The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
5 Points

Illuminatti, do they really exist? If yes, should we take any action for the Olympics of 2012?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/30/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,536 times Debate No: 24918
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)




Ok, so I am trying to understand if this "Illuminatti" elite really exist and want to conquer the world. I am 60% positive that they exist and 30% positive that they have some kind of relation with Demons and other supernatural entities. However, I might say that I am not a really devoted Christian and I am not religiously biased. My concern started when I started speculating some events for the London Olympics 2012(as I am Greek and the olympics are a great deal to me). I have watched documentaries like Zeitgeist and other conspiracy theory themed ones and I have some background information.
So the event that trigured my attention was the Olympics of London 2012. First I saw a giant black widow spider monument called the "spirit of zionism" in the center of London. When the mayor was asked why this statue was build, he replied " to continue with the spirit of zionism". Now as far as I remember, Zion has to do with the illuminatti and the jews such as Rockfeller, Rothchild etc. who dominate the world.
So I researched a little more, and it came to my attention, the Olympics logo. It spells ZION. Now that can be a coincidence too? Another information I came across was an undercover journalist that found 200,000 body bags under the Olympic stadium. Now this can be true or fake information but I can really see that there is something going on. In London, there are 100,000 troops to secure the city from a terrorist attack? More soldiers than they deployed in Afghanistan? Battleships in river Thames and so many cameras?
I researched more, and I found a card game called Illuminatti card game created by Steve Jackson Games This game was created in 1985 and it depicts event from the future for example 9/11 and the pentagon depicted as being destroyed. What made me have goosebumps was the fact that a card that I saw, depicted Big ben being destroyed and 5 people that are wearing the olympic games colours (red, blue, green, black and yellow).
1985 guys.. I researched a little more and I found that if these Illuminatti people exist they have been usiing through media and movies a psychological technique to prepare us for future events with hidden messages so our subconscious will be already informed and accept the event as something not that important. This technique is called Predictive Programming. There are a couple of those that you can see here . This episode of Xfiles- The lone Gunmen predicts precisely the 9/11 scenario.
Now I am pretty sure that if everybody researches a little bit, they will see all the scenes of Hollywood that have hidden messages like this.

The scenario that most people believe will happen is a "terrorist attack" in London that will start a world war III against Arab nations. To be honest I think that we are in a very difficult period of time, quite similar to the Great Depression Period, that followed a rise in nationalism and the World War II. In Europe for example, there is a big dispute between northern European countries and Southern ones, due to the eurozone crisis. Levels of extreme nationalist parties are going up significantly. So are the preparing us for a world war III that will create the basis for one leadership? A New World Order? Is this why London is full of troops?
Finally, why is there some global meetings for leaders around the world with closed doors such as the Bildeberg and the Bohemian Growth? That is illegal, and why are our leaders talking under the table with each other? Whats the point of all these?
I am sure that something is wrong. Someone could tell that by watching the most weird Olympics opening ceremony.


Alright, I plan to go through this quite quickly. I am hoping to show problems with each of my opponent's statements, and show how the evidence in favour of the Illuminati comes down to Pareideola.

Pareidolia is, basically, the phenomenon which happens when we perceive recognizable patterns in randomness, even though the patterns really aren't there. For example, random symbols may look like a word, or blotches may make a face.[1]

The effect is very common, and we all suffer from it: it's part of our basic instinct which kept us alive, and now helps us socially. Now, I am not going to comment on incredibly vague statements such as "I have some background information" as I can't really say much about it, as I don't know what that information includes. However, I can split up what is clear and specific.

The "Spirit of Zionism"

I was going to say that my opponent has fell to severe misinformation that many Conspiracy Theorists fall prey to. I was going to point out how this statue is actually called Maman, was revealed in 1999 (I saw it myself 3 years ago), and Boris Johnson did not comment on it at all. Then I found the original source of this claim[2], and scrolled down. It is a satire. It isn't real, even from the original source So firstly, the spider is much older than the Olympics, it doesn't represent Zionism (it represents a mother, of all things), it is not called The Spirit of Zionism, and Johnson, the mayor of London, did not comment on it, and the original source is explicitly stating satire.

The Olympic Logo

The logic behind this is a fun example of Pareidolia. Look at 10. Looks like IO, in letter form, as many seem to point out. Add the "2". It looks a bit like a Z. And on its side, it looks a bit like an N. So when you see a futuristic, frankly stupid, design of the 2012 logo, read it as if it stated 2102, and 'voila!', you've got Zion. Now me, I see Lisa giving Bart a blowjob. Now google 2012 Olympic symbol, and see if you can see it too. You can't unsee it. This is how pareidolia works: when you've been led to a conclusion, you stick with it, no matter how fallacious the reasoning to that point is. Simply put, to make 2012 into zion is a very difficult leap, and the coincidence is purely at the fact that "1" looks like "I", 0 looks like "0", and "2" looks like "Z". And for me, it still spells ZOIZ, not ZION.


Firstly, the dead bodies claim is uncited. Why? Because it's false. Not much else to say. The 100,000 soldiers claim? Also false: there are around 10,000 private guards with 1000 soldiers because the private industry couldn't do their job[3]. And the only battleships in the Thames are defunct, and the HMS Belfast, where it is in its mooring.

Card Games and X-Files

This is also short. The Card Games is uncitable, unless you own the cards. Which I don't. Nor can I find.

Also, the X-Files one. This is a very interesting case because it seems so convincing. But what is the show again? It's about a worldwide powergroup taking over and doing stuff while the X-File team tries to stop them, in essence. There are nearing a dozen series of the show. And in a one minute clip, they very roughly predict an event where a plane bombs New York. Not who does it, not why they do it (but in the episode, it is for different reasons than 9/11 predictions and reality). The only real prediction is that many shall claim it was them, and we know that from precedence: terrorist groups always want to take credit for attacks on their opponents. It's just the way the world works. In short, the X-Files clip is pretty vague. But when we appoint Pareidolia, when we are told the link, it becomes clear, due to suggestion imposed onto us to find this link.

The rest of the paragraph is vague statements with no citation, evidence, or general truth to be testable. The Illuminati controlling us through the media is something that is by definition true, though: after all, in the words of the Illuminati game: "Maybe the Illuminati are behind this game. They must be—they are, by definition, behind everything". This is the brilliance of the Illuminati. They are the New Age of the gaps. Why did this guy get assassinated? Illuminati. Why did my candidate not win the election? Illuminati didn't train him.

The idea of predictive programming is one of note, though. Mostly because googling it comes with this link[4]: the single most idiotic review of Starship Troopers: Marauder I have ever read. The writer, thinking himself as a genius for his observations (obvious in the quotation: " Seemingly every government official is wearing an army uniform, a type of which is strongly reminiscent of wartime Nazi Germany indeed. Coincidence? I think not."), essentially states the purposeful point behind the films. This is because the inventor of this term and this popularism doesn't undertand in the slightest what films are, how they work, or what they do. This is the other major problem of conspiracy theories: the inventors of the ideas are almost always misinformed. Misinformed to such a degree that the perfect cover for the Illuminati, supposing its existence, would be to allow these groups to exist!

The illegality of "global meetings for leaders around the world with closed doors".

It's not illegal.


The general evidence is quite weak. Most is based off of falsehoods, the rest based off of misunderstandings or incredibly vague sentiment. I await my opponent's next round.

1 -;
2 -
3 -
4 -

Debate Round No. 1


Achilles_13 forfeited this round.


Extend all arguments.
Debate Round No. 2


Card Games and X-files
Here is the link of the card game that was introduced in 1982
It is right here on wikipedia
Now, about the x-files episode, it shows exaclty what happened on 9/11. The video that i have already posted shows exactly what I mean. "Terrorist Nuke" – This card is one of the most shocking of all, especially in light of the fact that this game first hit the specialty stores in 1995! How in the world did Steve Jackson know that the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center were going to be attacked? In fact, this card accurately depicted the World Trade Center attack in great detail. This card accurately depicts several facts of 9/11 — on cards created all the way back in 1995! The picture accurately depicts:

* That one tower was going to be struck first; this picture accurately depicts the moments between the first tower strike and the second.

* The card accurately depicts that the place of impact is some distance from the top of the twin towers. The plane hit in this approximate area of the first tower. How in the world could Steve Jackson know this fact?

* The card accurately depicts the Illuminati leadership by showing on the building to the extreme left of the card the Illuminist pyramid with an all-seeing eye in the middle.

* The caption at the top properly identifies the perpetrators of the attack as "terrorists"

The fact that 9/11 was an inside job, is accepted by 89% of the american people. It is scientifically proven for both 9/11 and the attack on the pentagon that the story told by the US government was unreliable and full of scientific errors. The fact that Al quaida is a fake thing created by the US government to support "war on terror" is well known and recently admitted by the BBC here is the link:

The illegality of "global meetings for leaders around the world with closed doors"

The fact that they are not legal does not mean that they do not exist. They are real. The most known ones are The Bildeberg Group and the Bohemian Grove
These meeting actually exist and in some kind legitimize the existance of Illuminatti in a sence that world leaders have secret meeting to discuss matters that the public must not know.

It found in an investigation from an unknown reporter that there are several body bags. British news channel ITV has whitewashed the Olympics security scandal by failing to mention the explosive revelations of ‘Lee Hazledean', an undercover journalist who infiltrated G4S, the world's largest security provider, and blew the whistle on how 200,000 4-person bodybags (enough to hold 800,000 bodies) have been prepared for a ‘terrorist attack' that could prompt the evacuation of London.

The ITV report focuses on comparatively tame "security breaches" such as improper training of employees and their failure to conduct sufficient vehicle checks in preparation for the London Olympics.

The Olympic Logo
It is clearly shown that there is an unexplained "dot" in the middle of the logo that matches perfectly to form the world ZION. The mascots are one eyed mascots. There are a lot of coincidences, don't you think? The logo CLEARLY SPELLS ZION since the N is different that the Z.

There is a vast amount of information on media and adverts, video games as well who depict the destruction of london as part of Predictive Programming. The chinese ad for UEFA European football cup 2012, and all the olympic ads for london 2012 suggest the destruction of London. Same story as the 9/11.

The facts are given, it is only in the subjective opinion of the individual to decide wether these points are legitimate since there is no way of proving anything unless it happens except the 9/11 incident.


Peter Jackson's Illuminati

The sources to the card game still don't show any link to the claims made by my opponent. Terrorist Nuke is a card in the game, a common card, and no information can be found on it in the two sources, other than it exists. And a terrorist using a nuke isn't an event that, to my knowledge, has ever occurred. Further, the card, if seen, is terrible evidence: the image is a building exploding from two thirds of the way up. It is generic and non-descript[1].# It holds no description to any events, only stating what the card in the game does. The great thing about the card game, though, is Peter Jackon's statements regarding the game: he specifically states (in 1997) "I created the cards in such a [vague]way that... any event in real life happens in this game". In other words, the game itself is so vague that anything in reality can be linked to one of those cards. How did he know the WTC was going to be attacked? He didn't. He designed the cards so that you could link it to the game, with ease.

My opponent's points actually show how vague the statements are, if not predictable. "That one tower was going to be struck first" is a necessity: It'd be more surprising if they happened at the same second! The idea that "the place of impact ... the top of the twin towers" is also unsurprising: I'd be more shocked seeing a plane on the M6 (or a motorway for you Americans ;p) and into a city to drive into the bottom of a massive building. The area of impact is unsurpising, for a terrorist with no knowledge of the buildings. The "card accurately depicts the Illuminati leadership" is also unsurprising: It's a card game based on the Illuminati! And finally, the attack being by terrorists in the image is coincidence. Terrorist attacks were done on major buildings before 9/11 anyway: it would make no sense for the bombing to be on a small suburban estate really, would it?


The video still doesn't. The facts are the same: it is vague. It involves "airline counterterrorism" in "an asassination", saying "a fully loaded 727" leading"dictators...[to] claim responsibility". The first statement is vague, the second statement is false, the third statement is false, and the fourth statement is true if terrorists or dictators launched the attack anyway: it's vague, if not demonstrably wrong.


Claiming things like "89% of the american people" is argumentum ad populum, and holds no truth. The fact that this is uncited shows clearly that this has no basis: a made up figure to grant credibility. Same goes for the "scientifically proven" part: the clear avoidance of citing shows the lack of evidence for the claim. The video posted is a huge red herring: I've wasted 10 minutes watching it, and it claims nowhere that Al Qaeda does not exist: only that some facts has been distorted about Al-Qaeda (such as the Sudanese claiming it has a million members).

"Global meetings for leaders around the world with closed doors"

My opponent misunderstands me. I'll say it again: it is not illegal. And regards to the world leaders having to "discuss matters that the public must not know": try getting your hands on current military documents and dossiers, or general diplomatic meetings. I wouldn't want to speak frankly when the press breathes down your neck. Not only is these meetings unsurprising, the link to the idea of its these groups is still unsubstantiated. Saying these groups existed, and these meetings take place doesn't link the two together anymore than rising Bavarian cheese prices is caused by the resurgence of fundamentalism.


Wonder why the citation for this is a forum post, which cites an unheard of conspiracy-theorist blog believing the world is run by lizards? Wonder why no-one has heard of Lee Hazledean before, yet he is now one of the lead journalists for the ITV on the Olympics (even though all their journalists employed are found on their website, and his name isn't there)? It's because these citations are from those who cite other people, who are citing other people, who originally cite a blog from a guy who made up this person to come up with this argument. When there is no problem with the Olympics, this argument becomes sillier and sillier, and this inexistent man shall fade from history.

Olympic Logo

I still see Lisa sucking off Bart. I still read ZOIZ, not ZION. The random dot also is so far away from the I, it looks more like an attatchment off of the 2. A '2, in reality. The idea that the 2 is a Z is an N is also a gross distorion of the image. It's a case of Pareidolia, like what the number 8008135 looks like in a calculator. Further, the evidence for Predictive Programming is dismissed until the following: a) my opponent can provide a source that isn't a blog, b) my opponent can explain why they did not address my criticism of Predictive Programming, yet still holds this unworking system to be valid, and c) explain why they have suddenly jumped sources to another one, which claims the exact same thing as before.

The Mamman Statue

Notice the complete concedence of this point, without stating it. The reason is simple: my opponent has fell for an article, even though it clearly states it is satirical. The credulous nature of my opponent shows that these events of being convinced by the most blatant comedies itself lays massive doubt on his rational ability. This is a clear concedence.


My opponent's evidence is consistently either inexistent or of such horrible detail or source that they can be quickly dismissed. The interpretation of the evidence is horribly weak. The only true statement that can be taken from my opponent is the statement "there is no way of proving anything" regarding this: the illuminati rests on events happening. No matter what happens, the illuminati can be blamed for them. This is clearly demonstrated by my opponent's argumentation. Thank you.

1 -;
Debate Round No. 3


"Global meetings for leaders around the world with closed doors"
Federal law specifically bars any U.S. citizen without government permission from working with foreign officials on matters of policy. Passed under the John Adams administration in 1799, the Logan Act was amended as recently as the 1990s and, despite almost never being used, remains on the books today. And that, Bilderberg opponents say, means that Americans meeting with foreign officials at the secretive gathering should be investigated and eventually prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
So in conclusion they are illegal and they are really suspicious. Why would all government officials and all the powerful people of the USA would meet behind closed doors to "discuss" about issues that do not concern the people? Here is an article of the Guardian of who attended the meetings.

"This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long... We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis, and the nations will accept the New World Order." - David Rockefeller speaking at the United Nations Ambassadors' dinner. [Sept. 23, 1994].

As you can see, people like David Rockefeller want to invest in to an idea such as the New World Order which is commonly known as a plan of the illuminatti.

Here is the list of Participants An article on RT news says the following:

Around 150 of the world's elite will meet outside of Washington, DC this week at the annual Bilderberg Conference, and although the agenda isn't advertised to the public, some sources are already speaking out about what this year might bring. Officially, the details of each Bilderberg Conference aren't anything its members will go on the record to reveal. According to spectators that have kept a close eye on the event's happenings each year, however, the annual conference has a reputation for being a kingmaker — and an elusive and exclusive one at that.
Here is an NBC video report of Henry Kissinger talking about a New World Order, A global government. He has attended all Bildeberg meetings.

Why is there a need for a group meeting like that and why is it closed door?

OBJECTION. Calling me a liar and saying that my arguments have no basis are at least offensive. Here is an internet vote pole result for what people think about 9/11 on CNN. Here is your source

Bodie bags
Since there is no way for proving my point, I cannot really back up an argument since the source of the particular statement is unknown. However for historical reasons I need to say it in case the worst happens.

Olympic logo
The logo CLEARLY is an anagram of the word ZION. Now this is to the subjective opinion of the individual.

The Mamman Statue
It is not one statue but several around the world.
However it is true that I have not found any legitimate sources on this except some websites that are not so legitimate. However one can think that media are controlled or partially controlled to influence people and do not publish real news but the ones that their bosses want to publish. Example of this is the demolition of the building number 7 next to the Twin Towers on 9/11 where the reporters were saying that the building 7 was destroyed by the falling of the towers were the building was still standing untouched when the reporter was reporting. Here is the video

The fact that the government has staged events such as 9/11 the pentagon attack and the news covering false stories trying to tell lies to the people should be a wake up call for people that there is an elite group of people who run the world and have annual meetings such as the Bilderberg group, that is closed doors to the public and their issues are not to be known.

The fact that 9/11 was undeniably an inside job is proven by the fact that the planes could not have provoked the fall of the towers, the building 7 was demolished just like the towers (with bombs) and the attack on pentagon where the remains prove that there is no way that a plane crashed there as they couldn't find the turbines of the plane
and the wings should had destroyed nearby offices and not just create a whole as if a missile has hit the building. Here is the source with all the information anyone needs to see the proofs of my statement.

In conclusion, it is easy for someone to critisize everything according to logic, however, someone's logic is subjective and influenced by norms of society and by the truth produced by the media. One can say that since media is controlled by rich people and give out information according their needs and wants, it can be said that the legitimacy of the sources appeared to my statements are subjective to the person who reads them and to the historical sequence of events. However, there are some undeniable truths about the 9/11 incident and the Bilderberg group that Scientific facts can back them up and are presented here :
Since the government can lie about killing almost 2,000 american citizens in a day, imagine how reliable our political system is, more specifically, WHO CONTROLS IT?Where is the WMD in Iraq?Where are the remains of flight 77 that hit the pentagon?Why are the mascots of olympics 2012 one eyed? why almost every single ad for the olympics, movies such as G.I. Joe and video games such as CALL OF DUTY MW3 and the euro 2012 chinese ad show the destruction of London? Isn't it all a huge coincidence? Can my opponent clearly answer with HARD facts disprove my facts instead of un-legitimize them with an argument based on "reason"?.


Global Meetings

Three things are wrong with this. Firstly, the Logan Act only refers to when someone negotiates on behalf of the United States, when they have not been granted that right. My opponents interpretation of course would lead to massive arrests: ABC, Fox News and almost all major news companies would have to be closed down for repeatedly stating what countries should do[1].

Secondly, my opponent still hasn't mentioned any of those who have gone to the Bilderberg group who claim to represent America. Of the source provided, the names that stood out as being claimed to represent their country were George Osbourne and Peter Mandelson: two british politicians.

Thirdly, the entire prosecution is completely unsubstantiated: I challenge my opponent to provide any non-partisan evidence that any American who goes to the meetings claims to represent America.

Now, the quotation. These quotations are fun, because it's an endless source which can only be found on conspiracy websites. Seeing as the UN holds all conference transcripts, and looking through them this cannot be found (there wasn't even any events in September 23rd, 1994), the quotation is fake. Two sources: Firstly, the video in which the rest of the quotation is found, without the fake part about the NWO (4:25) and another source stating the correct quote[2]. You may notice my opponent doesn't source the quotation to any video or truly checkable data: this is because this is the bane of the new world theories. Testable, verifiable data is the threat to the illuminati conspiracy.


I am not calling my opponent a liar. The lack of citation is the bane of the conspiracy theorist. This can, of course, be overcome with false sources. My opponent may or may not be lying, but the sources certainly are: this is clear when the source is, a propagandised source promoting the NWO and Illuminati conspiracies. If it was from, for example, the source would be justified, and I would be compelled to agree that many do believe in 9/11 being fake (though this still means nothing: a thousand years ago, no-one believed in electricity and thought that black people were from Satan). Instead, it has fake written all over it. Instead, the Daily Mail, a right-wing leading newspaper in the UK states gets the most generous official percentage of 1 in 7[3].

Body Bags

This has been conceded.

Olympic Logo

It is now an anagram, instead of a word. There is a clear lack of consistency here. And saying it's subjective is true: if you want it to spell ZION, then it will. If you see Lisa sucking of Bart, then you will. Pareidolia, again, is the reason for this.

Mamman Statue

This has been conceded. Seeing as this is about the Olympics, I am not going into 9/11 in much detail otherwise this becomes shotgun argumentation, except that all of these conspiracies have been explained by the authorities, their explanations are backed by science and rationale, and usually came before the conspiracy theories. 9/11 is not the subject of the debate, and is a complete red herring.

Predictive Programming

This has been dropped.

Card games

This has been dropped


Again, this has been dropped.


Some choice quotations: "it is easy for someone to critisize everything according to logic, however, someone's logic is subjective". I am flabbergasted (which is an awesome word) that this is something I have to try and debate: logic is subjective? Let's just dismiss fire as a myth and claim America is actually French. The entire argument is lacking proper, non-propagandised sources. The argument is going through the stages of shotgun argumentation by bringing up red herrings like 9/11 in a debate on the Olympics. But most importantly, it is now dismissing reason. Another quotation: "Can my opponent clearly answer with HARD facts disprove my facts instead of un-legitimize them with an argument based on "reason"?."

I cannot possibly try and debate without using reason. I cannot possibly be expected to explain to my opponent such simple things as how the political system in America works. I cannot be expected in a debate on the Olympics to explain the remains of a plane in the Pentagon in America when the debate is on Britain, 11 years in the future, with no connection other than this invented link of the Illuminati.

I hope we can take the combination of poor sources, misconstrual of fact, and general dropping of arguments into account, as we reach the final round. I remind my opponent, as per common debating convention, that we do not bring up new arguments at that time.

1 -;
2 -;
3 -
Debate Round No. 4


Achilles_13 forfeited this round.


I can't really respond to anything, and I've said all I can, but I shall go over the voting:


My opponent has forfeited twice.


The sources I have used have been clear, but most importantly I have pointed out the strong bias in my opponent's sources, while actively engaged in refuting the source as well as the argument presented.

Convincing argument

It would be unfair to state if or why my argument is more convincing: this comes down to personal opinion. However, I will say this: my opponent has dropped many points of contention in my favour. I have done so with none.

Thank you for reading. I await voting.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Vantrigar 4 years ago
There's a very simple question you have to ask yourself here: are there simple explanations for each of the 'suspicious' phenomena you've described, and are these explanations each more likely than there being an all-powerful secret society orchestrating each of them? As with msot conspiracy theorists, you've commited a logical error of poor economy, similar to the theist position that God, an infinitely complex being, is the SIMPLEST explanation for the complex phenomena we see around us. It might feel satisfying to posit a over-arching connection between all these suspicious events, but the fiction you have to invent to form the foundation of these connections (the Illuminati) is so much MORE DIFFICULT to explain than the events themselves that you end up having to do far more explanatory work than you started out with.
Posted by TheOrator 4 years ago
the American government predicted an attack on the twin towers as well, they were a huge target for terrorists at the time.
Posted by TrueJustice 4 years ago
u do realize that zionism is a form of nationalism amongst the jewish culture right?
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by BennyW 4 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Due to multiple forfeits, pro was unable to fully present his argument.
Vote Placed by vmpire321 4 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF