations, but does that mean the mother is compelling the son's freedom? No my friend, so is God, just because He know what happen next does not mean He will do something to stop us, He gave you free choice to do things, but through lots of people, lots of things, he will inform you like:"That's bad" or "Don't do it, it's against the Bible.", after you have been informed by God, it's your choice now.

"now onto your second argument can god change his mind? well the clear answer is no, an all knowing god can by definition not change his mind. this is true because he would already know that at that point in time he would have changed his mind. This was meant to be a general debate about any all knowing god because of this bible quotes do not hold weight in this debate." I'm sorry for my short knowledge, now let me say it again, God won't change His mind(The Bible can become a great documentary in this debate, and then again, we're debating about God, aren't we?)

"If a god knows what will happen can you choose to do anything but what he already knows.
now I await your explanation as to how free will and an all knowing god can coexist"
Second of all, like one of our comment here in this debate(Thank you studentathletechristian8), a mother also know what does her son like or love, what does her son will do in a certain situations, but does that mean the mother is compelling the son's freedom? No my friend, so is God, just because He know what happen next does not mean He will do something to stop us, He gave you free choice to do things, but through lots of people, lots of things, he will inform you like:"That's bad" or "Don't do it, it's against the Bible.", after you have been informed by God, it's your choice now.

Even though a mother know that her son is doing wrong things, she shall not destroy that son, even though a teacher knows that student won't study, the teacher with all his heart will teach that student the lessons, and even though God knew Lucifer will become a rebellious angel, Adam and Eve will disobey, or right now lots of people will not trust Him, that won't, and I tell you, won't make God stop us from living or cut us from choices and freedom.
Debate Round No. 2
tmhustler

Pro

you seem to have completely missed my argument. my argument was that because god already knew they would Eat the fruit, they were unable to not eat the fruit because if they had god would be wrong and there for not all knowing. This raises the question how can someone be blamed for something they had to do?

I would like to show the audience the comment my opponent was referring to "So what if God knows what you will do? In your own mind, you get to choice what you want to do. God knows the path you will take, but He does not force you along it. The human chooses to do what he/she wants out of his/her own conduct. For example, you know when a mom tells her child not to do something like smash a ball into a window? The mom knows already that the child will do it, but gives the child warning and lets the child chose for himself if he wants to or not. It's relative".{studentathletechristian8} what my opponent does not realize that not only does this not solve my question {how can free will and an all knowing god can coexist?} but actually supports my hypothesis. in his first sentence he states that god knows what we will do. then in the second sentence states that in our minds we have free will. the problem here is that this debate has nothing to do with perceived free will.

"a mother also know what does her son like or love, what does her son will do in a certain situations, but does that mean the mother is compelling the son's freedom?"
this argument is extremely dishonest because the mother does not have absolute knowledge of what her son will do, at best she can know the most likely result would be. so with accord to the parameters of this debate lets assume this mother can see into the future. I will show this example from 2 points of view to illustrate what perceived free will is.
first the mother, knows that in the future he son will stand at a fork in the road he can go left, right, or straight. the mother having absolute knowledge of the future KNOWS her son will turn left, because of this the only outcome is for him to turn left. second the son, the son now stands at the fork in the road to his knowledge there are 3 options. after some thought he{believes he} chose to go left. this is perceived free will because in actuality there is only one option.

now for my opponents final round I would like him to answer the question
If a god knows what will happen can you choose to do anything but what he already knows? yes or no with some elaboration{in his own words}. if he can not manage to give a legitimate answer to this I do not see how he could win this debate.
I would like to remind the voters that this debate is about absolute free will not the perception of it.
finally one of my opponents very own quotes from round 2 supports my hypothesis
"God knows the future and control{s} the future" by future it can be assumed that a person is involved, so if god controls the future how could he not control the actions of the people in that future.
theCall

Con

First of all, thank you for the come back of my opponent

Your topic of the debate was:"If there is free will than an all knowing god is not possible", so if I can proof that my an all knowing God and free will can coexist, then I will win this debate.

"you seem to have completely missed my argument. my argument was that because god already knew they would Eat the fruit, they were unable to not eat the fruit because if they had god would be wrong and there for not all knowing. This raises the question how can someone be blamed for something they had to do?"
Just because God knew the future does not necessarily that God would be involved in their works at all. Just because you know which contestant will become American Idol doesn't mean that you won't watch the final show, right? So is God, Adam and Eve would eat that apple, that was for sure, and that all knowing God knew it ahead of time.

"I would like to show the audience the comment my opponent was referring to "So what if God knows what you will do? In your own mind, you get to choice what you want to do. God knows the path you will take, but He does not force you along it. The human chooses to do what he/she wants out of his/her own conduct. For example, you know when a mom tells her child not to do something like smash a ball into a window? The mom knows already that the child will do it, but gives the child warning and lets the child chose for himself if he wants to or not. It's relative".{studentathletechristian8} what my opponent does not realize that not only does this not solve my question {how can free will and an all knowing god can coexist?} but actually supports my hypothesis. in his first sentence he states that god knows what we will do. then in the second sentence states that in our minds we have free will. the problem here is that this debate has nothing to do with perceived free will."
Like I stated, just because God knows ahead of time does not necessarily mean that He will stop that(though sometimes, He will). God knows does not mean that He will getting involved in your situations, freewill mean that you either choose God or the devil, though He know what you chose but He'll still make that an open choice for you to choose.

"a mother also know what does her son like or love, what does her son will do in a certain situations, but does that mean the mother is compelling the son's freedom?"
this argument is extremely dishonest because the mother does not have absolute knowledge of what her son will do, at best she can know the most likely result would be. so with accord to the parameters of this debate lets assume this mother can see into the future. I will show this example from 2 points of view to illustrate what perceived free will is."

How can't a mother does not know what does her son like or love? If she can't even know that, then that's not a good mother. So is God, God knows what do you do, what you'll choose, like the Bible said "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."(Jeremiah 1:5), but He won't stop you from your freedom, He won't use His power to stop this or that, you have the free will, you have free choices and it's just simply that God knows it all.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by theCall 7 years ago
theCall
Satan, there are no significant signs or evidences that God does not exist, in fact you can't expect a complex, organized universe to be created by their own. If you can believe a big explosion can set the planets in a perfect way, then it's nothing wrong to believe in God, right?
Posted by santanisgreat 7 years ago
santanisgreat
theres no god haha
Posted by tmhustler 7 years ago
tmhustler
sorry for reposting this debate it was my first one. i didnt think you were making a rebuttal
Posted by studentathletechristian8 7 years ago
studentathletechristian8
So what if God knows what you will do? In your own mind, you get to choice what you want to do. God knows the path you will take, but He does not force you along it. The human choses to do what he/she wants out of his/her own conduct. For example, you know when a mom tells her child not to do something like smash a ball into a window? The mom knows already that the child will do it, but gives the child warning and lets the child chose for himself if he wants to or not. It's relative.
Posted by theCall 7 years ago
theCall
I do really want to take this challenge, it's really delicate, elegant, a fertile debate, and I believe the Pro must be an intellectual person.
Posted by KRFournier 7 years ago
KRFournier
There is no choice but for this to be a debate on semantics. Free will is such an ambiguous term and is usually under or over-defined. I'll keep my eye on this debate, but I won't be surprised to see it reduced to a war on definitions.
Posted by haley.debate20 7 years ago
haley.debate20
This is a very beastly debate. I can't wait to see who takes it.
Posted by ToastOfDestiny 7 years ago
ToastOfDestiny
Hyperdang. I'd jump all over this but for the fact I'm in India =/.
Posted by MTGandP 7 years ago
MTGandP
Me too. I thought of a beastly semantics argument. But that wouldn't be polite, now would it?
Posted by Cody_Franklin 7 years ago
Cody_Franklin
I'm very tempted to take this.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by santanisgreat 7 years ago
santanisgreat
tmhustlertheCallTied
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Vote Placed by pokerstar 7 years ago
pokerstar
tmhustlertheCallTied
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Vote Placed by Ragaxus 7 years ago
Ragaxus
tmhustlertheCallTied
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Vote Placed by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
tmhustlertheCallTied
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Vote Placed by tmhustler 7 years ago
tmhustler
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