The Instigator
actionguy777
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
A341
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Illegal Immigrants should be deported, anchor babies or not.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
A341
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 776 times Debate No: 78708
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

actionguy777

Pro

Illegal immigration is a huge problem these days. Mexicans find ways across the borders without legally entering the country. Now, these illegal immigrants are living in our country, supported by taxpayer dollars. What do we do with these immigrants who committed a crime to get here? Well, we let them stay and not be criminally prosecuted. An illegal immigrant who has a child while in America, even as an illegal, can stay. Their child gets citizenship because of the 14th Amendment, and we can't deport them back to Mexico, because that would be "wrong".

If you accept this debate, please be civil. I would prefer not to hear Democrats calling me a "racist" or using any term of the sort. Here's how this debate will work;
Round 1: Opening arguments
Rounds 2 and 3: Continuing arguments and Rebuttal
Round 3: Full Rebuttal and Conclusion

Let the debate about illegal immigration begin.
A341

Con

Immigration of almost any kind (legal or illegal) has a positive or at very least neutral impact on the economy [1] because of this they are not depriving the existing population of the US of anything and in fact help to improve the standard of living of the american people.

Furthermore the number of children per women in most developed countries including the US [2] is falling meaning that the only way that the US (and a number of other western nations) can sustain their populations is through allowing significant amounts of immigration and deporting millions of people will not help with it.

[1] http://www.thefiscaltimes.com...

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
actionguy777

Pro

Illegal immigrants are NOT good for the economy. The 1st source you cited is about LEGAL immigrants. Remember, this debate is about illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants get privileges paid for by tax dollars. They get free health care and education that the middle class has to pay for. And remember, most of these illegals don't pay taxes. Illegals also steal jobs from regular American people. This means that illegals ARE damaging our economy. [1]
Consider the fact that Mexico is a bad country in general. Since we have pretty much open borders, the states bordering Mexico will have to endure gangs and drug cartels that come from Mexico. [1]
Also, is it really relevant to mention population decline? Is that such a bad thing?

[1] http://www.wvwnews.net...
A341

Con

Rebuttal

"Illegal immigrants are NOT good for the economy. The 1st source you cited is about LEGAL immigrants. Remember, this debate is about illegal immigrants."

I am aware, the studies behind that article refer to both legal and illegal migrants. Also can you show a serous reason to separate the two?

"Illegal immigrants get privileges paid for by tax dollars. They get free health care and education that the middle class has to pay for."

Under very limited circumstances they do however this is not at all the vast majority of illegal immigrants. The only program you could site for this is education which the US has to provide due to article 26 of the UDHR [1]. The other issue with education is that the money isn't lost, it's put back into the hands of the teachers, those who make the equipment for schools ect and this most certainly does not harm the economy.

"Illegal immigrants get privileges paid for by tax dollars. They get free health care and education that the middle class has to pay for. And remember, most of these illegals don't pay taxes. Illegals also steal jobs from regular American people. This means that illegals ARE damaging our economy."

To claim that illegal immigrants don't pay tax is entirely false, most forms of tax are unavoidable. For the working class (which most illegal immigrants belong to) a much larger percentage of their income is taken by regressive taxes (like sales tax). It is be correct that they don't pay quite as much tax as do other Americans of similar income but they do still pay a significant amount in tax.

However this also isn't a serious argument when most poorer people do not save much (if any) of their income [2], this means that they re-inject what money they do make into the local economy rather than removing it from the economy and making it untaxable.

"Consider the fact that Mexico is a bad country in general. Since we have pretty much open borders, the states bordering Mexico will have to endure gangs and drug cartels that come from Mexico."

This is irrelevant to the immigrants and no... hezbollah is not operating in Mexico...

"Also, is it really relevant to mention population decline? Is that such a bad thing?"

Yes. At the very least population decline is linked to catastrophic economic consequences [3].

Continued Argument

As one of the richest countries on the planet the US has a moral obligation to take in citizens from poorer nations and this is morally intuitive to third party observers of the situation. Even if you want to dismiss your moral obligation acting in a pathological manor significantly damages the image of the US abroad. This is the case in much of Europe where as a result the people are marginally more likely elect less pro US governments which will damage the US geo-politically. However where this really matters is in the Islamic world where you give groups like Daesh and Al Qaeda invaluable propaganda material. In summary ignore your obligations to humanity at your peril.

[1] http://www.un.org...
[2] http://money.cnn.com...
[3] A Concise History of World Population by Simon Smith Kuznets
Debate Round No. 2
actionguy777

Pro

"I am aware, the studies behind that article refer to both legal and illegal migrants. Also can you show a serous reason to separate the two?"

Illegal immigrants have not immigrated legally, usually don't acquire citizenship, and live in the shadows. If an illegal immigrant gets in a car crash, they will be driving away and you have to pay for it.

"To claim that illegal immigrants don't pay tax is entirely false, most forms of tax are unavoidable."

Illegal immigrants of some kinds are not used to paying taxes. If they didn't pay taxes in Mexico, will they pay them here? Illegals, as I said, live in the shadows, and pay much less, if any taxes.

"(Gangs and drug cartels) are irrelevant to the immigrants."

False, if we have open borders (Which we pretty much do right now), they can come across with no consequences and continue their crimes in America.

"the US has a moral obligation to take in citizens from poorer nations."

Sure, we do have that obligation. And yes, we should accept legal immigrants. However, ILLEGAL immigrants entering the country is unacceptable. They need to go through the process and become legal. Otherwise, you're basically asking for criminals to be in our country.

Continuing Arguments:
Illegal immigrants generally don't learn English. This means that we have millions of new people who speak Spanish and not English, meaning they cannot communicate with a lot of the population. Illegals (and some legals, but that's beside the point) don't bother learning English. This could lead to American culture being damaged as a whole, since they choose not to assimilate into our culture.

Most of my info comes from: Adios, America! by Ann Coulter
A341

Con

"Illegal immigrants have not immigrated legally, usually don't acquire citizenship, and live in the shadows. If an illegal immigrant gets in a car crash, they will be driving away and you have to pay for it."

I showed a study that showed that immigrants if anything reduced the crime rate, do you have a source that shows what you claim?

"Illegal immigrants of some kinds are not used to paying taxes. If they didn't pay taxes in Mexico, will they pay them here? Illegals, as I said, live in the shadows, and pay much less, if any taxes."

My point was that much tax is unavoidable so it's meaningless if they choose to pay it or not and much of that money they don't pay goes to fuel the economy anyway and so will end up as tax.

"False, if we have open borders (Which we pretty much do right now), they can come across with no consequences and continue their crimes in America."

No this debate was over the migrants not the larger consequences of having an insecure border with a developing nation. Therefore this is irrelevant.

"Sure, we do have that obligation. And yes, we should accept legal immigrants. However, ILLEGAL immigrants entering the country is unacceptable. They need to go through the process and become legal. Otherwise, you're basically asking for criminals to be in our country."

The legal process is exceptionally difficult, I suggest you look at what it actually takes to get a US visa [1] let alone a permanent one. Most people have no choice but to live in mexico in poverty or violate US law in order to seek a better life.

"Illegal immigrants generally don't learn English. This means that we have millions of new people who speak Spanish and not English, meaning they cannot communicate with a lot of the population. Illegals (and some legals, but that's beside the point) don't bother learning English. This could lead to American culture being damaged as a whole, since they choose not to assimilate into our culture."

Culture is not a static entity to be protected but rather it is a fluid entity that takes in new circumstances and adapts to them. However I would point out that the US integrated large numbers of Spanish speakers before. In the 1840s the US annexed most of northern Mexico (basically what now makes up the south west US) in the Mexican American war.

Today the descendants of those who lived in the annexed land are fully integrated with american culture and I would be shocked if any still spoke Spanish fluently. In fact most were integrated by the end of the civil war just 20 years later and I doubt this has had a negative (or even significant) impact on US culture.

[1] http://london.usembassy.gov...
Debate Round No. 3
actionguy777

Pro

Full Rebuttal:

Illegal immigrants do in fact increase crime. You know all of those drug cartels and murderers in Mexico? Guess what, they're coming here illegally. How in any does having drug cartels and murderers LOWER crime? [1]

Having an insecure border with a developing nation is relevant, because it means more illegals can come here, and we don't deport them, which encourages more illegals.

The process to get in does take time and effort, but it's better than having to live the rest of your life knowing you're a criminal.

Those Spanish people you mentioned? They were forced to come here and assimilate, because no one else spoke Spanish. Now, however, we have so many illegals coming in that they don't even bother learning Spanish, because we've become pretty much a bi-lingual country where you don't even have to speak English.

Conclusion

Illegal immigrants are a problem that this country needs to face head-on, for these reasons:
-They are a drain on our economy by avoiding taxes and getting free welfare.-
-They increase crime because they've come from a crime-rich country.
-They choose not to assimilate into our culture, choosing not even to learn English.

That is my conclusion. Back to you, Con, for your rebuttal and conclusion.

[1] http://www.infowars.com...
Many of the other things that have not been cited come from Ann Coulter's Adios America! (The Left's plan to turn our country into a Third World hellhole)
A341

Con

Rebuttal

"Illegal immigrants do in fact increase crime."

No, I've already showed that studies show that there is no link between immigration and crime [1].

"You know all of those drug cartels and murderers in Mexico? Guess what, they're coming here illegally. How in any does having drug cartels and murderers LOWER crime?"

I've also already pointed out that this is a debate about migrants rather than the larger consequences of having an insecure boarder with a developing country, if you wanted to debate securing the boarder make a debate about securing the boarder. Remember many migrants from Latin America to escape the high crime rate [2].

"Having an insecure border with a developing nation is relevant, because it means more illegals can come here, and we don't deport them, which encourages more illegals."

As I previously said if you want to debate the consequences of having an insecure border create a debate on the insecure boarder not the migrants.

"The process to get in does take time and effort, but it's better than having to live the rest of your life knowing you're a criminal."

No, you actually cannot get in. If you lack any kind of specialist skills or a spouse with US citizenship you will find it almost impossible to gain entrance to the US through any kind of legal path.

"Those Spanish people you mentioned? They were forced to come here and assimilate, because no one else spoke Spanish. Now, however, we have so many illegals coming in that they don't even bother learning Spanish, because we've become pretty much a bi-lingual country where you don't even have to speak English."

Well no there were hundreds of thousands of hispanic people living in the US in that part of the 19th century and they could have easily created their own community but they didn't. The same will happen with latin american migrants today.

Conclusion:

Illegal migration is necessary to the US economy in the absence of a significantly reformed immigration system.
There are no significant economic or social long term effects of illegal migration.
Deportation significantly hurts US interests abroad.

Therefore it is preferable no to engage in mass deportation.

[1] http://www.cato.org...
[2] http://www.washingtonpost.com...
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Philocat 1 year ago
Philocat
I think it was close, but Con just edges it in terms of strength of arguments.

The sub-debate over crime was won by Pro. Whilst Pro's conjecture that immigration would increase crime makes sense theoretically, this is negated by statistics provided by Con. Pro doesn't address the data presented by Con.

The point about tax is won by Pro. Whilst he is correct in surmising that illegal immigrants are clandestine and therefore can easily avoid paying tax, Con points out that some forms of tax are unavoidable. However, this doesn't really negate Pro's point because the fact remains that only *some* forms of tax are unavoidable, leaving the avoidable forms of tax unpaid.

Finally, Pro makes a strong case from cultural damage from illegal immigration. The point central to this argument was that illegal immigrants do not assimilate with American culture. However, Con's rebuttal is strong enough to defeat the argument. Drawing upon historical evidence from the Mexican-American war of 1840, Con demonstrates that, since the Latin-Americans assimilated with American culture in 1840, it is fair to say that they will assimilate in 2015.

Therefore, Con wins two of the sub-debates whereas Pro only wins one. Con therefore wins overall.
Posted by Wylted 1 year ago
Wylted
I have some stuff to do, but one of you guys pm me if it gm gets near the end of the voting period, and I haven't voted yet.
Posted by actionguy777 1 year ago
actionguy777
The purpose of this debate is about illegal immigration and deportation in general. Anchor babies are a part of it that I felt needed mentioning, but anchor babies are NOT the sole purpose of this debate.
Posted by katie.snappy 1 year ago
katie.snappy
I would be interested in accepting, but am a little unclear on the topic. Is the sole focus of this debate whether or not illegal immigrants should be deported regardless of anchor babies? In the description it sounded like you were involving other aspects. Just wondering.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Philocat 1 year ago
Philocat
actionguy777A341Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.