The Instigator
jeffkhockey5
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Sweatingjojo
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

If you make less than 250,000 a year why vote McCain?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Sweatingjojo
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/9/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,086 times Debate No: 5334
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (4)

 

jeffkhockey5

Pro

If you make less than 250,000 a year why vote McCain?

If you are not concernd with topics like:
gay marriage
Abortion
the death penalty
or any other moral issue

If you make less than 250,000 why not vote for Obama? Why would you vote for a candidate that wants to give tax cuts to the rich, benefits to corporations that ship jobs over seas, and a candidate that wants to remain in Iraq (whether we are wanted or not) when there is help needed in Afghanistan, and a candidate that wants to continue the poor bush economic and diplomatic policies that have made our once revered name a laughing stalk around the world.
Sweatingjojo

Con

G'devening, I thought I'd give this a shot. It should be interesting.

Either way, I think that there are many valid reasons one could primarily support that candidacy of John McCain.

I'll begin with refuting and then move on from there.

My opponent recognizes that there are certain 'moral issues' that are contentious in American political discussion. John McCain would not support gay marriage, because he believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. If you believe in this, than you may want to support John McCain.

John McCain has a right of center stance on abortion, which is that abortion should not be legal with exception granted to cases of rape, or when the mother's life is in danger. Surely if one is a follower of the Catholic Church, then one may be inclined to support Mr. McCain because his policies are more in line with your beliefs on life. (I used the Catholic Church as an example, there are umpteen billion Protestant sects as well that oppose abortion, and many others of other faiths or none in particular that simply feel that abortion is not something that should be legal.)

The Death Penalty is not so much a moral issue as it is a public safety issue, as it is believed by many to act as a deterrent to major felonies. Regardless of whether or not this is true, it is perceived by many to be so, and those people are likely to support John McCain for President because he agrees with their stance.

As to: "Why not vote for Obama if you make less than $250,000 per annum?"

I think I've just answered that, and I'll continue my discussion as to the various reasons and further refutations regarding why one making less than $250,000 could be inclined to vote for Mr. McCain.

"Why would you vote for a candidate that wants to give tax cuts to the rich"

Mr. McCain's tax cuts are extended to people of all income levels, not just the ultra rich, as my opponent implies. If you want to have your taxes cut, and make any level of income, John McCain may be your guy.

"benefits to corporations that ship jobs over seas"

Once again, my opponent mis-constructs Mr. McCain's positions regarding corporate taxes. John McCain believes that taxes are a hinderence to the creation and maintence of wealth, wealth which benefits the economy by allowing for more jobs to be created here. Many people do not believe in the quasi-protectionist policies that Barack Obama is endorsing, and thats why they may want to vote for John McCain, who proposes an alternate strategy to get the economy working again.

"a candidate that wants to remain in Iraq (whether we are wanted or not)"
John McCain would stay in Iraq to the point where the job is done to ensure that Iraq can remain a stable, democratic nation for many years thereafter. John McCain is not afraid to look at the war in Iraq from an objective standpoint, he know when things weren't working, and he worked to find a way that would make it work (the surge.) In the words of Borat, the surge is 'great success', which is indicative of John McCain's military experience and know-how. John McCain is not afraid of working also in Afghanistan, as my opponent suggests.

John McCain's foreign policy strategy differs from Barack Obama's in significant ways. Mr. McCain supports a stronger United States abroad, with less aversion to using military force to deal with rouge nations. He is not afraid to ensure that American interests are protected around the world, and is willing to be a loyal ally to those who support standing up to tyranny. (See Georgia.) This is appealing to many Americans who find it simply wrong that the President of the United States would intentionally weaken her position abroad, or would be willing to talk to enemies of the United States. (Cubans certainly will be voting for J-Mac.)

Its 'laughing stock' not 'laughing stalk.'

John McCain's record of reform is also one that could be found appealing to many, as he has shown an ability to be non-partisan in ensuring that the government of the United States is working for the people, and is doing so in a fair and responsible manner.

John McCain is slightly considered more like able than Barack Obama (see all opinion polls asking that question), which is another good reason to vote for people to vote for him. (Why would people vote for someone they dislike?)

To millions of Americans who make less than $250,000 a year, John McCain is a clear choice for president for the preceding reasons, and many more.

I eagerly await your response.
Debate Round No. 1
jeffkhockey5

Pro

My opponent, started in on my "faith", by bringing to the table the Catholic Churches Stance abortion, gay marriage , the death penalty, all the moral issues that small minded bible pushing evangelicals are most likely to vote on morals are going to vote on. Lets face it the radical Christians are going to more than likely vote on issue that they feel have to do with the bible, or what their pastor tells them to vote on, and so on and so on...

The beauty of this nation that, we were founded as nonsecular nation, with a separation of church and state, a nation whose inhabitants are free to believe in what ever faith they want to... And just because you believe one thing does not mean that all Americans must believe that.

Example: Jan Doe believe life begins at conception because that is how she has interpreted it through her faith journey as a catholic christian.
While Mike Doe feels that feels that life is not guaranteed through conception, that conception is only potential life, and he has come to this conclusion through his up bringing as a Lutheran, his church may disagree, but that is his choice, above all god created man with free thought and free will.

Regardless of whether you agree with Mike on this issue, it is not your right to impose your beliefs or faith on him, faith and the bible are not credible sources, and whether we agree with the issue of abortion or not we have to realize that abortion across America will continue to occur whether it is legal or not. So whether moral or not it is better to have it in safe environment, rather than in back allies, and barn yards...

On gay marriage another moral issue,let's face it, it is seen all over the world. Whether you think it is impure, immoral or just nasty, it is something common and often there is true love among partners. Marriage , Civil Union, whatever you want to call it, these couples deserve the same legal rights as a man and women, who are married, for legal reasons it is a necessity to be treated as a couple rather than two single entities. That's just the way it is.

Lastly the my opponent sees the Death Penalty a deterrent, as if a criminal is thinking before he kills someone ," I would rob and kill you for your wallet, if I wasn't going to be potentially facing the death penalty"... I would love to see the criminal with that thought process. Also I find it interesting that my opponent opposes abortion but supports the death penalty that always confuses me...kinda like an oxymoron....

I am very glad that my opponent has brought me in to this debate about moral issues because, I feel that often presidential policies have repercussions that often affect these moral issues heavily. Abortion is one of those issue that is often affected by presidential policy. When Clinton and the congress of the 1990s started implemented sexual education and the uses of contraceptives, surprise surprise the number of abortions per year began to decline. (http://www.infoplease.com...)

It is semi amusing that McCain and his conservative base in Washington continue to vote against giving out contraceptives in high schools, even though they are proven to not only reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy but also reduce the spread of STD's and HIV, Rather he and VP choice Sarah Palin prefer to implement abstinence based teaching as a deterrent to teens considering sexual intercourse, well we all know how this one goes just ask Bristol...

Back to the my point on presidential policy having an affect of on moral issues, lets have a look at Barack Obama and John McCain's social upbringings. McCain the son and grandchild of an admiral by no means middle class, Obama the black child of a white mother who had work day and night to ensure him a decent education, McCain who slacked through high school with a guaranteed ride to the US Naval academy, Obama who worked his but off to get into Columbia and then Harvard Law... See a trend, Obama had to work for almost every thing that he had in life, one major slip up, or an up bringing by a mother and grandparents who didn't care, he is just an another fatherless young man, and a problem with many fatherless men with out strong mothers is that many have no convictions, no drive, and often become subservient to system that more often pushes them a life of crime, crime that can ultimately put them on death row. A stretch I know, and most certainly not them most common aftermath, but a true possibility.

Where John McCain wants to continue the Bush policy of using our tax dollars to support school vouchers to send public fund towards a Private education, Barack Obama wants to create a system where we pay our teachers more, get ride of the ones who are not doing their jobs well, stop teaching a test. To ensure our sons and daughters the same education nationwide.

Where John McCain wants to spend as long as it takes in Iraq, even though Iraq wants a troop withdrawal deadline, where John McCain wants to continue to invest Billions of tax dollars in a country, who is generating a surplus. Barack Obama wants to establish a troop withdrawal deadline to stop the useless spending, and generate a greater focus on the war in Afghanistan, the country who actually attacked us on 9/11, and restore the tarnished image of American diplomacy

Where John McCain wants to continue to give tax breaks and incentives American corporations as they move a jobs to foreign lands , where Barack Obama wants to to give tax incentives corporations that create jobs here in the United states.

Where John McCain wants to set in stone the Bush tax cuts that left out the middle class, Barack Obama wants to reward the middle class blue collar worker with income tax breaks, and general tax breaks for families that make less than 250,000 dollars a year.

Where John McCain wants to drill for oil we won't see till 2030, Barack Obama wants to escape from our dependence on foreign oil and heavily invest in a works program to create millions of jobs in alternative fuels.

I could go on and on...
The bottom line is this :Who do you Trust more the son of an admiral that drove an Corvette in high school and dated a stripper, or the candidate who came from a middle class family and worked his way to the top. After all John McCain is a man who doesn't even know how many houses he owns. It's somewhere between 7 and 11, after all the McCain definition of rich is someone makes more than 4,000,000 a year.

For more of the same Vote McCain....

I voting for change.

I eagerly await your response.
Sweatingjojo

Con

To begin, I'd like to point out to the audience here that my opponent seems to be debating a topic which is not the one that was agreed to, and stated in the title line. My opponent has begun explaining why Senator Obama would be a better pick than Senator McCain. The topic asks the question, "why would someone making less than $250,000 vote for Sen. McCain?" I have answered that question, and my opponent fails to refute my reasoning. Regardless, I will respond to my opponent's statements.

"...Catholic Churches Stance abortion, gay marriage , the death penalty,all the moral issues that small minded bible pushing evangelicals are most likely to vote on morals are going to vote on. Lets face it the radical Christians are going to more than likely vote on issue that they feel have to do with the bible, or what their pastor tells them to vote on, and so on and so on..."

1. Are you suggesting that morality is something only for the small-minded. Or are you suggesting that morality is something only for Christians?
2. On the prevalence of Evangelicals in America: 2007 Gallup poll shows that 49% of Americans describe themselves as Protestant, of those, 41% of them describe themselves as Born Again, or evangelical. So that means 20% of Americans would describe themselves as Evangelical Christians.
3. On the issue of abortion: 54% of Americans polled by Gallup on the 11th of May of this year are aligned with Mr. McCain's position on abortion, which is that it should be legal in some circumstances. 54 is significantly larger than 20, obviously there must be some people other than 'bible pushing evangelicals' who might vote for Mr. McCain in part because of his stance on that issue.
4. Death penalty: 69% of Americans favor the death penalty for those convicted of murder. So yeah. Previous statements can be applied here as well.
5.Homosexuality: My opponent deserves to be enlightened to know that Mr. McCain supports giving certain benefits
to homosexual couples, ones that are currently held by heterosexual couples.

" And just because you believe one thing does not mean that all Americans must believe that."
Not in terms of religion, but in terms of popular sovereignty , if the majority of americans believe something, it can be made into law. (another beautiful thing about america.)

"...completely unrelated story..."

"So whether moral or not it is better to have it in safe environment, rather than in back allies, and barn yards..."

Are you saying that the government should freely allow an immoral action, even when the majority of americans do not agree with the immoral action (abortion) being freely available, with no restrictions? [see previous polling data] That's antithetical to the concept of a Republic/Democracy, where the people rule the government, not the other way around. Those people who support certain limits on abortion (54% of americans) are aligned with John McCain's position, and may be inclined to vote for him because of it.

"gay marriage blah blah...for legal reasons it is a necessity to be treated as a couple rather than two single entities."

See previous statement regarding Mr. McCain's intentions for more rights to be bestowed upon homosexual couples.

"Lastly the my opponent sees the Death Penalty a deterrent"
I never said that, I said that certain people may see capital punishment as a crime deterrent, among other reasons for supporting the death penalty. Incidentally, A gallup poll indicates that most americans who support the death penalty (69% of the country), support it because it is a just punishment for the crime 37% (out of various justifications.) That statistic is no matter though, because 69% of the country supports the death penalty for those who commit murder, and so does Senator McCain.

" Also I find it interesting that my opponent opposes abortion but supports the death penalty that always confuses me...kinda like an oxymoron...."
I never said that, I said that many people do though.

"..bunch of nonsense about sex ed in schools and stuff...It is semi amusing that McCain and his conservative base in Washington..."
The fact that there are people to elect gaggles of conservatives who hold these positions is indicative of the fact that there are people who are willing to vote for a conservative, or one who is more like a conservative, John McCain.

"... completely nonsensical fallacious attack story regarding each candidates upbringings..."

I'm not responding to it, because it is incorrect on many levels, and doesn't relate to the resolution/topic at all.

From here on, my opponent's debate post becomes simply an Obama surrogate speech... Nevertheless, I will respond in brief to each statement.

"Where John McCain wants to continue the Bush policy of using our tax dollars to support school vouchers to send public fund towards a Private education, Barack Obama wants to create a system where we pay our teachers more, get ride of the ones who are not doing their jobs well, stop teaching a test. To ensure our sons and daughters the same education nationwide."

School vouchers for kids in failing schools have been proven to work around the country, and frankly should not be a partisan issue. Liberal americans need to suck it up and admit that conservatives are completely right on this one, and then move on to argue about other pressing matters. Throwing money at the education system on the other hand, has been met with lukewarm results. Why not go for the one that we know works? John McCain agrees, and finds that many people who make less than 250 grand a year do as well.

"Where John McCain wants to spend as long as it takes in Iraq, even though Iraq wants a troop withdrawal deadline, where John McCain wants to continue to invest Billions of tax dollars in a country, who is generating a surplus."

Mr. McCain wants out of Iraq as well, but believes that the terms should be set so they are favorable for Americans. An Iraq without an infrastructure buildup will become an unstable Iraq, which is extremely detrimental to the interests of the United States and most of the world.

"...Afghanistan, the country who actually attacked us on 9/11, and restore the tarnished image of American diplomacy.."
This is undeniably false, all of the attackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. Mr. McCain also seeks diplomacy, he is no war dog, but he has cast an image that he is not afraid to defend america, which is appealing to many people.

"Where John McCain wants to continue to give tax breaks and incentives American corporations as they move a jobs to foreign lands , where Barack Obama wants to to give tax incentives corporations that create jobs here in the United states."

John McCain believes that incentives should be given to American companies, to ensure the growth of the economy, the first statement about giving money to outsourcing companies is a total misconstruction of his policies.

"Where John McCain wants to set in stone the Bush tax cuts that left out the middle class.."

Lie. John McCain supports tax cuts for people of all income tax brackets, as found by the non-partisan Brookings institution. Many people feel that the government is wasting their money, and John McCain wants to give it back to the people, which is something that appeals to 52% of americans (Gallup, who else?), as they find that their income taxes are too high.

"Where John McCain wants to drill for oil we won't see till 2030, Barack Obama wants to escape from our dependence on foreign oil and heavily invest in a works program to create millions of jobs in alternative fuels."

Mr. McCain also supports energy independence, and includes offshore drilling in his plan. (Just as Barack Obama!)

"Who do you Trust more the son of an admiral that drove an Corvette in high school..."

Argumentum ad hominem is disgusting, and its not like Obama grew up as a golden boy either.

character limit bye.
Debate Round No. 2
jeffkhockey5

Pro

Your statements about the effectiveness vouchers, your random statistics from gallup make you sound like Bill O'Reilly spewing out baseless percentages.

Fact the McCain tax cuts are essentially the same Bush's. Fact the McCain of 2000 is very different from the McCain of 2008.

The McCain of 2000 for
-Not overturning Roe v Wade
-Gay Marriage or Civil Unions gay rights
- Against the Bush's Tax cuts

The McCain of 2008
-The opposite of all the above
Sweatingjojo

Con

Once again, my opponent is working to reshape the purpose of this debate, and also has refused to address my points from my first and second posts. It seems that he/she accepts my points, and is left with no choice but to make off-topic and distractionary claims. Either way, I will try to prove them wrong.

"Your statements about the effectiveness vouchers, your random statistics from gallup make you sound like Bill O'Reilly spewing out baseless percentages."

While Bill'o certainly is a character, there is nothing that can substitute the taste of a cold, hard, fact. Which I presented on numerous occasions, without even the slightest attempt at refutuation other than a comparison of myself to a popular person in the news business.

"Fact the McCain tax cuts are essentially the same Bush's. Fact the McCain of 2000 is very different from the McCain of 2008."

If those two things (regardless of their truth) help make him more popular, then that only helps my case.

The other purported changes may help him win more votes, although I certainly doubt the factual value of the first two statements.

To remind everyone here, my opponent has not refuted any of my arguments is a satisfactory manner, and seems determined to extend the meaning and scope of this debate every time he speaks.

Thats all for now, and I hope my opponent can change his/her ways before it is too late.
Debate Round No. 3
jeffkhockey5

Pro

jeffkhockey5 forfeited this round.
Sweatingjojo

Con

Ah how unfortunte that my opponent conceded.

Hopefully he/she'll come around and say something for the final round.
Debate Round No. 4
jeffkhockey5

Pro

jeffkhockey5 forfeited this round.
Sweatingjojo

Con

Once again, my opponent has not responded.

What a shame, I guess I win.

Oh, and here's the kicker, I'm an Obama supporter.
Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by scissorhands7 8 years ago
scissorhands7
Haha, we seriously might. However, lets wait until after each presidential candidate does so on friday.
Posted by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
Edward Scissorhands:

Do we have to argue number 10 again? :)
Posted by scissorhands7 8 years ago
scissorhands7
To name just a view reasons...

1. Capital gains tax
2. Support of partial birth abortion
3. Opposition to Nafta
4. Lack of Executive Experience
5. Support of Windfall profit tax for oil
6. Lack of success of National Healthcare Plan
7. Hosing the rich with super amounts of taxes
8. How his taxing plan doesnt add up
9. How his taxes do nothing to balance the budget.
10. How he has such a lack of foreign policy experience that he had to make up with it by selecting a VP in that field.
11. How his voting record is far left.
12. ETC.
Posted by magpie 8 years ago
magpie
I have much less than $250K, but I'll vote for McCain. Let me count the reasons:
1. Rev. Jeremiah Wright - "G--D-- America" BO's pastor
2. Bernadine Dorn - unrepentant anti American terrorist - wife of W. Ayers
3. William Ayers - unrepentant anti American terrorist - friend of BO
4. Black Liberation Theology
5. Resko Quid-Pro-quo $300,000 in exchange for $12,000,000. Revko went to prison - BO runs for president.
6. Fr. Flager - commie priest - friend of BO
7. Nearly one trillion destined (ostensibly for the world's poor) to be doled out to enemies of America.
8. BO supports increased taxes supposedly "on the rich". Experience, tells me this will hurt me economically.
9. BO supports socialized medicine as a start toward total Socialism.
10. Because McCain is not BO!
Posted by Leftymorgan 8 years ago
Leftymorgan
The sad thing there is the lower income people don't provide the jobs. It is those that have more than $250,000 that provides jobs for the lower income people. And if they are forced to pay more taxes, they will either increase the cost of goods or do with less personnel to make up that increase. They will not do without less once they get whatever profit they are comfortable with. Has the Government ever done with less, think not. Get rid of the Subsidies and Pork in some of these bills the budget might get under control.
Posted by Sweatingjojo 8 years ago
Sweatingjojo
Aye, Obama votes with bush something like 55% of the time.

But also, Obama will cut taxes much more for those in lower income brackets.
Posted by LR4N6FTW4EVA 8 years ago
LR4N6FTW4EVA
You all know that McCain is in support of across the board tax cuts? It's not just the rich people, it's you and me that get tax cuts as well. Also sarsin, 90% of the time McCain votes with Bush. I hear this all too often. The fact is the majority of the bills Congress gets are bills like "Let's name my district's post office after a former civil rights activist!" Or "Let's support US agriculture." I don't have the statistics, but I would wager that Obama votes with Bush at least 50% of the time. Other Republicans probably vote with Bush closer to 99% of the time.

Also, echoing what jamesothy said, Obama lacks experience. As an example, the current governor of Massachusetts, Deval Patrick had about as much experience as Obama, had the same campaign manager, and had similar views, you know, the guy Obama was accused of plagiarizing? Well he came in with all these nice ideas, and they all failed (I do exaggerate a bit). He did not have the political skill or experience to get his ideas turned into legislation. I doubt Obama will be more successful.
Posted by sarsin 8 years ago
sarsin
I wasn't conceding anything, I was saying that picking a party off of small government is a waste of time. McCain votes against pork barrel spending, but that is a small fraction of the problem at large. In the past 8 years, McCain has agreed with the President a majority of the time yet stands up and declares Washington broken. Why should I vote for a guy that helped break it? The problem with this election is no one is right for the country. You can tell because we're back to non-issues. We're talking about personality traits, abortion, and gay marriage because in truth neither candidate has answers to our real problems.
Posted by Leftymorgan 8 years ago
Leftymorgan
Based off of this question alone:Why would you vote for a candidate that wants to give tax cuts to the rich. Is enough of a reason to not vote for Obama. You get penalized for being successful. If you do well you get to pay more into a system that can even run a firt aid clinic.
Posted by HappilyMarried 8 years ago
HappilyMarried
sarsin,

So are you conceding all the points about Obama in the paragraph BEFORE my tax statement? Excellent!

I am not voting for the current administration nor party, I am voting for McCain. Why you ask, while you are correct in your statement of Bush and by extension the Republican party losing their way as fiscal conservatives,I believe of all the candidates running for president, McCain is the only one who will try to reverse that trend.

The governmental messes made by both parties over the last 16 years is going to take 20+ yrs to correct, but I believe it is correctable, it just takes someone who has the guts to push it through.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
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