The Instigator
frank_gore_is_da_best
Con (against)
Winning
43 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Pro (for)
Losing
27 Points

Illegal Immigration

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Con Tied Pro
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/9/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,872 times Debate No: 1608
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (18)

 

frank_gore_is_da_best

Con

I hear people saying illegal immigration helps our economy. I however, have to disagree with that.
These are some facts about illegal aliens:

- The cost of illegals in K-12 grades is over 13 billion and growing every second.

- There are over 21 million illegal aliens in this country.

- There are over 4 million children of illegals in public schools.

- There are 667,781 illegal immigrant fugitives.

- There are 355,077 illegal immigrants incarcerated. The cost of these incarcerations is over 1 billion.

http://immigrationcounters.com...

Another problem is illegal immigrants pay no or very little taxes. Here are some facts:

- Most illegal aliens do not receive a typical paycheck with tax deductions. Instead they are paid in cash and do not pay taxes. Even when they do pay taxes (only possible if they use fraudulent social security numbers or government assigned ID tax numbers)their little income is not enough to pay for the medical expenses and all the expenses for all the children they give birth to. Illegal immigrant women have thousands of babies per year, free of charge and can't afford them once they give birth. Most learn to work the system so they get cash assistance and food stamps.

- Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

http://www.freerepublic.com...

Another argument I hear is "Illegals do the work Americans won't do. I am sorry but that is garbage.

- Prior to 1965 when the immigration bill was passed, there was very little immigration.

- In fact, between 1925 and 1965, there was even a period of net immigration out of the U.S.

- During that time, the grass was being cut, the meat was being packed, the children were watched, the households were cleaned, and everything else people say we couldn't do without illegals was happening. The idea that we suddenly can't run a country without these illegals is garbage.

- Those in favor of forien labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They benefit from it. Their benefits come at America's taxpayer's expense, when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

- Illegal aliens are NOT doing work Americans won't do. What jobs won't Americans do? In most states, Americans still clean their own houses, do their own landscaping, clean hotel rooms, work in restaurants and fast food places, paint houses, DO CONSTRUCTION WORK, work in airports, etc. just like we have the past years before "our" government allowed these people to invade our country. There are 18 million Americans who cannot find a job, so illegal aliens who are coming here to work do so at peril to American workers.

http://www.theamericanresistance.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com...

One problem we face with illegals are the growing crime rates.

- In 1980, our Federal and state facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens but at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in U.S. correctional facilities, as follows

46,000 in Federal prisons

74,000 in state prisons

147,000 in local jails

- To give you an idea of "how much crime," as noted in Illegal Alien Crime Wave in Full Swing, in April 2005, the GAO released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003. It found the following:

Of the 55,322 illegal aliens studied, researchers found that they were arrested a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien.

They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien.

49% had previously been convicted of a felony, 20% of a drug offense; 18% a violent offense, and 11%, other felony offenses.

81% of the arrests occurred after 1990

56% of those charged with a re entry offense had previously been convicted on at least 5 prior occasions.

Defendants charged with unlawful re entry had the most extensive criminal histories. 90% had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, 50% had been arrested for violent or drug-related felonies.

Note the last two points – they mean the perpetrators were "previously deported.

CRIMES (actual arrests)
1. Number In USA
2. By illegal aliens

Total
1. 14,094,186
2. 704,709
Murder & non-negligent manslaughter
1. 14,062
2. 703
Forcible rape
1. 25,528
2. 1,276
Offenses against family & children
1. 129,128
2. 6,456

- A government agent Mac Johnson set out to investigate the number of homicides perpetrated by illegal aliens. He found that between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the U.S. are murdered annually by illegal aliens. If he's right, that would represent between 11 percent and 15 percent of all murders in the U.S.":

Using the mean of Mr. Johnson's range, that means there are 2,158 murders committed annually by illegal aliens – crimes that never would have happened if they weren't here. This is part of the collateral damage of tolerating illegal immigration.

Note that at 2,158 murders that would be 15.3% of all the murders reported by the FBI, which would be about three times the representation of illegal aliens in the general population.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com...

Those are crimes in general. Here are some sex crime facts about illegals:

- Researcher Deborah Schurman-Kauflin Ph.D. of the Violent Crimes Institute, reports on the analysis of 1,500 violent crimes from January 1999 through April 2006 that included serial rapes, serial murders, sexual homicides and child molestation committed by illegal aliens. The data is found in her report, The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants in the United States, which notes that, based on a figure of 12 million illegal immigrants and the fact that more of this population is male than average.

The study breaks down the 1,500 cases reviewed this way:

525, or 35%, were child molestations
358, or 24%, were rapes
617, or 41%, were sexual homicides and serial murders

- "In those instances, the illegal immigrants typically gained access to the victims after having worked as a day laborer at or near the victims' homes." "Victims ranged in age from 1 year old to 13 years old, with the average age being 6."

- Schurman-Kauflin states that the illegal alien population includes 240,000 sex offenders – a "conservative estimate," she says. She goes on to say, "This translates to 93 sex offenders and 12 serial sexual offenders coming across U.S. borders illegally per day." She points out the 1,500 offenders in her study had a total of 5,999 victims, an average of four victims for each sex offender and says, "This places the estimate for victimization numbers around 960,000 for the 88 months examined in this study."

http://www.usillegalaliens.com...

Those are my views on illegal immigration and these are facts supporting my views. Good luck to my opponent.
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

I oppose public schools, and so any costs illegals might "add" only help the economy in the long run by exposing the fatal error behind the schools in question and quickening abolition.

The same with other entitlements. So entitlements are out of the question for the rest of your argument.

Lou Dobbs is full of crap with that prison population figures. Less than 8% of US prisoners are noncitizens, according to the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, a rather credible source on the matter.

The economy doesn't consist of "whether the jobs would be done anyway by Americans." The fact is, the jobs done by illegals are done better and/or cheaper by illegals. That means the economy benefits. I don't care whether you say "oh it's just the corporations..." guess what? This computer of yours was made by a corporation. If corporations don't benefit, neither do you. People do not automatically become nonpeople, just by being corporations, and more money in the economy means more money available to invest in new businesses that employ YOU. Socialists like Lou Dobbs have things to learn about what an economy is and how it benefit. And as for the taxpayer argument... Guess what, until we fix the entitlements, everyone, including the taxpayers, is a burden to other taxpayers. That's one of the good things about capitalism, when you get it completely, people aren't seen as a burden.

Oh and "prior to 1965, there was very little immigration" is a blatant lie. Maybe for a certain period before that, but not infinitely before that, most people here descend from immigrants. The ancestors of nearly the entire US population somehow don't come across as "very little.'

Keep in mind that without the drug laws, most of these illegal alien crimes don't occur. The solution then is not to get rid of the illegal aliens but the drug laws. And if all immigration is legalized, guess what? You get a more accurate sample of the potential immigrants, rather than just the ones willing to break laws.

Your "11 to 15%" crap is the worst sort of statistical lie. You are claiming estimated total murders (way above the ones arrests were made for) as a percentage of ARRESTED murders, rather than a percentage of estimated total murders. In other words, Mac Johnson never took a statistics class, nor a logic one. Considering how arrests naturally skew towards "arrest the brown guy" it would be far more rational for Mac Johnson to estimate that, considering how about 2% of murder arrests are of illegal immigrants (the statistics you put above the mac johnson bit), the actual percentage is EVEN LESS.

Your stuff on the sex crimes does not compare at all to the total population, and thus is mere pathological argumentation.

All of your arguments reek of collectivism, judging everyone in a group by the actions of some.

Guess what? Deporting immigrants won't reduce the number of crimes they commit, it will simply give them insulation from US police, until they've built up their little gangs into big gangs into governments come to attack us with armies in the name of their poverty.

What is the solution? Capitalism. Free trade, free labor, no immigration laws, people thought of as individuals and earning what they get. No tax-based entitlements for anyone to drain. When there are too many people, don't ship the problem somewhere else when you know they'll ship it back, just stop reproducing so much.
Debate Round No. 1
frank_gore_is_da_best

Con

Thank you for accepting my debate Ragner.

Your Argument: The economy doesn't consist of "whether the jobs would be done anyway by Americans." The fact is, the jobs done by illegals are done better and/or cheaper by illegals.

My Response: Illegals do the jobs for a lot less pay because they want whatever they can get and people will not pay them more than they are getting paid. For the statement that the jobs are done better is not true. My dad is a home inspector and has done many inspections regarding construction defects. So many of the construction defects are done by illegal aliens who constructed the house. When natives do the job, they do it right. The reason the natives do it right is they are licensed in that profession. Illegals don't have licenses, they only do the work fast and inefficient.

Your Argument: Less than 8% of US prisoners are non citizens, according to the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, a rather credible source on the matter.

My Response: Can you show me the source you got that information from?

Your Argument: Keep in mind that without the drug laws, most of these illegal alien crimes don't occur. The solution then is not to get rid of the illegal aliens but the drug laws. And if all immigration is legalized, guess what? You get a more accurate sample of the potential immigrants, rather than just the ones willing to break laws.

My Response: You cannot say without the drug laws, most of the illegal aliens don't commit crimes because we would have to see that. Keep in mind, they broke the law in the first place by crossing the border ILLEGALLY. They need to enter the country like everyone else, LEGALLY. If we legalize all immigration, our country would become like China. Way overpopulated.

Your Argument: Your "11 to 15%" crap is the worst sort of statistical lie. You are claiming estimated total murders (way above the ones arrests were made for) as a percentage of ARRESTED murders, rather than a percentage of estimated total murders. In other words, Mac Johnson never took a statistics class, nor a logic one. Considering how arrests naturally skew towards "arrest the brown guy" it would be far more rational for Mac Johnson to estimate that, considering how about 2% of murder arrests are of illegal immigrants (the statistics you put above the mac johnson bit), the actual percentage is EVEN LESS.

My Response: Can you show me your source where you got that info from?
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

"Illegals do the jobs for a lot less pay because they want whatever they can get and people will not pay them more than they are getting paid. For the statement that the jobs are done better is not true. My dad is a home inspector and has done many inspections regarding construction defects. So many of the construction defects are done by illegal aliens who constructed the house. When natives do the job, they do it right. The reason the natives do it right is they are licensed in that profession. Illegals don't have licenses, they only do the work fast and inefficient."

For one thing, anecdotal evidence is inadmissible. Your dad can think whatever he wants, but if it were true as a general trend, NO ONE WOULD EMPLOY THEM. They do, therefore they must receive a higher value to price ratio from the illegals than otherwise. Maybe he's viewing the exceptions, maybe he has a bias, maybe just maybe the illegals do make the errors but it's still more cost-effective to fix the errors later than to hire natives to do it the first time. Ask the businesses in question.

My source for the department of justice thing, if I remember right, was right here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov.... It doesn't state percentages, but it states total prisoners and total noncitizen prisoners, do the math and it's less than 8%.

"You cannot say without the drug laws, most of the illegal aliens don't commit crimes because we would have to see that. Keep in mind, they broke the law in the first place by crossing the border ILLEGALLY. They need to enter the country like everyone else, LEGALLY. If we legalize all immigration, our country would become like China. Way overpopulated."

When crimes are committed pursuant of the illegal drug trade, it is obvious without testing, from the theoretical matter, that that crime goes bye-bye when drugs are legal.

China did not get where it was by immigration, it got where it was by reproducing so much. And keep in mind that the reason people move to "overpopulated" places (e.g. cities) is that high population density makes places better! To see this, look at New York versus South Dakota, where would you rather live? Most people pick the former.

And it is the most laughable thing in the world to say "they need to enter it legally." If you outlaw it, they can't DO that. It's not their fault people like you decide to be tyrants and make stupid laws.

My source for the percentages was YOU. YOU said: "
CRIMES (actual arrests)
1. Number In USA
2. By illegal aliens

Total
1. 14,094,186
2. 704,709
Murder & non-negligent manslaughter
1. 14,062
2. 703 "

That means, that if you do the math, illegal immigrants commit, in fact (correcting earlier math) less than 5% of arrests for murders are of illegal immigrants. Factor in the likelihood (unconfirmed I'll grant) but nevertheless a high likelihood forwarded by many studies, that minorities (including illegals) are more likely to be arrested for a given crime than the majority, and the percentage of actual murders is likely far less.
Debate Round No. 2
frank_gore_is_da_best

Con

Your Argument: My source for the percentages was YOU. YOU said: "
CRIMES (actual arrests)
1. Number In USA
2. By illegal aliens

Total
1. 14,094,186
2. 704,709
Murder & non-negligent manslaughter
1. 14,062
2. 703 "

That means, that if you do the math, illegal immigrants commit, in fact (correcting earlier math) less than 5% of arrests for murders are of illegal immigrants. Factor in the likelihood (unconfirmed I'll grant) but nevertheless a high likelihood forwarded by many studies, that minorities (including illegals) are more likely to be arrested for a given crime than the majority, and the percentage of actual murders is likely far less.

My Response: Those statistics are applying a 5% illegal alien participation component. Whether it is 5% of arrests or not, if the illegal aliens had not come into this country in the first place, those 704,709 crimes would not have been comitted.

Your Argument: For one thing, anecdotal evidence is inadmissible. Your dad can think whatever he wants, but if it were true as a general trend, NO ONE WOULD EMPLOY THEM. They do, therefore they must receive a higher value to price ratio from the illegals than otherwise. Maybe he's viewing the exceptions, maybe he has a bias, maybe just maybe the illegals do make the errors but it's still more cost-effective to fix the errors later than to hire natives to do it the first time. Ask the businesses in question.

My Response: That statment is the truth. The reason the construction workers hire the illegals is because of the small amount of money they will get paid to do work. Actually, it is not more cost-effective to fix the errors later. If you do the job right the first time, you won't have to buy more materials to fix the house the second time.

Your Argument: My source for the department of justice thing, if I remember right, was right here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov....... It doesn't state percentages, but it states total prisoners and total noncitizen prisoners, do the math and it's less than 8%.

My Response: Those statistics are from 2005. This is 2008. That info is 3 years old. Get up to date information.
Ragnar_Rahl

Pro

"Those statistics are applying a 5% illegal alien participation component. Whether it is 5% of arrests or not, if the illegal aliens had not come into this country in the first place, those 704,709 crimes would not have been comitted."

Wrong. Most of the crimes relate to a drug market (see CNN documentary breaking point, etc.) Even if you take producers (in this case criminals) out of a market, someone else will fill their place. Because black markets are based on wars for territory and not open competition, there is also no evidence those crimes would have been done even less efficiently. Indeed, you yourself said illegal immigrants do no jobs Americans won't do, guess what? drug dealing is a job.

"hat statment is the truth. The reason the construction workers hire the illegals is because of the small amount of money they will get paid to do work. Actually, it is not more cost-effective to fix the errors later. If you do the job right the first time, you won't have to buy more materials to fix the house the second time."

You have no evidence for this, and the entire history of economics tells me you are wrong, because successful businesses rarely do things that are not cost effective, and successful businesses hire illegal immigrants.

Materials do not necessarily cost more than wages.

"Those statistics are from 2005. This is 2008. That info is 3 years old. Get up to date information."

Your statistics are no more recent. In any case, the situation doesn't appear to have changed drastically in the past 3 years.

You have yet to address the argument that all of your arguments rely on collectivist premises, which necessarily judge the innocent for the actions of others.

Human beings have rights. You do not have a right to prevent them from going anywhere except your property.
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
How on earth would Africa get here? They can't pay for that many ships. So you are just making crap up :D...

and wait the borders have sovereignty now? Sovereignty means rule. That means the borders rule you in your model. If the borders don't rule you, chaos would rule the world? That's not coherent let alone true.
Posted by mmadderom 8 years ago
mmadderom
"National sovereignty" is just an excuse people use for enslaving other people."

You've got to be kidding. If countries didn't enforce the sovereignty of their borders chaos would rule the world.

There are many many millions of people who wish to come to the United States, the whole of Africa for example, you would simply open the door and let them all in without recourse. Do you not understand the ramifications of such a policy? Total economic collapse, for starters.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
The only sovereignty that may be justly recognized is that of the individual. "National sovereignty" is just an excuse people use for enslaving other people.
Posted by mmadderom 8 years ago
mmadderom
"The United States of America is not private property mmaderrom."

Absolutely it is, the whole of it is, not just parts of it. That's what sovereignty is. Go to any other sovereign country in the world uninvited and undocumented and see what happens to you.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Joe, this site is not about ad hominems, it is about intelligent debate. I support anyone who acts rationally in the pursuit of actualizing their right to life and the attendant rights of liberty and property, and that includes illegal immigrants.

I think people must be voting on their gut rather than the debate, because all frank gore did here was spam statistics and completely ignore the ethical question as to whether those statistics matter. They are free to do so, but if they act with the same degree of rationality in their everyday affairs, they deserve what is happening to them.
Posted by JOE76SMITH 8 years ago
JOE76SMITH
Pro you have to be out of your mind to support illegal immigration!
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
The United States of America is not private property mmaderrom. Certain parts of it are, such as the various yards and fields that the owners INVITE the immigrants to, to do the work.

Drea, it's not bull, it is the facts of how people act. Even in China, people move from the underpopulated countryside to the "overpopulated" city. Why? Because they like it better there.

Frank Gore, empirical data about what kind of profits the construction companies are ACTUALLY MAKING disproves your assertions about lawsuits.

And if the party enacting a law has no right to enact it, yes, people do have a right to break it, ipso facto. It's called the right of liberty, the one that let's them cross the borders.
Posted by drea10113 8 years ago
drea10113
i just wanted to say something about ranger who said people move to places because their are so many people is just bull. China is not a happy place to live in. Jobs are extremely hard to get and even a simple job at McDonald requires college experience. i dont want america to end up like that. we dont need illegal immigrates
Posted by mmadderom 8 years ago
mmadderom
"Human beings have rights. You do not have a right to prevent them from going anywhere except your property."

Which in this case would be...The United States of America.

Case closed.
Posted by frank_gore_is_da_best 8 years ago
frank_gore_is_da_best
Materials do not necessarily cost more than wages.

Another thing ragner. If the house owner sues the construction workers, and wins, the construction workers have to pay for the owners lawyers fees. That is about 1500-3000 most times. Getting the work done right the first time is more cost effective than doing it over the second time.
18 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by FemaleGamer 7 years ago
FemaleGamer
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Guderian 7 years ago
Guderian
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by InquireTruth 7 years ago
InquireTruth
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Ped-X-ing 8 years ago
Ped-X-ing
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by lorca 8 years ago
lorca
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by mscolorado 8 years ago
mscolorado
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by Smarticles 8 years ago
Smarticles
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by SCOTTMILLER66 8 years ago
SCOTTMILLER66
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by JOE76SMITH 8 years ago
JOE76SMITH
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by griffinisright 8 years ago
griffinisright
frank_gore_is_da_bestRagnar_RahlTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30