The Instigator
RepublicanView333
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points
The Contender
ojmartinez25
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points

Illegal Immigration

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Con Tied Pro
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/5/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,597 times Debate No: 1372
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (27)
Votes (15)

 

RepublicanView333

Con

ojmatrinez...

what can i say...

you are an arrogant immigrnt who thinks its anyone's priviledge to just come here and be a citizen w/ out doing any work...

i've seen all your debates and you seem to believe being neioghbor to another country gives them the right to just come here when they get tired of there own country...

" I also tink that we should open the border with all central,and southern latin americans. We are like brother or sisters with them."

We are not brothers and sisters with them...we are people who worked hard for our freedom and they are just people who take the easy way out...and you are no different...look at the three sections of a debate i will show you:

"If all of the illegal immigrant that make up 5% of the american population were gone tomorrow, accordingly about 5% of jobs would be left empty tomorrow. all of these niches would be UNFULFILLED. it is important that we not just send them all away. in fact, you admit this yourself by claiming that there is a problem because they take a lot of Jose from americans. on subject: you back up your argument by saying "the illegal immigrant our taking jobs from our impoverished that would love the job." anytime that anyone ever takes a job, they are destroying the hypothetical opportunity for another to have that job.
these immigrants came here for reason. they came hereto make money because where they came from they were surrounded by poverty. they deserve those jobs, just as much as the next impoverished guy. most illegal immigrants are certainly in poverty.

a problem with your solution that I would like to throw out now, is this:
a large amount of illegal immigrant come here and then have children. these children are natural citizens. tell me:
would you only deport the parents, leaving the children to be orphans, or would you deport the children too, who never broke any laws, are natural citizens, and who you would be putting them in a state of poverty? this is only one of many examples of the various complexities of a project of this magnitude and impact"

This is a section from my debate: "Illegal Immigration: Should we deport all illegal immigrants we find in the U.S."

So heres's another one:

"If all of the illegal immigrant that make up 5% of the american population were gone tomorrow, accordingly about 5% of jobs would be left empty tomorrow. all of these niches would be UNFULFILLED. it is important that we not just send them all away. in fact, you admit this yourself by claiming that there is a problem because they take a lot of Jose from americans. on subject: you back up your argument by saying "the illegal immigrant our taking jobs from our impoverished that would love the job." anytime that anyone ever takes a job, they are destroying the hypothetical opportunity for another to have that job.
these immigrants came here for reason. they came hereto make money because where they came from they were surrounded by poverty. they deserve those jobs, just as much as the next impoverished guy. most illegal immigrants are certainly in poverty.

a problem with your solution that I would like to throw out now, is this:
a large amount of illegal immigrant come here and then have children. these children are natural citizens. tell me:
would you only deport the parents, leaving the children to be orphans, or would you deport the children too, who never broke any laws, are natural citizens, and who you would be putting them in a state of poverty? this is only one of many examples of the various complexities of a project of this magnitude and impact"

From his debate "immigration"

Now here's my last one:

"If all of the illegal immigrant that make up 5% of the american population were gone tomorrow, accordingly about 5% of jobs would be left empty tomorrow. all of these niches would be UNFULFILLED. it is important that we not just send them all away. in fact, you admit this yourself by claiming that there is a problem because they take a lot of Jose from americans. on subject: you back up your argument by saying "the illegal immigrant our taking jobs from our impoverished that would love the job." anytime that anyone ever takes a job, they are destroying the hypothetical opportunity for another to have that job.
these immigrants came here for reason. they came hereto make money because where they came from they were surrounded by poverty. they deserve those jobs, just as much as the next impoverished guy. most illegal immigrants are certainly in poverty.

a problem with your solution that I would like to throw out now, is this:
a large amount of illegal immigrant come here and then have children. these children are natural citizens. tell me:
would you only deport the parents, leaving the children to be orphans, or would you deport the children too, who never broke any laws, are natural citizens, and who you would be putting them in a state of poverty? this is only one of many examples of the various complexities of a project of this magnitude and impact"

From his other debate "should illegal immigrants ive in the Unites States"

Noy martinez...i don't expect you to use info from other debates...i want your current thoughts...and i don't want you trying to fake me out b/c it won't work...I expect debate in which it opens your eyes to the hardships illegals are causing the country you CURRENTLY live in...
ojmartinez25

Pro

Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.

Border Patrol officers in Phoenix, Arizona, check a bus depot for illegal immigrants in June 2006.
Jorge Mendez, dressed as Santa, participates in a march for immigration rights in Phoenix, Arizona, this week.
For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.

And by all appearances, it's starting to work.

"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."

Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.

"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."

He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."

"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."

There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona, especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.

State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.

"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."

Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.

Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally.

"Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."

When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.

She said the flagging economy, particularly in the construction industry, also is contributing to an immigrant exodus.

"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."

Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.

"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."

He said he's not surprised illegal immigrants are leaving the state and predicts that more will go once the employer-sanctions law takes effect next month.

"It's attrition by enforcement," he said. "As you make this an unfriendly state for lawbreakers, I'm hoping they will pick up and leave."

http://www.cnn.com...
Debate Round No. 1
RepublicanView333

Con

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM............................

ojmartinez.......

Well, clearly you are so, so, so...in your eyes...clever...

Did you think i wouldn't notice that you copied and pasted your arguement from a newspaper...the Arizona Associated Press...and use it as your own...and the newspaper didn't even help you...

Your arguement just said how the crackdown on illegals is making "illegals lives so tough and it isn't fair" well boohoo...I used this in my other debate but it is essencial to proving my point to you about illegals:

Here's the break down:

Illegal immigrants pay approximately 16 Billion dollars per year in taxes.

Sounds pretty good right?

This is how much they cost us:

They cost Arizona taxpayers alone over $1 billion annually in services for schools, medical care, welfare anchor babies, loss of tax base and prisons.

Illegal aliens displaced American workers at a cost in excess of $133 billion dollars last year according to Harvard Professor George Borjas.

75 percent of drugs arrive from Mexico at a net cost of $120 billion hard currency that leaves our country for good. In addition, our tax dollars pay $80 billion for the War on Drugs each year.

$1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons "not to mention TV, movies, weight rooms and other entertainment" they enjoy while being incarcerated.

The average annual cost per child K-12 is $7,161.00 and exceeds $109 billion annually per cycle of anchor babies. That is your money given out to 300,000 moms and their kids annually and all they did was get pregnant and birth that child on U.S. soil.

Average bilingual education is $1,200.00 per illegal alien student. We educate 1.1 million illegal alien children each year. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003.

The average head of household illegal alien costs you $2,700.00 in welfare money over and above any taxes he or she pays in their meager paying jobs. With 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, that figures exceeds $20 billion of your tax dollars.

$56 billion in pure cash illegal migrants sent to their home countries last year and every year? That's after their kids enjoyed free education, free lunches and free medical care paid for by you. Mexico receives $15 billion annually from its worker drones. No wonder Vicente Fox sent us 9.2 million illegal alien Mexicans so far.

The lifetime net fiscal drain "taxes paid minus services used" for an adult immigrant is $55,200.00. $27 billion to provide forms, ballots, interpreters and brochures for languages other than English

It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually. California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, BUT four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care.

Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits. The total of illegal aliens flooding into the United States this year will total three million "enough to fill 22,000 737 Boeing airliners, or 60 flights every day for a year".

oj you do the math

Lucky i did the math for you. and if you doubt my mathematical abilities you can check me

In all that's $789,263,000,000. Lots of money isn't it. If you divide it by 50 that's 1,578,526,000 dollars per state. Over one billion dollars per state. I know that some states, particularly the border states pay more in the cases of Texas and California and Arizona lots more but in all even you can't say that's not a lot of money.

So if your illegal immigrant friends want to live here this is what i ask you and them to do...go back to Mexico...round up 800,000,000,000 dollars and then comeback and you can live here for another year for another year...we'll call it your tax...something you evidently don't know about...

So, next round...right your OWN WORDS, don't copy and paste them...USE YOUR OWN WORDS to debate me...To me your last arguement was as good as a forfeit...
ojmartinez25

Pro

ojmartinez25 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
RepublicanView333

Con

Well, lets see.

I'm kinda ticked right now, im tired, stressed, and to top it off my opponent has forfeited....

So, t oback it up here is my first choice for solution for illegal immigrants.

We build a giant catapult, similiar to what the Romans had to lanch fireballs. We will give it a nive gold plated bucket so its pretty sweet lookin. We get our minute men to scare them into it by waving tax forms at the illegals...then when the bucket is pretty full i cut the rope and BAM problem solved...
ojmartinez25

Pro

ojmartinez25 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
RepublicanView333

Con

Ummm....not much to say sop to speed it up ill just say this...

Illegals cost us $789,263,000,000, money that could go to the War...our economy...Medical Reasearch...many things...so get illegals out of our country for the better...
ojmartinez25

Pro

ojmartinez25 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
RepublicanView333

Con

RepublicanView333 forfeited this round.
ojmartinez25

Pro

ojmartinez25 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RepublicanView333 8 years ago
RepublicanView333
Now for all the racist crap flying around...like Capt. Herp said when did Illegal become a race...to be racist you have to aim it towards a specific race...illegals could be irish, chinese, veitnamese, german, south african, costa rican, cuban, and last but definatle (oh most definitly not at all least) mexicans...now...it doen't bother me to be called racist but beware b/c others might not be so nice about having "racist" thrown at them.
Posted by RepublicanView333 8 years ago
RepublicanView333
How did i "justify" anyone of my ancestors actions? Alli said that technically they weren't the illegal ones which taoryn accuses them of being, then you "try" to aid me in my "conversation" with taoryn but then flip flop (much like John McCains opponent Mitt Romney [had to throw that in :-)]) and start accusing me of justifying there actions...
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
Herp, you are not understanding at all. go back and read my original comment and you will understand. I am saying that it is silly to blame someone over the actions of thier ancestors, it is pointless, which is why I am saying that it is silly of you to get mad over the whole of latin america because of something thier ancestors and mother country did. My comment had NOTHINg to do with immigration, it had to do with R-view's apparent justification of europes actions.
Posted by taorayn 8 years ago
taorayn
RACIST!!!!!! LOL But who can blame you? Your whole society raises you from a base of fear that encourages racism in white Europeans just so that the privileged white male stays in power and everyone who is not a white male is in the position to be exploited or exterminated (that includes white females)...

And bropatriot if your government wasn't built upon exploiting people of color I don't doubt that there are Americans (of every ethnicity) that would work as hard as Mexicans, but America is built upon the notion of cheap/exploitive labor and anyone they can get over on they do, but at the expense of raping the Mexican economy and leaving many Mexicans so poverty stricken that they have no other choice than to come here to work, but also at the expense of taking jobs away from "lazy" Americans. Or they simply throw everybody in jail where they can get slave labor for free without the option of workers quitting, striking, or forming unions and even that is a phenomenon that plagues people of color communities at a far larger rate than it does Caucasian Americans...

NAFTA "hurts" everybody except BIG BUSINESS/The US and Mexican government elite...it serves to make the rich richer and keep the rich, rich, the poor, poor, and the white middle class fearful and racist so that there is no expansive upheaval that would threaten the capital and lifestyle of the wealthy. They figure as long as hate and racist attitudes distracts the public no one will notice how messed up and oppressive these systems are...but it's funny how Indigenous people in both countries are finally fighting back...but I don't think FOX news reports stuff like that...and so you all remain ignorant...
Posted by taorayn 8 years ago
taorayn
If history didn't have any bearings upon what happens today then many of the debates of the day wouldn't be happening such as this one because if history didn't matter then the Mexican government would have been ignored the falsified treaty of Guadeloupe as the BS document that it was since after all it was signed by the ex president who was in exile then bribed and tortured into signing the thing and even still the European whites of the States found it necessary to change and manipulate the document until they "legally" had the ability to occupy the lands from Texas to the coast of Califas. And by the way Harlan I'm not attacking anybody, I'm attacking the ideology, especially the Eurocentric RACIST attitude that would still assert that their European ancestors are the ones who brought "law" to this continent, totally ignoring the fact that the many Native tribes had many laws and rules that in theory the White Europeans should have adapted to, but because they were savages they set about to massacre and exterminate an entire two continents of people...

And Herp, get it right, yes, Mexico and most of South America was colonized by the Spanish which produced a Mestizo culture and people, but in Mexico there is still racism/colorism because there are white people there too, (Europeans/the Spanish) but most of the people in abject poverty are the Indigenous people of Mexico whose situation is a testament to the effects of history and the Spanish color caste system. In the media (which is RACIST) I'm sure all you are aware of is the light skinned Mexican say Jessica Alba (who denounces being Chicana), but when speaking of human and immigrant rights it is usually a conflict for the Indigino (think George Lopez). Even you referring to Mexicanos as "Hispanics" is inaccurate and nobody said illegal is a "race" and why are you generalizing "American" to mean "Cacusoid" and why are you taking some quote from the Neo Nazi website to represent all Chicano's? Cuz ur
Posted by Capt.Herp 8 years ago
Capt.Herp
Ah, so if it happened an arbitrary length of time ago that you set, it's not important. Got it.
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
Herp, that was compltely unrelated to modern day issues. In fact Cortez's massacre was what I had in the front of my mind when writing that. This is an unrelated issue.
Posted by Capt.Herp 8 years ago
Capt.Herp
All you morons whipping "racist" out of the bag here -- we have Hispanics saying things like "we'll outbreed their aging white population." Who's racist again?

Illegal is not a "race." As a matter of fact, Hispanics are classified by biologists as Caucasoid. And what "race" do Americans belong to again? Does that count the blacks, Asians, and Indians who live here?

And Harlan, we keep hearing about the "Europeans" massacre of the Indians. How come no one mentions the SPANISH massacre of the Aztecs in Mexico? Just where do you think the Spanish language came from? A European country named SPAIN, maybe?

Illegals break the laws from the moment they sneak across the border, whether they're from Mexico, China, Iraq, or Sweden. They're raping the US economy and destroying the environment by leaving trash while they wait by the thousands to be picked up. They're stealing Americans' Social Security numbers to get jobs, and guess what? The Americans whose numbers are stolen get hit by the IRS for the taxes that the illegal NEVER PAID.

Racist my butt.
Posted by brotherpatriot 8 years ago
brotherpatriot
Heard McLame offer someone $50 an hour to pick lettuce in one of his speeches. Said that no white American would do it! Im white and would take the job. Cant be as hard as being a Logger. Can it?
Now, Someone explain why every dang thing we buy is either made in or assembled in Mexico or China. Mainly Mexico and no jobs there? Huh? Nafta, whos it really hurting again? And last thing, History has no bearing on the present and future of the cost of Illegal Immigration. Illegal is not Immigration by the way.
Posted by badboy72 8 years ago
badboy72
i dunno rep... ur being biased and racist... if i recall immigrants help the economy..... they take the jobs that u wouldnt do
15 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Capt.Herp 8 years ago
Capt.Herp
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by AZTeacher 8 years ago
AZTeacher
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by badboy72 8 years ago
badboy72
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by tarsjake 8 years ago
tarsjake
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by kels1123 8 years ago
kels1123
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by righty10294 8 years ago
righty10294
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by BronxBomber7 8 years ago
BronxBomber7
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by BB1 8 years ago
BB1
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Bigmomma1 8 years ago
Bigmomma1
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by texasrulz10 8 years ago
texasrulz10
RepublicanView333ojmartinez25Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30