If you kill someone who was going to kill millions of people ok
Please don't start immediatly with come back.
I want to see if there is certain areas that you can kill someone and still be able to go to heaven (stay by god's rule) if in a scenario a person was going to kill millions but you kill them (you cannot neogotiate with this person)
I say yes in this certain situation you can
First round: Introduction
Second Round: Standing
Third Round: Offense
Fourth Round: Defense
Fifth Round: Conclusion
I look forward to whoever might want to challenge me
AND GOOD LUCK
My name is Omer Farooq and i am studying currently and pursing a master's degree in business management.... i have a very sound knowledge of all the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) so its my request since you have brought God into this debate, please quote the exact verses of the scripture to base your argument upon.......
My only statement now is that you have stated that "kill someone who WAS (and mark my emphasis on was) going to kill millions", well a person is not guilty of a crime in God's eyes until he has committed the act..... Just intent does not makes a person guilty of the crime so killing a person who has not yet acted on his intention to kill others is murder and a crime itself...... i believe you are wise enough to understand what i just wrote.........
lastly please give me a brief introduction about yourself when you write your argument in the second round..... thank you!!!
Thank you for accepting this debate and I look forward to seeing who wins
(I would also like to state that I am a christian not Islamic)
That's very very important to remember so I will only use bible verses
Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.
Draw also the spear and the battle-axe to meet those who pursue me; Say to my soul, "I am your salvation."
From the fruit of a man's mouth he enjoys good, But the desire of the treacherous is violence.
The reason why I chose these verses are because they all state that thinking and going to act on those thoughts are murder already. God also doesn't give a warning to every human but Noah. He does so without seeing the fact that restating himself in human nature may stop the murder.
I will be using only these verses so let's stick to these please.
I am in junior high 8th grade but I am advanced in reading, writing, and typing. Nice to meet ya
It does not matter that you are so young and just in junior high 8th grade. It is my honor to have this debate with you even though you are very younger than me. It may be that you may become a great debater in the future and your speaking power may lead you to become the future president of the U.S.
Son, the verses which you have quoted do not say that thinking and going to act on those thoughts are murder already.
The fist verse which you have of Genesis chap 6 : verse 11-13 clearly states that the earth was corrupt in the sight (eyes) of God and was filled with violence, ( Indicating that bloodshed and oppression was prevalent at the time), for all flesh (humans or mankind) had corrupted their way upon earth. ( here corruption means to disobey the commands of God and follow other things or deities instead of God) God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before me ( indicating that God had decided to punish all humans at the time of Noah for their disobedience) for the earth is filled with violence because of them ( the earth is filled with violence/ oppression due to disobedience of God's laws/commands by humans) and behold, i am about to destroy them ( that god is about to punish them with a flood).
The reason why i am explaining these verses to you my brother is so that you may have better knowledge of the verses you are quoting from the bible.
The second verse you have quoted is the Psalms chap 35: verse 3 which was revealed to King David of Israel. My son you have quoted this verse out of its context, this chapter 35 of Psalm starts with the Prayer of King David as he is praying to God to help him against his enemies and simultaneously addressing his followers.
1.Plead my cause, O Lord, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for my help.
3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.
4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the Lord chase them.
6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the Lord persecute them.
7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul.
8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.
In Psalms chap 35: verse 8 King David is praying to God for the destruction of his enemies.
So in Psalm 35:3, King David is pleading to God and his followers to draw out the spear and stop the way against them that persecute me (David); say to my soul, I am your salvation ( the spirit of God is the way of salvation).
(you can change the version of the bible in the first two sites mentioned below)
So your point that thinking and going to act on thought of murder is murder itself is invalid and false for over here King David, a messenger of God is praying to God for the destruction of his enemies with the wrath of God and those who are plotting against King David may fall for their own traps which they have set for king David.
The last verse which you quoted was Proverbs 13:2, Proverbs 13 contains 25 verses in total. Again over here my brother you have quoted this verse out of its context and even if you quoted it out of its context it does not states that thinking and going to act on thoughts of murder is murder.
Proverbs 13 starts as:
13 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.
2 A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.
3 He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.
4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.
5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
6 Righteousness keepeth him that is upright in the way: but wickedness overthroweth the sinner.
7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.
8 The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke.
9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
This chapter of Proverbs 13 starts by stating that a wise son listens to his father's advice ( son being us humans and father being the Al-mighty God) but the Scorner ( those who mock God's verses and commands in mankind ) will hear not the advice of God rather they will rebuke his commands/ verses. Second verse states that He that keepth his mouth keepth his life (meaning those who do not rebuke the verses of God from their mouths have saved their souls for the eternal life is saved) but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence ( meaning God will punish those souls who rebuke His verses with Hell fire a place filled with violence for the condemned soul).
This is the translation of the King James version, i do not know which translation you are using but in any case, whatever the translation you use the meaning of the verse is same.
Let me explain according to the translation you have provided,
From the fruit of a man's mouth he enjoys good, But the desire of the treacherous is violence.
From the fruit of man's mouth he enjoys good,(those who do not rebuke God's verses but rather Praise God and recite his verses from their mouths are blessed with good and rewarded with good), but the desire of the treacherous is violence (but those who rebuke God with their mouths and rebuke His verses have a desire to condemn themselves with God's punishment of Hell fire which is filled with violence for their souls).
You have an option to change the version in this site and please let me know which version of the bible you will be quoting in the future so that i may respond adequately.
So son no where in the verses you have quoted is stated that thinking to murder someone is murder itself. Whenever you want to understand a verse of any chapter of the bible, never read the verse in isolation but rather read the whole chapter in which the verse is located to get the full context of the verse you are reading and that will help you understand the true meaning of the verse.
It is very misleading to quote a single verse but rather if you quote the whole chapter and state the verse in its context will reveal the truth.
God never punishes until you have acted out on the evil intentions/ evil thoughts or evil plans.
For example, Consider Mr.X, a man who has planned in his heart to kill millions of people for whatever reasons. No human know's of his secret to kill, for he has not told anyone. Everyone around Mr.X thinks he is a nice man because they have never seen him do anything evil. Only God knows what Mr. X has intended/planned because God knows the secrets of the hearts of all humans in the earth and God has given all humans the freedom to do anything they want. But Mr. X never acts on his plans and dies. And everyone who remembers Mr.X in the earth remembers Mr. X as a good man and pray on his funeral to God to reward him with heaven. So God does not punishes Mr. X for his plans for he never acted on them but rather God judges Mr. X according to the actions he did and rewards or punishes according to his actions in his life on earth.
God allows revenge in the bible , an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. In Matthew Chapter 5: verse 35, the Chapter 5 of Matthew contains 48 verses and starts with Jesus Christ son of Mary rising on the mountain after seeing multitudes of his followers surrounding him and then Jesus the Messiah started to preach:
5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
And then it continues until:
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
So look at the wonderful teachings of Jesus, for he admits in verse 38 that it is the law of God take revenge for the wrong done to you by another but Jesus taught it is better to forgive than to take revenge in the sight of God.
That is all for now, ill be waiting for your response and this time i believe you will base your argument on facts rather than misquoting verses unintentionally my son.
Love and sincerely yours,
I am a Muslim and i love Jesus more than many Christians in the world today.....
I would like to appologize really quickly I'm having some issues with my peers at school and I have to skip this round but I thank you anyway for being patient enough with me to explain the description of those bible verses.
Clearly I stand little to no chance of winning this debate, BUT, none the less I will strive to make this at least a tie. (P.S Thank you for the support and good luck getting your Master's Degree)
From the fruit of a man's mouth he enjoys good (Thus means act good be good), But the desire of the treacherous is violence( Thus forth it concludes if someone is acting and about to act or deeply want to commit a massacre they could already have done so in God's eyes)
Ok so maybe Psalm 35:3 was not a viable verse for this debate. But seeing as I have already established it I will continue to use bible verses.
As you quoted
"(humans or mankind) had corrupted their way upon earth. ( here corruption means to disobey the commands of God and follow other things or deities instead of God)"
As god has said that whatever you say think or do can be used against you (Well not directly). None the less if you go to act on a thought you have already committed the sin. About your point on not punishing those who only think and don't tell, Mr.X yes he never acted only thought about it, in this debate this man is going to act on his or her emotion and thoughts.
Mainly I'm focusing on the acting part of the act. You hold the boundary of stating the faults in my use of bible quotes but I would like to say murder can be spiritual, mental, and physical. Pushing a person on until the point where not there physical beings can't stand but mental being can't that is a type of murder.
You are very wise and sincere and I respect that, not many people online can be polite and sincere.
My son according to Jesus the messiah, he was so none violent that he preached that if someone slaps you on one cheek, you should turn your face and offer him to slap on your second cheek.....
The quran says killing one person is as though you have killed all of mankind......
with this said, there are situations where you might be forced to kill the person and still go to heaven......
First situation is that you kill a person in self-defense, e.g, you are at home and a robber attacks you there and you resists, and he threatens to kill you so you and in the struggle you end up killing him another example is that someone tries to kill you by shooting you with a gun but you end up killing him to protect yourself.....
Another situation can be that you see a man trying to rape a women and you intervene and try to stop him but the person attacks you and you end up killing him.
Another situation is that you are in the law enforcement agency and you kill a person while upholding the law in the line of duty....
Another situation is that you kill the person who killed your blood family meaning brother, sister, mother and father, wife and children, if you know who has killed your family member or members, God allows you to take revenge and kill the person responsible for the heinous crime.
Lastly, God allows a person to ascend to heavens who fights for God's religion and kills God's enemies. Mind you i am not talking about the wars based on nationalism e.g WW1 or WW2 or Vietnam war or war on terror currently imposed by these nationalistic governments. But rather i am talking about religious wars like the one between David the prophet of God and Goliath. A fight solely based on Abraham's religion, to make the commands of the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad prevail, a fight without which its survival will be difficult.
So i am ending here by answering your question which you posed in the start of this debate.........
Furiousjay48, my dear son, read all the gospels and read the psalms, the old testament( Torah) and the quran and only then after you have read all of those books yourself without any other person's influence and guidance but rather read all these books with the belief that God will guide you and give you knowledge, only then after reading them you will realize all these books are from the same God, the God of Abraham and its the same message of love, peace and then you will come to the conclusion all these divisions between people today is because in truth they haven't read all these books and they are in reality not following them, for its the same message from the same God.
The first book was revealed to Moses, the Torah giving detailed laws according to the needs of that time period, after centuries passed and time for extension came and God sent another messenger named David and revealed Psalms to him giving guidance and laws according to the needs of that era and then centuries passed then the time for further modification came and God sent another messenger name Jesus son of Mary and revealed the Gospel to him according to the needs and laws for the people according to the requirement at that time and then in the end 600 years after Jesus, came Muhammad with the last book of the same God, the quran..........
It has been 1400 years since Muhammad's death and no prophet has come because the chain of messengers has ended because the message is complete......
May God bless you my child and i hope God, the loving one always bless you with health, happiness and all good things of life which God has allowed us to do......
Love and sincerely yours