The Instigator
ericjpomeroy
Pro (for)
Losing
30 Points
The Contender
FunkeeMonk91
Con (against)
Winning
40 Points

Illegal Immigrants are at the base of almost every major problem in America.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/6/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,447 times Debate No: 2457
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (22)

 

ericjpomeroy

Pro

I will keep my opening statement brief. Illegal immigrants are a cancer on our nation. They can be linked back to almost any problem in America. Supporters of illegal immigrants throw out the same lame defenses, that our economy depends on them, that the work jobs Americans don't want to work, they are innocent people looking for a better life. I say they are criminals the second they cross our border and should be treated as such. Crime, gangs, drugs, health care, our economy, they affect all these things negatively.

I will elaborate more in the later rounds.
FunkeeMonk91

Con

First off, thanks for sending me this challenge. This will be interesting...

Ok, so your contention is that illegals cause every major problem in America. In order to win, you must do two things: 1) outline every major problem in America and 2) prove how immigrants are responsible. If you don't do that, you don't have a debate. Period.

Now, I think I will make a bold statement: It is the legals that cause problems for illegals. It is true that many immigrants have problems with gangs or drugs. But have you ever thought why they are in those kinds of situations? I think that it is the ones already here that force them to live in these conditions. For example, in Arizona, a law was just passed that put up very harsh punishments for hiring illegal immigrants. As a result, thousands, maybe millions, of immigrants have been fired from their jobs. They have no way to support themselves or their families. They now have two choices: move to another state, or resort to crime.

I think that we have a moral obligation to create laws that encourage prosperity among immigrants. That way, they get what they want (work/good home) and we get what we want (labor). Yes, at the extremely superficial level, it is the immigrants that commit crimes or join gangs. But it our (for lack of a better term) "fault" that they have to live like that. In other words, if we would be more accepting and more immigrant-friendly, than they would not be forced to join in illicit activity in order to feed their families.

Again, I'm not saying that we should just let all the borders open and let anyone who comes in become a citizen. But our laws should encourage immigration, not prohibit it. Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. With the current legislation, we are denying immigrants their inherent rights.
Debate Round No. 1
ericjpomeroy

Pro

I want to thank you for accepting my debate. I also want to take this moment to agree with a statement you made. You said: "I think that we have a moral obligation to create laws that encourage prosperity among immigrants. That way, they get what they want (work/good home) and we get what we want (labor)." I couldn't agree more, I think immigrants are the foundation of our country. But, ILLEGAL immigrants are the issue. The immigrants who come here legally have all my respect and praise. I want to outline a few points here.

1. Crime. We all know that crime is a serious issue. Our immigration system is set up so that we can filter out criminals that try to immigrate to America. Yet, we have 12 million illegal immigrants in our country. The fact of the matter is once they cross that border, they are in fact criminals. Since 9/11 42,000 people have been murdered by illegal immigrants. That is more than 10x the amount of American soldiers that have died in Iraq! The violent crime rate in cities and towns near the border are out of hand. One of the largest gangs in America, MS 13, is composed mainly of illegal immigrants. More than 25% of illegal immigrants have a criminal record!

2. Drugs. I work in a treatment center for kids with drug problems and such, so this hits hard for me. It is common knowledge that a majority of the drug trade comes from south America. How do you think it gets from there to here? I will tell you that our open border stance we have right now is a major reason drug abuse is on the rise.

3. Our Economy and health care. The Government puts aside 10 billion dollars a year for hospital write-offs and that still doesn't cover it. Illegal immigrants send 10 billion dollars a year back to Mexico. Not to mention the Welfare programs that are abused by illegals. I know that unemployment is at an all time low right now for adults, but teenagers are struggling to find work. Illegals supposedly take jobs that Americans want, like fast food and farming. That is a total lie. I grew up in a farming community and there were no illegals working on the farms, teenagers work the farms, and fast food, and all the "undesirable jobs". These are American young adults trying to find work but get denied based on greed supported by illegal immigration.

4. Immigration. This system we have put forth is long and detailed. There is a reason for it. It is to protect the citizens in America already. It is not perfect, but it is our law. Yet it is undermined by the illegals, they show no regard for our laws. I have spoken to many LEGAL immigrants and they are as frustrated as I am with the state of our immigration problem. It makes them targets for racial profiling and harassment.

5. National Security. This goes without saying. If a thousand people can cross the border in a week, what is to stop one guy with a dirty bomb?

I am not saying I don't recognize that these are people who are from country with a corrupt government, poor health care, and a poor economy. That is terrible. But the flow of illegal immigrants we are seeing is having a negative impact on our economy, our health care, and lets face it, our government is already corrupt.
FunkeeMonk91

Con

Good round. I was expecting this to be a radical hate speech, but your arguments are very intelligent. However, I think that there are some holes in your contention.

Here are my rebuttals to your respective points:

1) Crime. Yes, the fact that immigrants crossed the border illegal would make them criminals. However, I think that the law is "criminal." If we made it easier to become a US citizen, then there would never be illegal immigrants. So it's not the immigrants fault for coming here, it's the laws fault for not accepting them.

"Since 9/11 42,000 people have been murdered by illegal immigrants. That is more than 10x the amount of American soldiers that have died in Iraq!"

Interesting statistic (a source would be nice). But I would like to see the number of people that have been killed by legal citizens. The San Diego Union-Tribune put out an article that said over 100,000 people have been killed since 9/11. Assuming your source is correct, 58,000 people have been killed by legal immigrants. That's 16,000 more people that legal citizens have killed than illegal immigrants. But you're right, border cities are violent and gangs are comprised of mostly illegals, but so far, I've proven legals have done more damage than illegals.

"More than 25% of illegal immigrants have a criminal record!"

Another un-sourced quote. However, I would also like to see how many of those crimes were violent offenses. Probably not many. Remember, illegals commit crime because they are poor and oppressed; most crimes are probably petty theft or other nonviolent crimes. Instead of locking them up in detention centers, why isn't anyone wonder "Why are they so desperate?" It amazes me that we are so lazy that instead of addressing the problem at its source, we come up with these unreasonable short-term solutions.

2. Drugs. Again, why do you think that immigrants resort to drug dealing? Because it's an "easy" way to make a lot of money, really fast.

I know I've said this a lot, and I'll probably say it a lot more, but this is more than a debate for me. The laws we have are not just. They are the reason why immigrants have such a hard time in this country. Did you know that it takes over 6 months to gain citizenship? That is ridiculous, and some families cannot wait that long.

3. Economy/health care. I won't fight you on health care. illegal immigration does call problems there, but I'm not sure what you mean by that last half. You say that there are no immigrants working "undesirable" jobs, but then you say that Americans are denied jobs because of immigration. Could you clarify your contradiction?

4. Immigration. "This system we have put forth is long and detailed. There is a reason for it. It is to protect the citizens in America already." In America, we have yet to try an immigrant friendly system. So how do you know that you need these overtly harsh rules, if there hasn't been anything but?

"Yet it is undermined by the illegals, they show no regard for our laws." But we show no regard for their right to life. They have a right to feed their families and to send their children to schools. Yet, ignore their problems. Our philosophy is "Well, they broke the law, now we have an excuse to deport them." There's something wrong with that statement.

5. National Security. You have a point with the dirty bomb. I will assume that you are referring to terrorism. If someone really wanted to make an impact, they wouldn't carry a small bomb across the border. They would fly a plane into something. Terrorists would not waste their time crossing the border, just so they could go to a place like Yuma, Arizona. If they ever tried to do anything again, it would by through aviation methods.

"...lets face it, our government is already corrupt." You don't see anything wrong with that statement. Our corrupt officials are the ones making these laws. If they are so corrupt, why do you agree with their policies?

I hate to sound redundant, but we need to fix the situation we put immigrants in. You could trace their struggle all the way back to the Mexican-American War (that is another debate all together). But if we are responsible, why are we holding them responsible? If we fix the system, everyone wins and the things you talk about would not be problems.
Debate Round No. 2
ericjpomeroy

Pro

Good points made. The 42,000 people killed by illegals was a combined statistic with murders and and drunk driving, sorry if there was confusion. I have to disagree with a few points you made though. First off with crime, you say it is the law that is criminal. Well, I don't agree with speed limits, yet I follow them, I don't agree with seat belt laws, I follow them, there are hundreds of laws that are on the books that are just stupid, but most people follow them cause it is the law. It is a terrible thing that they are so oppressed in their country, but millions have immigrated here legally, why can't they? Why can't I buy a pack of gum in southern California without having to speak spanish? What is criminal is they come to America to USE America. I have no problem with people that learn English, that denounce all loyalty to their old country, and immigrate here legally. That shows me they really want to be here, that they are willing to work for it.
Secondly, still on the issue of crime. It seems you almost justify the killings of American citizens by illegals because legal citizens do it too. That is usually the first defense I get in this argument. These are people that shouldn't even be in this country killing our citizens! It is an act that should never happen, not that murder should happen at all. 8 children a day are molested by illegal immigrants, is that justified? That is why we have the immigration system. To weed out murders, rapists, drug dealers, etc. Americans that commit crimes get caught and punished, cause they are documented, they have records.
Here are some of my sources, I couldn't find all of them, this is a bunch though.
http://www.wnd.com...
http://www.city-journal.org...
http://www.nwaonline.com...
http://usinfo.state.gov...
http://www.rasmusen.org...
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org...

Now on to the drugs. Yes, dealing is an easy way to make money. But their reasons behind it aren't valid. 6 months to become a legal citizen? That is nothing. I spent 6 months to become a soldier. I can promise you I went through a lot worse things than the immigration system. But it all has a reason behind it. The immigration system is tough, but it should be! We shouldn't let just anyone in here should we? To say, I can't wait that long, I am just gonna hop the fence. That isn't ok. Crime is crime. Would I steal a loaf of bread to feed my family? Yes, but as an absolute last resort. They aren't using America as a last resort, they are just using America.

To clarify, the Americans I were referring to that are denied jobs are teenagers. I may not have made that clear. But ADULT unemployment is at an all time high, and teenage employment is at a record low. That is what I meant by that.

A dirty bomb is a crude, radiation expelling device. But my point is. To get a nuke here, to get any type of weapon of mass destruction here, the mexican border is the easiest way. Flying planes into buildings is a lot of hassle. Our borders are so lax people literally walk across like they are going to church.

When I said our Government is corrupt, I meant it. If it wasn't corrupt, there wouldn't be 12 million illegals here, there wouldn't be spanish news papers, signs, and flags everywhere. If our government wasn't corrupt we wouldn't be paying $3.00 a gallon for gas. If our government wasn't corrupt Hillary Clinton wouldn't have a shot at being president. I also want to point out, I have never said I agree with all their policies, I hate their immigration policies. Not for the same reason you do, but because the are too lax. Trust me, compared to other countries our immigration system is cake.

I think this is a perfect description of how our immigrants should be.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

I will close with this. Immigration is a problem that is affecting all of America, it hits us in our wallets, our hospitals, our prisons, and our homes. If it comes down to a moral obligation to a people, it should be to the American people. We cannot sacrifice our quality of life for a people that refuse to assimilate to us, that refuse to become part of are country, and are perfectly content to abuse and use our country for it's resources. The plight in Mexico is a problem, but it is a Mexican problem. Short of declaring war on Mexico and claiming it as a US territory, what can we do? We need to look after our citizens. If we take on all the problems of the world it is just a matter of time before we are in the same situation. Would you have a problem with a man you didn't know just walking into your home, eating your food, watching your tv, driving your car? It is the same situation we are in, but in a larger scale. Illegal immigration, is no small matter, it is a dangerous game we are playing and it needs to stop. It is an invasion by another country, and we need to recognize it as such.
My friend I must say, the statements you have made tell me several things about you as a person. You are a good person, you are a liberal, and you have only good intentions. But, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I consider America as close to Heaven as we can get, we should treat it as such and stop letting anyone with a pair of legs in.

Thank you. Vote Romney!
FunkeeMonk91

Con

"...there are hundreds of laws that are on the books that are just stupid, but most people follow them cause it is the law."

So, are you saying that the laws dictate morality? Shouldn't it be the reverse? It's just common sense to think that the laws are there to protect people. But the laws we have don't seem to apply to the immigrant. Then you might say, "Well, we only need to protect our own citizens." But haven't the conflicts in the Middle East been justified by the same thing? To directly quote George W. Bush, "We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation -- the moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right."

We don't have any citizens in Iraq or Afghanistan, so why are we there? Why is it OK to occupy other nations, but not OK to make sure that families our fed within our own borders? But I digress. My point is that laws are not always just. Your argument is that we should obey because it is law. But that is a slippery slope to a "V for Vendetta" type of society.

"What is criminal is they come to America to USE America. I have no problem with people that learn English, that denounce all loyalty to their old country, and immigrate here legally."

So basically, what you're saying is that if you don't speak English and/or cut off all ties with your home country, you are not welcome here? That is preposterous. Anyone has the right to come here and take pride in their native countries and cultures. I'm sure that when your ancestors came from wherever, they were still proud to be Irish, Polish, German, or whatever.

Next, I wasn't justifying murders by illegal immigrants. I was showing how your statement about crime was. You were saying illegals are a main source of crime because they committed x amount of crimes. But legal citizens have committed many more. So the fact that they have committed crimes doesn't justify their deportation, for people here have done much worse.

I don't think you realize how long 6 months is. Yes, you probably went through a lot in the military during that time, but you were fed, clothed, housed, and even running water and electricity! The amenities you had in boot camp can't even be fathomed by many that cross the border. Try to empathize with these people. The black and white logic that you are in favor of (he broke the law, automatic full punishment), isn't cutting it. Lives are at stake. Doesn't that bother you? People are dying because they can't feed themselves or their families. It is true that it may hurt us economically to help these people, but isn't it worth it to save human life? In today's society, saying that makes you a liberal hippie douche bag. But I don't know what has become of this country where we deny people basic human rights.

"Would I steal a loaf of bread to feed my family? Yes, but as an absolute last resort." You don't think these immigrants are acting out of last resort? It's not like they want to come here on their own accord. It sucks to have to leave your country, your culture, your family, and everything you've ever known. These people are crossing out of last resort. In fact, once they gain enough funds, many go back to start a living. That is a fact.

I understand what you mean by terrorism and the border. But, I am not necessarily against border patrol or border security. I am all for that. But once people get there, shouldn't we help them out? Detaining people doesn't help anyone. Like I said in the previous round, by making citizenship more easily attainable, everyone wins. So, I'm not downplaying the need for border security, but if we fixed the system, there would be virtually no need for detention centers and other "deterrents" of immigration.

"there wouldn't be spanish news papers, signs, and flags everywhere." What happened to the 1st Amendment? Doesn't everyone, legal or illegal, have a right to express themselves. And like I said, what's wrong with having love for the home country?

The system is flawed, but you are wrong when you say it's too lax. Look, even if we kept the citizenship requirements the same, but gave out more green cards or things of that nature, things would be looking a lot better.

Don't get me wrong, Teddy was one of the best presidents we've ever had. But that statement in itself is subtly nativist. Every human being has the right to come to this country, regardless of allegiance or language. No one should have to assimilate to anyone else. That is the beauty of this country and that cannot be found in most nations.

"We cannot sacrifice our quality of life for a people that refuse to assimilate to us, that refuse to become part of are country, and are perfectly content to abuse and use our country for it's resources." Wow. You don't think it isn't worth sacrificing a few luxuries here and there to save these families? I mean, I'm not a proponent of Communism or anything, but what is wrong with giving up a few things for the well-being of our brothers to the south?

Also, if they were legal but did not assimilate, would you still be so supportive? Does the (for lack of a better term) "whiteness" of a person dictate whether they have a right to come here?

We are abusing immigrants ourselves. How else would we get such cheap labor? It's horrible the kinds of conditions these guys work in, and for such little pay. That in itself is a crime: they come all this way, just so we can pay them sh*t salaries, because we know that if they speak up, they will be deported. It's disgusting that so many American go on knowing this without any second thought.

"It is an invasion by another country, and we need to recognize it as such." If this is an invasion, then the war in Iraq is genocide. C'mon. You're blowing things way out of proportion.

"But, the road to hell is paved with good intentions." I've heard this before, but I think it's an excuse from extreme capitalists to make sure that we don't look out for our fellow man. Human lives should be our priority, not profits.

I'm going to close with, I think, a very fitting quote. It's on a little thing I like to call, The Statue of Liberty. It saddens me that we have strayed so far from these ideals that we once held so close.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by FunkeeMonk91 6 years ago
FunkeeMonk91
I just want to make it clear, that debate was not "pro-illegal immigration." I just think that we should change the system so that people have no reason to cross illegally. I'm not saying we should let our borders open and let anyone who wants in.
Posted by goldspurs 6 years ago
goldspurs
Anonymous,

First off you can change your vote by simply clicking on Con.

Secondly you know you are generalizing over 70% of the country with that moronic statement. Most of the country opposes illegal immigration. You talk about ignorance but most of your little comment is unintelligible rabble.

By the way, how is our goverment the "biggest drug dealer" and what are you talking about when you say "you hypocrite you will do well in office".
Posted by Anonymous 6 years ago
Anonymous
I voteed pro by accident. People who make statements like you are generally too self-absorbed an ignorant of the truth to even get on a ste like this and vote, let alone debate.

By the way, our government is the biggest drug dealer on the planet you hypocrite you will do well in office.
Posted by Ristaag 6 years ago
Ristaag
*Sorry, naturalization. This is coming from the son of a legal immigrant, for reference.
Posted by Ristaag 6 years ago
Ristaag
It always tickles me to hear people praise the naturization process and 'legal' immigrants when they have absolutely no idea what a labyrinth the process is.
Posted by FunkeeMonk91 6 years ago
FunkeeMonk91
Thanks. You've been a great opponent. If you ever want to debate anything else, I'll gladly accept your challenge.
Posted by ericjpomeroy 6 years ago
ericjpomeroy
On your profile, it has the things that you are for and against, me and you disagree on 58% of things, so I knew there would be some diversity to the debate. I thought it would be fun to debate you on this because your previous debates have been interesting. Not to judge, but most liberals I debate with just start name calling and getting off topic. I thought this would be a refreshing change.
Posted by FunkeeMonk91 6 years ago
FunkeeMonk91
ericjpomeroy,

I'm just curious. Why did you challenge me to this debate? How did you know I was against your contention?
22 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 21 through 22 records.
Vote Placed by Ristaag 6 years ago
Ristaag
ericjpomeroyFunkeeMonk91Tied
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Vote Placed by FunkeeMonk91 6 years ago
FunkeeMonk91
ericjpomeroyFunkeeMonk91Tied
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