The Instigator
Capt.Herp
Pro (for)
Winning
43 Points
The Contender
maxh
Con (against)
Losing
22 Points

Illegal immigration is endangering and destroying American safety, finances, education, and culture.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 10,094 times Debate No: 1258
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (45)
Votes (19)

 

Capt.Herp

Pro

The invasion of the United States by illegal aliens, primarily over our southern borders, imperils the country's financial, educational, and medical institutions, our environmental quality, and in fact, the very culture of the United States.

For years, the willful misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which was originally written so that children of slaves freed after the Civil War would be considered citizens but now taken to mean that anyone who runs into the US and gives birth has created an instant citizen, has created havoc. These children, termed "anchor babies," – another current term for these children is "jackpot babies" – are called this because once a baby is born, it needs parents to support it, and thus becomes the "anchor" for an unending stream of relatives streaming into the country to keep this "citizen" alive.

This was never the intent of the 14th Amendment, as noted, as clarified by Senator Jacob Howard (one of the amendment's authors) in 1866:

"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."

Additionally, because employers, who apparently care more about making more money than they care about their country or the kind of country they leave behind to their children, or about humane treatment of people, are thrilled that they can employ people at slave wages and not have to pay the government taxes on behalf of these people, because there is no documentation of their being in the United States. In short, they are creating a "magnet" for people to run into the country who have no interest in the country other than what they can earn and send back to their home country. Because these employers know that their illegal workers cannot complain to anyone about their working conditions or wages, they pay them the minimum amount to keep their businesses working.

When Ronald Reagan had a moment of failure to think ahead, he allowed illegal aliens in the country to obtain "amnesty," but that was supposed to be the end of it. Unfortunately, it wasn't. Now, because it is ingrained in society that "if you are born in the United States, you're automatically a citizen," we have a constant stream of people sneaking into the country simply to have children, who will then be "entitled" to all the benefits available in the US without having any allegiance to the country.

As a member of one group concerned with watching our borders and ending illegal immigration, I have seen evidence, on the Arizona border, with my own eyes. Acres of trash have been deposited in previously pristine deserts and mountains by thousands of illegal aliens as they stop in staging areas on our side of the border, waiting to be picked up and ferried to all points in the US to begin working. These people are commonly led across the border by guides, called "coyotes," who often take advantage of these people by deserting them or even killing them in the desert, after first raping women and stealing their startup money. We have even seen shootouts between rival groups of border crossers, who are not just people looking for a new way of life; often these are gang members or drug smugglers.

Jobs that were usually assumed to be taken by high school kids for after-school work or summer jobs are now mostly held by illegal aliens (fast-food restaurants, etc.). Hospitals are going bankrupt because, again, under the misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, they give free medical care to non-citizens. Schools are overloaded (my wife, a teacher, had 20 of her 28 students not show up for school on a May 1st "protest" by illegal aliens because their parents dragged them along to the protest to swell their numbers). Illegals are often involved in traffic accidents and get off scot-free because they have no insurance and no documentation. Additionally, it has been repeatedly stated by Mexicans that they believe this is really their country, and that they intend to get it back, termed "reconquista."

When Americans began to stand up and take notice, they were immediately termed "racists," or "anti-immigrant." The charge of racism is, on its face, ridiculous if for no other reason than Mexicans are not a "race." Most Mexican nationals are classified as Caucasoid, mixed with the genes of the native Indians, whose country they conquered under the leadership of Spanish conquistadors.

Because they have no interest in becoming Americans, and no allegiance to the country that gives them all their benefits, and plan, as one Latino politician imprudently stated, to "outbreed their aging white population" and retake the country they consider theirs, Mexican illegal immigrants are in the process of ruining the country.

In any case, this involves more than just Mexican illegal aliens, but all people who illegally enter the US with no intention of becoming citizens. Mexicans are simply the largest numerically. It also involves lax control of our borders, which, in a post-911 world, we can't afford.

Therefore, I unequivocally state that illegal immigration endangers our nation on many and varied fronts and needs to be stopped now.
maxh

Con

How do illegal immigrants have a negative effect on the American economy? Many of the jobs they take are the sort that people don't want, such as cleaning public toilets. Although some jobs they take are the sort students take part-time, there are other jobs students can take. I, for example, take computer repair jobs, which in the past few months has made me more money than the "McDonald's" job you talk about. I'm sure many other students have similar stories.

You claim that illegal immigrants "endanger and destroy" American education. But the evidence you provide for that is an anecdotal story of twenty students skipping a class once. How does this destroy American education? The students who remained in class still were educated as they would be on any other day, were they not? If they weren't that is a problem with the teacher, not the students. The students who were out can either figure things out on their own, or be lacking in their OWN education. This does not "endanger and destroy" American education. Even if they are accepted as Americans (which I believe they are, though you seem to disagree), it does not have impact on the average education level of Americans-- almost everyone takes many days off school during their time there.

You claim that illegal immigrants "endanger and destroy" American safety. But your evidence for this is that smugglers (of both humans and drugs) fight each other. This only effects the safety of those people who take such jobs. You also say that smugglers sometimes abandon or kill the people they pretend to help. But this is a risk that illegal immigrants are taking. Again, accepting them as Americans does not help your argument, as they remain a small subset of "Americans".

As for the claim that immigrants destroy American culture-- what happened to the melting pot?

Would you agree that those of European descent should leave the country because the Native Americans were here first? No? The Europeans did almost completely wipe out the native people. But the Europeans don't seems to be declining in America now.

You also say there are "acres" of trash on the Arizona border. I find this difficult to believe. Could you point me to a picture? Even if it exists in such large amounts, what proof is there that it was caused by illegal immigrants? And, although unsightly, how does it endanger and destroy American safety, finances, education, and culture?
Debate Round No. 1
Capt.Herp

Pro

1.How do illegal immigrants have a negative effect on the economy, you ask? You note that many of the jobs they take are jobs people don't want. Of course they don't want them, at the wages employers pay illegals. That being said, this is the second-most asserted statement, right behind "this is a nation of immigrants."

Here are some statistics from a current study shown at fairus.com about how they effect JUST THE ECONOMY IN ONE STATE:

FAIR estimates that the annual fiscal burden on Iowa taxpayers today from illegal immigration is at least $241 million. That equates to an annual cost of about $172 per native-born headed Iowa household after accounting for taxes collected from illegal workers.

•Education. Based on an estimate of 8,645 school-age illegal aliens and 12,100 U.S.-born children of illegal aliens in Iowa and estimated per pupil costs of $8,450 per year for public K-12 schooling, Iowans spend about $175.3 million annually on education for the children of illegal immigrants. An additional estimated $13 million is being spent annually on programs for limited English students who are likely children of illegal aliens. More than four percent of the K-12 public school students in Iowa are children of illegal aliens, and this share has been increasing as the illegal resident population increases and the overall public school enrollment has decreased slightly
•Health care. State-funded uncompensated medical outlays for health care provided to Iowa's illegal alien population amount to an estimated $48.3 million a year. This estimate does not include higher medical bills and insurance costs that Iowans who have medical insurance pay to cover the costs of those without insurance.
•Incarceration. The uncompensated cost of incarcerating deportable illegal aliens in Iowa's state and local prisons amounts to nearly $4.9 million a year. This estimate excludes compensation from the federal government, short-term detention costs, related law enforcement and judicial expenditures, as well as the monetary costs of the crimes that led to incarceration.

You can find the entire PDF file for this study at http://www.fairus.org... . These include educational, medical and legal costs.

As to "jobs other people don't want," Americans traditionally took those jobs before employers discovered that they could pay illegals pennies on the dollar for doing the same work, and that the illegals had no alternative but to accept what they were paid. I, for instance, made $2.00 an hour in the 70s for a summer job shoveling out accumulated sheep manure from barns. Odd that I, as an American, would take that kind of work.

2.The claim that illegals endanger and destroy American education is far from anecdotal, as noted in the Iowa statistics above. That is a first-hand account of actually witnessing the event, plus any schoolteacher in the state of Arizona can give you documentation of similar circumstances. That being said, without paying taxes, illegals receive free educational services for their children without contributing to the tax bill, which means legal citizens have to cover the cost. Do you like that? I don't. Additionally, now we have illegal immigrants trying to demand in-state tuition rates for college, while legal citizens from other states would still have to pay out-of-state tuition. You believe that's anecdotal, also?

3.Not only do they kill each other, they bring drugs into the United States and are involved in gangs all over the country (MS-13 being prime among them). Additionally, they have an inflated rate of crime in proportion to their presence here; a Phoenix police officer was just murdered by an illegal alien who had been deported several times and just ran back over the border.

It has been asserted by Representative Steve King of Iowa, who had statistics to back this up, that many more people have died at the hands of illegal aliens since 911 than the number of Americans actually killed on that date.

Additionally, I can point you to a congressional report detailing the terrorist threat to the United States on our southern borders, aided and abetted by illegal aliens and their guides entitled A Line in the Sand (it's a PDF file and takes a while to load, but it's very enlightening): at http://www.cap-s.org...

Additionally, since you're talking about endangering and destroying American safety, in addition to murder, rape, and traffic accidents caused by illegal aliens, I can point you to any number of links showing intelligence gathered that have members of the terrorist group Hezbollah being taught Spanish and how to fit in with groups of Hispanics sneaking into the US.

Here's a sample:

http://www.foxnews.com...

http://www.jihadwatch.org...

http://www.kvoa.com...

Are you happy about that in, as noted, a post-911 world? IEDs and documents in Arabic, along with clothing bearing patches linked to terrorists groups, have been found along the southern border. The lack of border enforcement, coupled with using Mexicans as a cover for entrance to our country to do our nation harm, is the cause of much concern among THINKING Americans.

4.The melting pot idea is fine. As of now, however, it seems that the pot itself is melting, or that American culture is fast turning from a culture created by assimilation into a salad bowl, rather than a "melting pot," where diversity and allegiance to one's home country is more important than allegiance to America. Theodore Roosevelt warned us about "hyphenated Americans" being worse than not being Americans at all, and thought, back in the early 1900s, that people who cared more about where they came from than about America should be sent back home.

5. What's always neglected in this attempt at an argument is mentioning how the Spanish enslaved and/or murdered the native population of Mexico when they conquered it. That seems to be unimportant. In any case, do the Spanish get a free pass, while "Europeans" do not?

6. At your disbelief at my assertion that they have deposited acres of trash on our borders: Sure, I can point you to pictures of places I have personally been. Here are a couple links, which depict but the "tip of the iceberg":

http://members.cox.net...

http://members.cox.net...

And while I realize you're trying to be clever here, the trash is more to do with environmental damage in the US than it is with "American safety, finances, education, and culture." Continuing to parrot that phrase gains you nothing. It's more than "unsightly." It damages formerly undamaged natural environment and harms native species of animals and plants.

In short, the illegal invasion imperils our country on MANY fronts. That you choose to continue to disingenuously lump everything together, over and over, does not negate that. I believe not only that you are attempting to be cute at the expense of an actual debate, but that you aren't 14, either. That being said:

IMMIGRANTS, who come legally and want to assimilate into our culture rather than to import their culture into the United States, have always been welcomed. That being said, this "jobs Americans won't do" statement, repeated over and over, is demonstrably false. Employers have just learned that they can pay illegals a lot less to do these jobs and get away with it.
maxh

Con

1. The problem with the statistics from FAIR is that FAIR has an agenda of reducing immigration. Therefore, their assumptions will be biased towards that agenda. If this is an "I have big names" battle, then I could cite SPLC calling them a hate group, articles from The American Prospect, etc.. But even if these numbers are taken as fact, would people complain if we spent that money on Mexican schools? Why is it bad that we're spending it on US schools that Mexicans attend? My point in saying that the jobs taken are those that are undesirable was that it encourages Americans to take better jobs. Did you like the type work you did for $2/hr, or that you were paid for it? Today's students can still get jobs, just not the same ones, and many students will take jobs where they enjoy the work.

2. Many American citizens do not pay taxes, either. Why do their children get free education, but not the children of illegal immigrants? You also say that children of illegal immigrants are asking for in-state tuition rates. Aren't they residents of the state? Why shouldn't they qualify?

3. Some illegal immigrants form gangs, but so do many people who are not illegal immigrants. The number of victims of 9/11 was 2,999. In 2003, the number of people killed by car accidents was 42,884. If we assume that illegal immigrants caused 25% of those accidents (and it is very unlikely the number is this high), people here legally caused 32,163 fatalities in 2003-- more than ten times the number killed on 9/11 in ONE year, not a bit over six. Even if illegal immigrants are involved in more crime (which I'll accept for argument), your premise is that they "endanger and destroy American safety, finances, education, and culture". I doubt that crimes are destroying our education and culture. But do illegal immigrants perpetrate disproportionately more violent and financial crime? If so, that helps your argument. Otherwise, it has nothing to do with your argument. And what does Hizbollah disguising themselves as illegal immigrants have to do with actual illegal immigrants committing crime? They could just as easily disguise themselves as students. Are students a threat to American safety?

4. What evidence is there that illegal immigrants care more about their home country than America?

5. What do what the Spanish did have to do with what is happening now? I only brought up what Europeans did as a parallel to what the Mexicans are now doing.

6. So the trash is real. But, again, what evidence is there that it was left by illegal immigrants? It may be close to where many of them come from, but it's IN America. Furthermore, your position is "illegal immigration is endangering and destroying American safety, finances, education, and culture" (I am repeating this because it is the subject of debate). It does have a negative impact on the environment. But that's not what we're debating. We're debating your position. The trash, as you've admitted, has nothing to do with that.

You say you do not believe I am 14. How old do you think I am?
Debate Round No. 2
Capt.Herp

Pro

You know, one of the things that characterizes people who don't intend to debate at all, is that they never answer statements – they just ask more questions. There is no problem with those statistics. Did FAIR just make them up? Just because I believe the Southern Poverty Law Center is run by a communist, that doesn't mean that I can discount any statistic offered by them if they are legitimate, as this is. It's very convenient to say: "I don't like that group, so I'm going to discount their statistics." Sorry but those statistics, as are all the other ones in all the other links given to you, are what you're getting, so you can rebut them, but trying to send me off to get more when you'd just do the same thing is not going to work this time.

Why should Americans spend money on Mexican schools? Mexico should spend money on Mexican schools, which is the point: they don't. There's an upper class with a lot of cash, and there's a lower class who is treated shamefully by their government and forced to come here. And why? Because it's in the government's best interest, when the second-largest source of Mexico's income is money sent back to their country by the United States.

1.The difference is that whether or not there are American citizens who don't pay taxes, they are – drumroll – American citizens. And no, illegal alien children are here illegally in violation of the 14th Amendment. If your response is to ask me if that's their fault, my response will be: no, it's not their fault, but it's not America's responsibility to give better benefits to people who aren't actually citizens than to people who ARE. Whether or not you agree with that, that's the way it is. America is not responsible for supporting the economy of a third-world nation, just because Mexico's government treats Mexico's people like garbage.

2.Hezbollah is using our open borders to their advantage by using Mexican immigrants with which to blend in. It's been observed by many that they could easily do so, since people from Arabic countries share many of the same characteristics. Learning Spanish is just another way to do this. But then, again, you knew this, I've already said it, and it was easier for you to ask a ludicrous question about why Hezbollah wouldn't disguise themselves as students than it was to answer me. In short, you have nothing to offer, and you're trying to sidetrack the debate. I have a feeling the audience is seeing through the tactic by this time.

3.The evidence, as already stated, is that the money sent home to Mexico by illegal immigrants from that country amounts to the second-largest amount of money Mexico receives in its economy. Additionally, a preponderance of Mexican flags waved at protests by protesters who supposedly want to become part of this country, in tandem with such things as "Go back to Europe!" signs and shouts of "Si, se puede!", as well as most of them not even attempting to learn passable English anymore is a pretty good indication of their preference. They want to bring their country with them, and it's quite evident.

4. What do the Europeans have to do with what the Spanish did then? YOU brought up Europeans, but you conveniently neglected the counterpoint, so I thought I'd give it to you.

5.Yes, the trash is real. Here's a link to a note I found in the middle of some of it (I assume you speak Spanish, so I'll let you translate it): http://members.cox.net...

Let's call destroying our natural landscape in America part of destroying our culture, since that photo and the others are on private property of a rancher who has owned that land for over 100 years. So much for trying to ignore that part.

Additionally, in that mess, we found packets of chemicals, printed in Spanish, which induce labor in women. In short, they want to jump-start the anchor babies when they get here. Almost every bottle, can, and article of clothing we find has Spanish writing on it. Unless an airplane from Spain occasionally flies over the southern border and dumps trash out, I would assume that the trash is dropped by illegals, and it is in fact commented on repeatedly by environmental groups and the US Border Patrol. In short, stop being purposely obtuse. Playing dumb and asking ridiculous questions is not the way to "win" a debate, which you haven't.

Furthermore, no matter if you're 14 or not, and I teach 14-year-olds myself, I doubt there's been very many who know words like "apocryphal", so I believe not only that your profile information is dishonest, but that you had no intention of debating. You just wanted to question me to death and send me running off for different statistics so that you could ask some more questions. I gave you much more than I needed to give you. It's up to you as to whether or not you can "man up" and accept it. I just KNOW you're going to ask a bunch of questions in your final response that you know I won't be able to answer, because you get the last word, but regardless, I win, America's behind me, and so are the facts.

Have a good day.
maxh

Con

I did not claim that FAIR made up the statistics. I claimed that their biases would cause them to get certain statistics and interpret them in ways that further their cause. I brought up SPLC as an organisation that supports my viewpoint, just as FAIR supports yours.

Americans should spend money on Mexican schools as part of foreign aid. But as giving more money to some of our schools helps Mexicans and full-blooded Americans, it works out to a great bargain.

1. The children of illegal immigrants are US citizens. You claim this is only through willful misinterpretation of the fourteenth amendment. Let's seee what the fourteenth amendment says in regards to children born in the US. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." No one is "misinterpreting" that to allow children of illegal immigrants to be citizens. If the intent of that part of the amendment was to allow the children of former slaves to be citizens, that could have been done by executive order.

2. Hizbollah using open borders to sneak in as illegal immigrants is not "illegal immigrants" causing problems. It is terrorists causing problems. That's why I brought up the idea of Hizbollah sneaking in as students-- we see no problem with students, so that part of your argument is wrong.

3. Perhaps Mexicans are telling us to "Go back to Europe!" because we are telling them to "Go back to Mexico!". Parts of what is now the US are former Mexican lands (parts of Texas, Arizona, Nevada, and other states). Perhaps that is why some Mexicans are claiming this is really their country (as you said in round 1)-- part of it was their country, and they want it back. If Canada took Alaska, we would want it back. Mexicans want their land back.

4. I brought up the Europeans because they (and many Americans are of European descent) came in (against the wishes of the people here), but now we will not allow the Mexicans in.

5. Okay then, the trash is detrimental to society. I'll agree with that. But our society is still around, and seems in no danger of vanishing.

Remember, your goal was to prove that "illegal immigration is endangering and destroying American safety, finances, education, and culture." You have shown some examples of damage caused partly (perhaps even mostly) by illegal immigrants, but you have not shown that there is destruction of American safety, the American economy, American education, and American culture. The attacker must vanquish. The defender need only survive. Or, as applied to this debate, you must prove that illegal immigration is destroying all of American safety, finances, education, and culture to win. I must only prevent you from proving it.

I agree that illegal immigration is a problem, but not nearly as severe as you claimed. I feel obligated to defend illegal immigration, because for many Mexicans, it is the only option they have for a good life. We should be glad that people are willing to go through so much to be in America. If anything, it is a HELP to this nation.
Debate Round No. 3
45 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by kels1123 6 years ago
kels1123
maxh , 11-4 Herp won.I think it is self explanatory.
Posted by Capt.Herp 6 years ago
Capt.Herp
Who made up that rule? You? Seems pretty convenient. You got any citations that LIST specific "rules"? Sorry -- sounds like sour grapes to me.

Stick a fork in it. It's done.
Posted by maxh 6 years ago
maxh
@brotherpatriot
Did you read what I said? I admit that the majority of people voted for herp. I said that by the rules of debate (specifically, that if the instigator does not prove the entirety their position, the contender wins), I win. Herp did not prove the entirety of his position.
Posted by brotherpatriot 6 years ago
brotherpatriot
No, you lost by the majority of the votes. Unless of course democracy doesnt play hand in hand in any debate. If that be the case then my gosh, how did we ever get the DOI,or the Constitution?
And Cap's stance happens to be the posistion of what? 70% of Americans?

Poleeese!
Posted by maxh 6 years ago
maxh
>> You didn't read the opening paragraph, maxh. Can't tell a >> book by its cover, and you can't tell a debate by a
>> one-line title.

That's not a title, it's your position. I did read your first paragraph, but your position is not true, so I win (not by votes, perhaps, but by the rules of debate).
Posted by Capt.Herp 6 years ago
Capt.Herp
Good link. It must be biased. LOL!
Posted by brotherpatriot 6 years ago
brotherpatriot
Tell it to the families of these victims..
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org...

Double dog dare lets see em.....

Good call, I wait to see this myself.

tic, tock, tic, tock, tic, tock
Posted by Capt.Herp 6 years ago
Capt.Herp
"I can turn around and give you just as many statistics that show how illegal immigrants help, but you'd argue they were biased. Its exactly the same."

I double-dog dare you. Let's see 'em.
Posted by arrivaltime 6 years ago
arrivaltime
No, see, you're holding a double standard. I never said you were an old fart who was stupid--

My point about the gang signs and the two latino girls flashing gang signs is that's EXACTLY what the Americans are like where I live.

The people holding the American flag do not mean to be disrespectful, and the only ones who would chew a vet out for dragging a flag are people who are ultra conservative or looking for a fight.

I don't see what the man bringing a flag in has to do with anything. You don't know him, you don't know his intentions.

I am not supporting illegal immigration but I do think showing me a couple random pictures isn't going to convince me that all of them are evil and want to destroy our culture.

I can turn around and give you just as many statistics that show how illegal immigrants help, but you'd argue they were biased. Its exactly the same.

I didn't say you were racist. But you are blanketing when you say that illegal immigrants are screwing up the countries safety and culture. Not all illegal immigrants are violent, not nearly as many as you'd love to imply, and not many illegal immigrants like to run around with their flag tattood to their face saying "Hey, look at me, I'm an illegal, arrest me now".
Posted by Capt.Herp 6 years ago
Capt.Herp
By the way, those are Hispanics, not "black people."
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Vote Placed by momagic 6 years ago
momagic
Capt.HerpmaxhTied
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